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RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 1:32:06 PM   
seaturtle50


Posts: 382
Joined: 12/28/2005
Status: offline 		This is to me, one of the more interesting threads that i have read to date.

Newbie wanna-be slave-boy perspective here.

quote:

What I didn't get until much more recently, was the threat that sort of dynamic posed to the "relationship image" of the those who indulged in the romantic M/s paradigm.


i am highly drawn to the ideal of being owned by my Domina, and i also hold the hopes of "romantic" aspects of passionate love between Her and i <or at least of me towards Her> close to my heart. i see my ultimate goal to be the surrender of myself, to One Domina, as Her personal property and within the boundaries of Her known limits. Meaning, the time for me to decide if Her limits are appropriate for me is before said surrender/Claiming of my self.

i have hope and dreams that are my own, those shall be deferred to Hers at the time of ownership. i think the following quote by Ms. Jasmyn is perfect in it's description of my notions regarding romantic love in a D/s, M/s relationship. (Although in fairness i must say i do not understand or necessarily agree with the gender mix's that followed the quote)

quote:

I often discussed d/s dynamics falling into two categories, reciprocal love and non-reciprocal love ... the former mutual love needs to be present, the latter the bottom may love deeply their owner but would never expect a similar love in return, a fondness absolutely, but not love in a conventional sense.


Also, i could never, in any dynamic whatsoever not view my Domina as my superior. That will not happen.

quote:

Now, a lifelong ownership deal, would be with someone I loved, in love with, having him take my name in marriage.

The lifelong ownership of forever fits a great deal with the non superior mistress/master/sub/slave dynamic ... my slaves I have the superior dynamic with, the man I love, we will have the non superior dynamic.


So, what is my intended contribution here? i am of the mind that once i offer my self, and i am accepted/claimed by Her, what happens after that is really none of my business. That is the complete business of my Domina. my time for evaluating contractual terms, length of service, kink computability, being kept for the entire length of any contract in place, being loaned out, being sold, etc., are all now entirely Her prerogative.

i suppose i will always have a fail-safe panic button to use <requesting my release> but i also think that by the time i am committed to submit, i will prefer to not use it, unless it became an absoulte must.

Would it hurt me <emotionally> if she were to send me away in five hours or five days? Of course! Will i cry and not want to go if she chooses to loan me out - i am sure i will. Would i want that for myself? No! <Sorry for use of the "N" word ;-). Especially if i have developed a love for Her, as i am already certain i will before submitting myself as slave.

i do have a hard time understanding why there seems to be a common trait amongst some submissives that somehow such emotional pains caused are differnet and even "not permitted by the sub" than the pain found at the end of the whip. Any pains delivered to me shall be done at the sole discretion of my Domina, as is Her perfect right.

It is to me, Her business. So will i be owned property? Yes. Will it be forever? i will let You know after i see what she has in mind for me.

st50


_____________________________

i want to be your ... #1 lowest common denominator.

Destiny happens in a moment ... in the blink of an eye.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 1:35:27 PM   
iheartperverts


Posts: 15
Joined: 1/30/2006
Status: offline 		You've given me a great deal to think about, so thanks.

If I were ever to involve myself in an M/s relationship, I believe I'd like it to be a permanent situation. Like most people, I find long-term security and stability appealing. I don't think that takes away from or outshadows someone who was owned for a few months. Just because I'd like to be owned forever by one person does not negate the validity of short-term relationships. I also doubt being owned forever would affect the M/s dynamic in a personal relationship of my own. Of course, I can't vouch for others.

I think to answer most of your questions, I'd have to have a more clear definition of ownership for myself and honestly, I haven't thought about it enough.

I think(think being the key word) that it would take longer than a few hours for me to perceive myself as being owned. And I think that seeing myself as an owned slaved would be a major part of actually being an owned slave? I don't know. Maybe you've just got mad skills that threaten other people who disagree? ;)

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 1:35:39 PM   
orfunboi


Posts: 1223
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline 		i wouldn't give a whole lot of thought to someone like that. Pretty much in any group of people, you will find those who feel their way is the only way on any topic imaginable. You either agree with them or your fake or damned or pitiful and stupid. i try to ignore them, but sometimes it can be hard.

As far as how long a relationship you should seek, that depends on your wants and needs. As far as me, i can only think of one women who i could happily spend the rest of my life and thats rare. People are built different and what works for one will not for another.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 1:39:23 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline


quote:

Why is any of this even important?


