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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 4:04:15 PM

Aneirin

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quote:

Unitarian Universalist

WTF is that ?

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 4:12:26 PM

thornhappy

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From Wiki:
Unitarian Universalism (UUism) is a theologically liberal religion characterized by its support for a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning." Unitarian Universalists do not share a creed; rather, they are unified by their shared search for spiritual growth. Unitarian Universalists draw on many different theological sources and have a wide range of beliefs and practices.

I've been to a few UU services and found this to be accurate.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 4:20:23 PM

philosophy

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FR

Story Update...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090531/ap_on_re_us/us_tiller_shooting
......so they have a suspect in custody. i was also heartened to hear that anti-abortion groups were quick to condemn this murder.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 6:16:35 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Hiya Tim,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Yep all religions are dangerous, especially those Taoist and Buddhist. ;)

Hi Orion,

I know you're joking, of course, but it's an important point and one avoided in our society.

I'm an atheist (neither Taoism nor Buddhism recogize gods), but I respect others' beliefs. When applied positively, theistic beliefs can support good communities and well-examined ethical lives. These are admirable contributions.

It is the application and definition of morals that determine the positive and negative. We both know that at the root, is personal responsibility. Too many are willing to give that up for an ideal, whether it is religion, philosophy, or a belief. It is when these are taken to extremes that mankind has a problem.

quote:

But when used to intervene in society, we have essentially people who hear voices, or who believe the books they read were written by people who heard voices, or that their leaders hear voices, and those people are dangerous, whatever the voices say.

Not necessarily, it depends on what the voice says. Carl Jung's work may describe this as a manifestation of part of the sub-conscious, guiding the person. I have meditated and "heard voices", the difference is that I realize it is a part of myself that has been brought forward, that this "voice" is actually a sensory and rationalization of my mind that interprets the message from my sub-conscious.

quote:

Sorry to put it so starkly, but when "God's will" is the heart of both policy and actions defying that policy as it appears in law, the stakes are high, and the "faithful" become criminal (and illogical, since the rest of the voice-hearing faithful received different messages).

I believe this to be a different issue. There should be a difference between personal belief, and public service. If someone cannot seperate the two, then they should not swear an oath to do so.

quote:

If only society could arrive at their ethical codes through logical means rather than indoctrination or whim, we could have meaningful debates--and a fair, just, yes, even moral (as distinct from the broader ethics) society, where the faithful could again focus on positive contribution instead of self-righteous disruption.

The hand of mankind is involved too much, and it is more difficult for each person to find their own path. There are more distractions to draw us externally, than contemplative introspection that may lead to what you describe. I attempt to know myself better each day, but I still have a temper and a sometimes use physical violence to resolve an issue. I believe there will always be some things in mankind that draw them to "believe" more in the external, than themselves. It is my belief that if it ever occurs, we will have made an evolutionary progression so that we would be something other than what we perceive as human today.

Live well,
Orion

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 6:37:01 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

The space shuttle landed, so my house was rattled by a double-clap sonic boom.
My house was rattled by a double-clap sonic boom, so I knew the space shuttle came in to land.

A belief system that denies god, still has a belief about god.

No, not logically. A sonic boom is not solely caused by a space shuttle.

SOME statements are also true conversely, but not automatically. To say that A causes B does not mean B causes A.

To support that a lack of a belief constitutes a belief system is silly in an infinite sense. I don't believe an elephant serves as your typist, but that's not a factor in my ethical, political, social stances.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 6:44:04 PM

TheHeretic

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       It was the "some statements" I was going for, and the variety of sonic boom the shuttle creates is distinct, and (so far) unique.

      To specifically be an atheist, and specifically deny the existence of God, is to hold a certain belief about God. No different than saying Satan worshipers are still squarely within the Christian sphere of belief.

      Now if we ask how many have been killed in the name of agnosticism, that might be another matter.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 6:51:38 PM

Musicmystery

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Then again, you would have a belief about an infinite number of things you don't believe.

It's a silly claim, and meaningful only to the believers, who feel the distinction matters.

I don't believe in fairies either, but that doesn't seem significant to anyone.

Nor do I take action simply because I don't subscribe to theism.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/31/2009 7:09:53 PM >

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 7:14:58 PM

Sanity

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So, if A Christian kills A late term abortion provider, that is evidence that we need to ban all religion. But when a handful of Atheists murders hundreds of millions of people, that's just a cloud of smoke.

?