Because it allows people to read other perspectives, to see things in a fresh and different way, perhaps open their own mind and to ask questions of themselves. For those who may be new, it gives a variety of options from where to start their own path, or the choice to discard them all because they have thought of something better already. The reason it keeps being brought up is because the debate of definitions has been an on-line pastime for BDSMer's and D/ser's since the Internet began. Many of us were in the closet for so long that to have a venue to express our hopes, fears, desires and yes, even how we define things is novel and new, despite the age that the Internet is beginning to be, so it's taken advantage of to it's full extent. There was no Internet when I started in BDSM, no munches, certainly no national events much less other kinks, pervs, deviants and what-have-you's with whom to discuss issues or ideas which were close to our heart. The best you could hope for were a few scattered BBS's with mostly guys looking for JO material.

Without taking everything in that we can, and looking for that 'fit,' we might miss something which we discover we love. Imagine if Mozart had only wanted to play with his hoops and sticks and never discovered music.. or Einstein took up the culinary arts rather than the vocation of science. Without exploration, we stagnant, and perhaps miss out on what can be our greatest achievements.


quote:

Relationships are personal between the people in them. Trying to determine what perameters they fit in, is a path that leads nowhere.


Or it can lead to wonders beyond imagination, discovery's of untold enrichment or the satisfaction that you are where you need to be and need not move from that spot.

In the end, Caitlyn, you, too, put your two cents in for a reason, reiterating that relationships are personal between the people in them even though that's something of which most are aware. I wonder why you felt compelled to point that out. For you, perhaps, trying to determine where someone else fits may, indeed, be a path which leads no where, but for others, it is the light bulb that springs the idea for their own path.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 1:39:26 PM   
seaturtle50


Posts: 382
Joined: 12/28/2005
Status: offline
quote:

A slave is owned whether you put her in an office all day doing paperwork, or put her on a table getting fucked by 30 guys with chainsaws.


i hereby nominate the above quote for the CM quote of the year award!



st50

_____________________________

i want to be your ... #1 lowest common denominator.

Destiny happens in a moment ... in the blink of an eye.

(in reply to orfunboi)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 1:53:45 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The thing is I have not said that temporary ownership is not possible yet you continue to attribute that to me.
I have said that 5 hours and 5 days even if you have total control of them does not meet the definition of ownership. lacking the open endedness of ownership that I, I, I, I, find is a definative aspect. So YOUR version ownership does not meet MY definition.
The rest is a matter of attempting to find a common definition.

If you didn't recognize that was the entire line of the post that's not my fault, it's the fault of you assigning motivations to me that were not based on fact.
Multiple instances of you claiming I made no allowance for temproary ownership when I had not made such a claim at all I had made the claim that 5 hour or 5 days simply don't meet the definition.

Ownership: control of something without encumbrances or limitations
Qualified Ownership: Ownership that is limited by time TIME the interest of another party or restrictions on the use of the property.

So yes there is a type of ownership but it is Qualified (limited).


As for not interested in owning the mind and or heart, then you don't own the entire thing only part of it the rest remains owned by them.
How do you reconcile that?

In Leather

Archer

(in reply to orfunboi)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 1:55:27 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

It is a rather common notion (held by at least a few, probably many, and possibly most of the denizens of this community) that when a Master takes a slave, it only be done with the intent of making that relationship work over a very long time. "Owning" a slave is akin to traditional matrimony, and should be given at least as much respect (if not more) than that old weather-beaten institution.

This concept of "ownership" has always baffled me, and when I would present my idea of what ownership would be, I was quite astonished to find the ferocity of the defense of "ownership" as stated above. When I wrote of my desire to own a slave for a very short period of times (from mere hours to a few months) I was told that this was not "ownership" it was merely "borrowing". I was called a RolePlayer (as though that were some sort of insult, though I think that everyone plays many roles, some more seriously than others). I was told I only wanted to own a slave temporarily because I had a fear of commitment, or I hadn't found what I wanted, and that I would never really know the true joys of a Master/slave relationship until I owned a slave with the intent of owning her forever. I was told of the emotional hardships that Masters such as myself had caused on unexpecting newbie slaves.

Again, I was baffled by this response. Why did the simple idea that ownership could be ownership even if it was not forever so threaten those who held an opposing notion? Why was it so impossible for them to accept that there could be more than one kind of ownership, and that temporary ownership was as valid as long-term ownership? And then I thought about it from the "slaves" perspective...

Being "owned" (if it is forever) really isn't the risky proposition that being "owned" (in what I see as the traditional sense) would be. Knowing that you will not be sold, traded, or given away (or even returned after six months of use) gives the slave a comfort and security that rivals the happiest of marriages. Defining "ownership" as something different when refering to slaves, allows them to control the relationship.

So this made me question who is really playing at ownership, and who is really exercising it. If ownership is only ownership when it is forever, who owns whom? Would you buy a car knowing that you could never sell it, return it, or give it away? Would such a purchase make you the owner of the car, or the car the owner of you?

So by comparing real "ownership" (with its ability to sell, trade, or give away) to the "lifelong ownership", it reveals that in the typically accepted definition of Master/slave relationships, it is indeed the slave that is in possesion of the Master (and I thought it was supposed to be the other way round, silly me). Obviously, such a revelation is unacceptable, and must be battled, repressed, denied, and condemend (at least before all those "Masters" think about it too much *smile*).

Ownership has always been my primary kink. So much so, that much of what I desire doing to my slave revolves around the proof of said ownership. I would loan my slave out to those I trusted, because you can't loan something out that is not yours. I would sell my slave or trade my slave for another, as you can not sell or trade that which you do not own. I would test the limits of ownership, just to prove to myself that it was real. It is what drives me in this lifestyle.

I just never understood how this could be threatening to others...but I think I am beginning to get it.

Thoughts?

Taggard


G'day Taggard,

I've sat back and brooded over this and admittedly have not read all the replies. What yopu talk about regarding ownership be it permamant or temporary has been the subject of debate I've been involved in with others both on and off line.

For me, I believe that when a slave is collared, she becomes (consensually) owned and thus the property of her owner (Master or Mistress) for the duration be it short term or long term. I do understand what LA is saying regarding the romantic attachment and hopes of many slaves with the view of it being as a marriage and lasting for life. However slaves should understand (unless specifically stated prior to their collering) that there are no guarantees and they could be traded or sold. This is even mire definitive (I believe) in the Gorean Lifestyle.

If I were again in the possition where a slave formed a romantic attachment with another Dominant and it was agree by all, being Gorean (and a good Scot), insteead of just releasing her so her love person can recollar himself, I'd be negotiating her sale at a suitable price. Now in some aspects this is illegal except that it is consensual and the sale is an agreed (by all parties) event. The sale in fact could be seen by some as the new owner reimbursine me for items I had bought for the slave to have whilst in my collar and which I would have no further use for.



_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 2:22:32 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
In the end, Caitlyn, you, too, put your two cents in for a reason, reiterating that relationships are personal between the people in them even though that's something of which most are aware. I wonder why you felt compelled to point that out. For you, perhaps, trying to determine where someone else fits may, indeed, be a path which leads no where, but for others, it is the light bulb that springs the idea for their own path.


You are completely right ... who am I to say that people shouldn't engage in endless banal mindfucking of issues where there will never be agreement.

I totally respect your opinion Celeste ... you are actually one of my favorite posters. That said we will have to agree to not agree on this issue.

I don't think talking or thinking this out helps anyone "fit" into anything. People "work" together, as a function of their gifts, balanced with maturity.

I actually see danger in these collective points of view designed to help other "think", in that people will naturally try to fit themselves into groups they really don't fit in ... just to fit in. I wonder how many, "owned slaves" we have on here, that are really what they are because of the positive lifestyle stigma attached to it ... or because it's really cool feeling owned?

Let me use a personal example, which I hate to do on here, but in this instance ...

I probably don't fit into any of the categories here. I'm not an owned slave, but the thought of it sure sounds cool to me. I'm not a real submissive, but the thought of it sure sounds cool to me. I could probably convince myself that I do fit into one or both of those groups. I could probably actually shoe-horn myself into one of them ... I'm not the least attractive girl on Earth ... but none of that changes the reality that I can't even keep a boyfriend for more than a few weeks. Truth be told, I don't listen to anyone, and have a pretty low level of relationship maturity. Oh, what a great fucking slave or sub I would make!!!!! I feel sorry for the poor guy, and I don't even know him yet.