And I don't think that communism is anything anyone wants back either. At least, not those who have tasted it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Much more specifically, it's government by economics--just like capitalism.

There's a logic error here too--the converse of a cause and effect statement.

The space shuttle was launched, so we saw a cloud of smoke.
A saw a cloud of smoke, so the space shuttle was launched.

The second does not necessarily follow from the first.

Incidentally--Divine Right of Kings isn't something anyone seems to want back.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 5/31/2009 7:18:30 PM >

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 7:17:38 PM

breatheasone

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quote:

ORIGINAL:Sanity,

So, A Christian kills A late term abortion provider is evidence that we need to ban all religion. But when a handful of Atheists murders hundreds of millions of people, that's just a cloud of smoke.

?

Interesting point.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 7:24:16 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

So, if A Christian kills A late term abortion provider, that is evidence that we need to ban all religion. But when a handful of Atheists murders hundreds of millions of people, that's just a cloud of smoke.

?

Nope. Said no such thing. Never even addressed others raising such points.

If you wish to raise the point afresh--plenty of people of all backgrounds have done plenty of killing for thousands of years.

The original concern raised in the thread was someone killing as a result of their extreme interpretation of religious beliefs, perhaps using violence as a means of terrorizing others to act in accordance with those views.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/31/2009 7:27:05 PM >

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 7:26:32 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

FR

Story Update...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090531/ap_on_re_us/us_tiller_shooting
......so they have a suspect in custody. i was also heartened to hear that anti-abortion groups were quick to condemn this murder.

Willlllllnowwwwww...are you saying that there is a very very very slight chance that anti-abortionist Christian groups may not be terrorists after all...!!!!?

Butch

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 7:30:22 PM

janiebelle

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FR

Recent cases of abortion-related violence

By The Associated Press –31 May, 2009

A look at recent cases of abortion-related violence:

_ May 31, 2009: Prominent late-term abortion provider George Tiller is shot and killed in a Wichita church where he was serving as an usher. The gunman fled but a city official said a suspect is in custody.

_ April 2007: Authorities say Paul Ross Evans placed a homemade bomb in the parking lot of the Austin Women's Health Center in Texas. A bomb squad disposes of the device, which contained two pounds of nails. There are no injuries.

_ Oct. 23, 1998: Dr. Barnett Slepian is fatally shot in his home in a suburb of Buffalo, N.Y. Militant abortion opponent James Kopp is convicted of the murder in 2003 and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison.

_ Jan. 29, 1998: A bomb explodes just outside a Birmingham, Ala., abortion clinic, killing a police officer and wounding several others. Eric Rudolph later pleads guilty to that incident and the deadly bombing at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta. He justifies the Alabama bombing in an essay from prison, writing that Jesus would condone "militant action in defense of the innocent."

_ Jan. 16, 1997: Two bomb blasts an hour apart rock an Atlanta building containing an abortion clinic. Seven people are injured. Rudolph is charged by federal authorities in October 1998.

_ Dec. 30, 1994: John Salvi opens fire with a rifle inside two Boston-area abortion clinics, killing two receptionists and wounding five others. Sentenced to life without parole, he kills himself in prison in 1996.

_ Nov. 8, 1994: Dr. Garson Romalis, who performs abortions in Vancouver, Canada, is shot in the leg while eating breakfast at home.

_ July 29, 1994: Dr. John Bayard Britton and his volunteer escort, James H. Barrett, are slain outside a Pensacola, Fla., abortion clinic. Barrett's wife, June, is wounded in the attack. Paul J. Hill, 40, a former minister and anti-abortion activist, is later convicted of murder and sentenced to death.

_ Aug. 19, 1993: Dr. George Tiller is shot in the arms as he drives out of parking lot at his Wichita, Kan., clinic. Rachelle "Shelley" Shannon is later convicted and sentenced to 11 years in prison.

_ March 10, 1993: Dr. David Gunn is shot to death outside Pensacola, Fla., clinic, becoming the first U.S. doctor killed during an anti-abortion demonstration. Michael Griffin is convicted and serving a life sentence.
*****************************************************************************************

So, even using this "recent" list from the AP, the frequency of these assaults is ten in 15+ years. Is this even statisticly significant? Or just an aberration of a few seriously bunged up individuals who make a lucky shot now and then?
j

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 7:31:45 PM

MissSepphora1

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Why don't you try your hardest to piss people off over something you don't even know for sure?