So, we can agree to not agree, and hopefully do it respectfully. I think these conversation hurt more than they help ... because they mask the real reasons you get in a realtionship in the first place ... THE OTHER PERSON IN THE RELATIONSHIP.

Thanks for reading ... and sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 2/17/2006 2:25:12 PM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 2:40:38 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		To me this is very simple, ownership implies you can sell or give something away. obviously you can't do that if there is a time limit imposed.

For example let's say you acquire a "slave" for 5 hours. You can't then give that slave away to someone else for a lifetime. Since you lack control of the person after the 5 hours. So, since your future rights over the person are limited to a set period of time ownership never occurred. Control occured, but not ownership. Since, if you own something you can give it away without restriction. Admittedly, in your example you can't do somethings with the person, so you never owned them.

Name one thing that a person can own that can't be given away permanently and I'll agree with your stand point. But it doesn't exist, except in your mind in regards to slave ownership. So, you can agree to have a slave and then give them away 5 hours later permanently, if the contract stated they were yours without a time limit. But if a time limit was in the contract you'd have no right to do so. Therefore, since you don't have the power to give them away permanently, you are not the owner to begin with.

Ownership implies the option of permanent control

This definition sums it up well(Ownership is the socially supported power to exclusively control and use for one's own purposes, that which is owned. Definitions of it are closely tied to definitions of wealth, private or public. )

What you are stating is the same as "renting", or "leasing". You can call it slavery if you like, but any definition of slavery infers a permanent state of control over a person until the master choices to release or transfer that control to another. In terms of short-term contracts to use a slave, you have no permanent rights, and therefore no ownership. Short-term rights to use something, is not ownership. I don't own the videos from the video store I rent, I don't own the warehouse I rent, I own the shirt on my back, and will until I throw it away(release), or give it away(permanent transfer). Upon death the shirt would transfer ownership to the person I designated in my will, then they have permanent control over it.

That aside...
But, slavery in BDSM is all made up anyway. Illusions of rights and control are not real. So, you are just messing with peoples own role-playing at the core of it, by devaluing the weight of the importance they put into there contract. Slavery is more akin to a grown-up version of make-believe. Some make believe more intensely than others. You are on the low-end of the scale, and see that it really is nothing more than play acting and so state why can't I play act for 5 hours instead of a life-time. Others, will be on the high-end of the scale and self-impose the validity of there slave contract to a higher regard. So, it really doesn't make a difference, but everyone is free here, there are absolutely no real ownership rights ever given or taken by anyone in BDSM. A court will never accept a BDSM slave contract as valid enslavement. And thus there are no penalties for breaking it, and therefore it isn't enforcable. So, this whole discussion is for nothing. But if it were real, your concept of time-limited ownership isn't possible. It's a lease. Sorry

A slave let's her master tell her to go screw 30 chainsaws, she just rationalizes she didn't have a decision because she role-plays that she doesn't have a choice, but in reality she does it because she decides to do it. Whatever, reason she elected to do it, and has someone else to pretend to be making her do it is another discusion.

Thanks.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 2:50:56 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

So, we can agree to not agree, and hopefully do it respectfully.


Absolutely!

I'll add my own personal experience to this as well. When I first got into BDSM there was no such thing as a Dom/sub relationship. There were only Masters and slaves. A Master 'was' on top and a slave 'was' on the bottom, so when the terms Dom/sub came along, I was clueless on what it meant and had to have it explained to me. Dominant and submissive were adjectives not nouns and it's not something I could wrap my brains around for the longest time. I soon discovered that there were other people who considered Top/Master/Dominant to be different levels, each word having a distinct place in some sort of mythical hierarchy of BDSM.

Things used to be simpler :) Anyway, only through continued discourse could I truly understand that how I viewed myself was not so much as a 'way' of doing BDSM, but that it was 'my' way of doing BDSM. In the old days, there pretty much was 'a' way of doing everything, albeit I'm sure different geography's had their 'own' way. Not everyone does things 'my' way.. most do it all wrong. ::chuckles:: Ok, that's said tongue in cheek, but my point is that dialogue did help me change my view and allow for a differing perspective.. that it is OK for others to do things their way, ::even though it's wrong.. lol:: because their way doesn't effect 'my' way and my way doesn't effect theirs. By knowing theirs however, it's enabled me to incorporate things which are new and different and refine and tweak how I think of myself so that what I thought of 'me' 24 years ago, is not how I think of myself today and that is growth and for me, growth is good. :)

Celeste

P.S. I like your postings as well.. you've got spunk. :)

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 2:57:58 PM   
GingerleeDREAD


Posts: 103
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever...