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Apparently not. Wouldn't it be surprising if the killing turned out to have nothing to do with his work? A jealous husband or something?

...actually, i hope it does turn out that way. However, i'm a bit pessimistic about it.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 7:44:09 PM

RealGirl4One

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While I don't condone this killing, I'm not going to be a hipocritical and shed any crocodile tears either. Tiller made a fortune off his exeution-style late-term abortion clinic. His affairs including some nefarious wheels & deals.

kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius benefited from Tiller's largesse in contributing to her election campaigns. And it seems that one hand washed the other and he would have been in line for a stint in the big house or at the very least revocation of his license to practice medicine had it not been for the protection services provided by Sebelius.

Assuming that this is some Christian terrorist plan is not really fair is it? We dont know if the gunman acted alone or what his motivation was. To lay this at the feet of persons "into" religion is oversimplyfying IMO.

Had it not been for protection services provided by then-Governor Sebelius, Tiller might have been held accountable earlier for his less than stellar performance. Records and sonograms were 'adjusted' to allow for an abortion as requested, among other things.

You who label this as you have are as fanatical as the people you point your finger at.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 7:50:04 PM

sleazybutterfly

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I for one am not surprised that anti-abortion groups condemn the killing. It only hurts their cause by putting into peoples minds the belief that all people who are against abortion are extreme in their view and could pull a gun any moment.

I am extreme in my view against abortion, but in no way could I ever go and hunt someone down and take them out. One person's life to me is as valuable as the next. Do I hate what they are doing? Yes. Do I want them to stop? Yes. Do I want to face God one day if I decide to take the life of someone else in such a way? NO.

I assume it will come out that he has justified it in his mind in some way. I suppose by the loss of so many innocent lives one could probably do that if they had a leaning toward being violent in the first place. To me, it's no different than mass killings of the past centuries, it's just tied up with a pretty lil bow and legal.

I feel for the family of the man that was killed, for his children, his grandchildren. Nothing justifies taking someone they love away from them. In the end, it's all murder, killing, and a horrible thing no matter what side of the aisle you sit on.

All life is precious, even the life of a murderer...we all matter to someone. (though I am sure I will get slammed for that thought)

SB

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 8:32:57 PM

Crush

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definitely a "man made disaster"

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 8:40:35 PM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrPBK

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
And though off topic, how about this for a wacky thought, the truth that we all seek, is not in any one belief, but is scattered amongst the world's beliefs.

What your quoting is exceptionally Unitarian Universalist; it is by no means wacky.

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA

A large number of Quakers believe something similar as well.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 8:58:55 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Why don't you try your hardest to piss people off over something you don't even know for sure?

MissS, trust me on this, Phil is NOT trying his hardest to piss people off.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 9:13:05 PM

cadenas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

FR

Recent cases of abortion-related violence

By The Associated Press –31 May, 2009

A look at recent cases of abortion-related violence:

_ May 31, 2009: Prominent late-term abortion provider George Tiller is shot and killed in a Wichita church where he was serving as an usher. The gunman fled but a city official said a suspect is in custody.
_ April 2007:
_ Oct. 23, 1998:
_ Jan. 29, 1998:
_ Jan. 16, 1997:
_ Dec. 30, 1994:
_ Nov. 8, 1994:
_ July 29, 1994:
_ Aug. 19, 1993:
_ March 10, 1993:
*****************************************************************************************

So, even using this "recent" list from the AP, the frequency of these assaults is ten in 15+ years. Is this even statisticly significant? Or just an aberration of a few seriously bunged up individuals who make a lucky shot now and then?
j

Very significant. Terrorism is, almost by definition, a rare event. 9/11 was preceded by 8 years of NOTHING in the USA (there were other incidents internationally). And I believe the 1993 WTC bombing was the first ever on US soil by a Muslim group.

Oklahoma City was a rare event. Also not completely singular.

And the other pattern of the AP list is also interesting (assuming that this list is more or less complete): a LOT of activity from 1993 to 1998. Then a nine-year lull (in part likely because of 9/11). And now again two events relatively close together.

So, yes, I think this list is quite interesting and relevant.

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RE: christian terrorism? - 5/31/2009 11:54:14 PM

RCdc

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I know people are jumping on the possibility that the killer was a christian, that this was christian terrorism, how shocking blahblahblah.
Most people seem to be ignoring the issue that the Dr. was one too and that he was killed at his church.

But it is always more convienient to focus on one rather than the other.

the.dark.

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