Ahhh My wonderful footed Dominant, how good to see You again!
Id like a *stab* at just what Ownership means to Me and those like
Me who take Our Positions and Dominance and Ownership quite
seriously just as You do. The phenomenon of permanent ownership
in the vanilla D/s mono relationships were, well to put it bluntly, arrived
on the scene as computers did and when Our lifestyle was * invaded * by
the vanilla crowd and D/s that have tempted in a few short years to
bend what We consider the norm in a M/s or Owner / object relationship
to their liking. Dominance sets the scene, pushes the limits, finds an object
willing to partake of the alternate ways with the Dominant and agrees to any
Limit be it a moment of simple Knott tying or a lifetime of bowing and
begging beside other chained objects.
slaves = objects = surrendering everything of self to another if only for a
second, a moment, a minute, a hour, a day, a month, a year or for a lifetime.
Ownership of a possession does not always mean for a lifetime and any human
who chooses to take up the position of a consensual slave knows that they are
giving up ALL CHOICE in what happens with in their life’s and in doing so simply
enjoys what’s presented to them at any given time giving up all to the One who
has taken control of such a possession for its use and pleasure. Of course Dominance
Has its responsibilities to and any who are real Masters or Mistresses of such a role
Would not use abuse and throw away a possession, no on the contrary it has value and
Can be exchanged or gave away or bartered to a slave market if no longer desired and
This act is as natural to consensual slavery as it service to those whom are deemed to
Be the Ones being served or who will be the Dominant or Owner. Now there are many just
becoming aware of this alternate lifestyle who see only the romantic/ sexual side of possibilities
Of what’s presented of it not understanding fully what they commit their self’s to
until its to late and they have learned a hard lesson at the cost of their own giving of
feelings. I go back to Our rules, regulations and protocols practiced for the past
60 years or so right here in the USA that held each of Us in OUR rightful positions
chosen to follow thru on such desires and positions held and only expecting
the enjoyment of such when it comes to Us and ever striving for its continued rights
in that which We sit naturally. many have a submissive nature and that’s ok there
are by nature many followers and a few leaders and the followers must always
remember that the road is not traveled just by one but many and Our lifestyle
is nonconformist for a reason and is called alternate for a reason and that reason is
that it does not follow the norms of society, the norms of the religious current affair,
the politically correct effect of the times at hand and any who comes here thinking
this is what is at the end of the rainbow has never traveled on our rainbows rays
and were not aware that a bed of nails waits at the other end. Defining what is acceptable
to Us is the most hardest and rewarding endeavor in this lifestyle that We will ever take on.
How many slaves are aware that most any Owner of slaves has open door policies to their
Homes and Domains that would take in any slave that for the moment was not owned and
Out in the streets so to speak needing a place to again find its self and serving soul ?
How many slaves here travel from one city to the next in service to Owners as so many
That are within My Circles do enjoying their service in consensual slavery to all Owners and
Dominants ? Finding one who is like minded in that endeavor is even more elusive and it is Our
Values, Honor and Integrity that doesn’t allow Us to use and abuse any alone that path
to finding Our nitch within and if as a slave you find that you seek a long term relationship
with One Dominant Owner I would tell you to take a step back and reevaluate yourselves because Ownership is never secularly forever for any possession. We gain possessions enjoy them while they are new and shinny and use them as We see fit and either wear them down to a comfortable fit and keep them in a corner till needed or as Our throw away society has so well taught Us get rid of that which no longer fits our tastes and go find another new shinny few to enjoy while its still exciting and fiery and wiggles with a not to comfortable ass that is keen to giving all in that service to for a moment feel that inner contentment of ownership and use for that is what a slave is all about in their slavery, giving of self with out any limits or grasps. If a slave earns a place within a Dominants mind, body and soul at that point They might be willing to grab hold of such and Own it for a lifetime, however about 98 percent of Owners of slaves believe in a temporary thing and most will use contracts to secure such for the short and long term as
well as make it clear upfront that the one being taken possession of will not be the only one becoming a object owned and most Owners have many possessions that serves specific purposes to the Owners with one in no way being able to provide all that a Owner desires in the various possessions. There are 97 male slaves and 22 female slaves in this world who have on them either My brand or tattoo for service to Me well done and wear such permanent earned marks proudly however their slavery to Me was but one step on the road of their paths of slavery’s service and I have lifetime slaves and I have short term slaves and I even have slaves who are at My beckon call in different cities and countries if I need a possession to do a scene with at a group setting and all are My possessions at the point I take possession of them and become My slave and all serve as slave to Me with out expectations other then to be used in their slavery and be put to good use their objectification of self for My desire as a Dominant Owner and satisfaction. Neither side be they Owner or possession become such to harm nor hurt one another nor do either put them self’s in the position to be such as might happen in a vanilla, straight correctly lived mono life which none here live or are looking for ( unless your REALLY not a slave or even a submissive but simply want another to take care of you. We know who you are ~wink~). Living any extreme alternate lifestyle come with the extreme alternate ways and folks and if you question if this is you or you tempt to blame any of Us for how We are naturally or call Us abusive for doing what’s considered * RIGHT* in Our ways then it is you who have been led by self in the wrong direction of what you desire and it be best you take a ninety degree and don’t let the door hit cha on the back side running out it and away as fast as you can and take full responsibility for self and where you as an adult are at with self and with others and either head back to the D/s lot or the
Vanilla road of monopoly. Ha, what a game! JMO ( waves to Sexy Struttin Taggard )
quote:

ownership implies you can sell or give something away. obviously you can't do that if there is a time limit imposed.
oh contrar Need, this defines the differance in concensual slavery and nonconcensual slavery and the fine line that We all walk in the applications of what We practice in Our alternate lifestyles. I as a Owner could at that moment of Ownership state to the slave in posession
to avail itsself to the slave market for perminant sale to a Owner and at
this point either the slave will obey as its posession regulates it to do such or not taking that concensuality part and applying it to the lifestyle
We live's proticals. will the slave be fullfilled in its service to the Owner if it does not follow thru on its commands ? more then likely not and feel
remorse in not being able to serve properly. Will the Owner be satisfied
in the slaves service not doing as commanded ? Of course not for it has
broke the service and no Owner is satisfied in such actions. JMO again
as weird as it sounds to the masses. ( Im Gorean and a little more extream in My beliefs and applications of concensual slavery and ownership then many of the M/s types of Ownerships. )



_____________________________

"My inner children are all mean little fuckers"
"Get inbetween' em and youll get hogtied, hitched up, n hacked"

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 3:01:56 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

And here is the real crux of the issue, no? I couldn't care less about owning the heart and mind, I want to own the slave. Your heart and mind ownership is very romantic, and works for a great many people, but it does not allow for my kind of ownership...why?



This sums up everything. You own the slave but not her heart and mind? So basically you just own her body. So basically you just want a girl to fuck and hand off?

i don't mean to be so crude (well i must mean to be or else i wouldn't have been). i asked a question early on about the slave's well being - mentally, emotionally, etc. It went unanswered. You just answered it here, however.

It's been an interesting thread none-the-less. By the way, i have no doubt - i know for certain - that my Master owns me. If he had to prove it, he wouldn't really own me as there would be doubt involved...otherwise, why the need for proof?

Regardless, have fun with what you are doing, and call it what you want to call it. my concern about all of it, from the beginning, is the apparent disregard for the well being of those you are using.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 3:28:07 PM   
Fawne


Posts: 462
Status: offline 		An interesting thread. Thanks for the 4 o'clock brain teaser with coffee, people ! ;)

In agreement and rejection.

- Life is leased. "Ownership" of even ones own material body exists only to an extent. No one can deny: we humans lack ultimate control. All will someday "surrender".

- On OwnershipMsDsSMwhatever: Quote: (thetammyjo, TY)

" If I wanted risk on an emotional or psychological level, I'd force myself to be vanilla"

Whatever for? SM with MsDswhatever combine both.
Keep that proverbial cake and feast as well.

Why in the world do people deny the possiblity that 'whatever' cannot combine ownership/love/marriage and permanance*?

Rare, yes: but we have 'specimans' <g> here to dissect.
I personally experience DswithSM and it works for me.
Physically + emotionally. (humble grace, TY)

Curious...... fawne

*Again- the term 'permanance' is nearly irrelevant, our reality-a dynamic universe.




(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 3:34:58 PM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		Have you ever stopped and thought that maybe, just maybe, ownership isn't about love and romantic envolvement? That it about service over your sexual wants and desires? That it's about the person being of service to another and not having to love them or them loving you.
No where in this quote:
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
And here is the real crux of the issue, no? I couldn't care less about owning the heart and mind, I want to own the slave. Your heart and mind ownership is very romantic, and works for a great many people, but it does not allow for my kind of ownership...why?

Did Taggard say this:
quote:

So basically you just want a girl to fuck and hand off?

Nor is it implied anywhere that I have seen.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 4:09:58 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


... because they mask the real reasons you get in a realtionship in the first place ... THE OTHER PERSON IN THE RELATIONSHIP.


'Relationship' itself has a thousand meanings—especially here.



< Message edited by amayos -- 2/17/2006 4:41:41 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 4:15:15 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

An interesting thread. Thanks for the 4 o'clock brain teaser with coffee, people ! ;)

In agreement and rejection.

- Life is leased. "Ownership" of even ones own material body exists only to an extent. No one can deny: we humans lack ultimate control. All will someday "surrender".

- On OwnershipMsDsSMwhatever: Quote: (thetammyjo, TY)

" If I wanted risk on an emotional or psychological level, I'd force myself to be vanilla"

Whatever for? SM with MsDswhatever combine both.
Keep that proverbial cake and feast as well.

Why in the world do people deny the possiblity that 'whatever' cannot combine ownership/love/marriage and permanance*?

Rare, yes: but we have 'specimans' <g> here to dissect.
I personally experience DswithSM and it works for me.
Physically + emotionally. (humble grace, TY)

Curious...... fawne

*Again- the term 'permanance' is nearly irrelevant, our reality-a dynamic universe.


Completely unsure why you quoted me or what you are trying to say with the quote or your response to it.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Fawne)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 4:22:38 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

So yes there is a type of ownership but it is Qualified (limited).





The flaw of Temporary Ownership comes down to the idea that you can give the person a way. You have the person for 365 days in the temporary ownership. So on the 364th day you give the slave to some one else.

Have you really exercise ownership of any kind? Has giving a slave away one day before the contract expires prove ownership? Anyone that I have meet in M/s relationship never have to prove ownership! If you have to prove it.. I have to wonder who you are trying to prove it too and why?



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 4:25:40 PM   
Fawne


Posts: 462
Status: offline 		HI, and thanks for asking!

thetammyjo: " If I wanted risk on an emotional or psychological level, I'd force myself to be vanilla"

I mean why do you think you'd need to be vanilla?

The rest is general for everyone. As in a philosophical question about life.

Take care!

< Message edited by Fawne -- 2/17/2006 4:28:34 PM >

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 4:29:25 PM   
seaturtle50


Posts: 382
Joined: 12/28/2005
Status: offline
quote:

but none of that changes the reality that I can't even keep a boyfriend for more than a few weeks.


Caitlyn, This is only representative of the reality that to date you have not. Not of the reality that you can not

st50

_____________________________

i want to be your ... #1 lowest common denominator.

Destiny happens in a moment ... in the blink of an eye.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Ownership is not ownership, unless it is forever... - 2/17/2006 4:35:28 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

Have you ever stopped and thought that maybe, just maybe, ownership isn't about love and romantic envolvement? That it about service over your sexual wants and desires? That it's about the person being of service to another and not having to love them or them loving you.


Care not to conquer the person and you own nothing in them. There must be a force that draws them into your influence. Otherwise, 'ownership' is an opulent falsity, perpetuated for gratification of both parties.

Ownership needn't be about love and romantic involvement, but it still needs to be backed up by something. Titles and castes were dissolved quite some time ago in the West, so unless you have secured the one in question with some method of mental or physical collateral, what keeps them as your slave—even if only for a matter of hours? The answer is nothing, really. It is all predicated upon the owned one's preference.




quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
No where in this quote:
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
And here is the real crux of the issue, no? I couldn't care less about owning the heart and mind, I want to own the slave. Your heart and mind ownership is very romantic, and works for a great many people, but it does not allow for my kind of ownership...why?


Did Taggard say this:
quote:

So basically you just want a girl to fuck and hand off?

Nor is it implied anywhere that I have seen.


There is something called reading between the lines, perhaps?

Regardless, there is nothing wrong with making use of a girl and being done with her—but this is not ownership. It is merely use. Renting, at best.


(in reply to MrDiscipline44)
Profile   Post #: 80
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