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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/13/2009 3:19:47 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Sorry.. my eyes are still rolling
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: LetsGetItRight

Women who stay home with their kids, meet their friends, know where they are at all hours of the day and night, and make sure they are eating properly, going to school, doing homework, etc.,

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/14/2009 9:37:48 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Why exactly do women need to be the sex that stays home with the kids?

Didn't she all ready do her part carrying it for 40 weeks (or so)? Why don't the father step up and take responsibility or are men just unnecessary to the well-being of children?


quote:

ORIGINAL: LetsGetItRight

Women who stay home with their kids, meet their friends, know where they are at all hours of the day and night, and make sure they are eating properly, going to school, doing homework, etc., aren't doing those things because they are weak individuals or their husband forced them to!  It's the women who feel they can churn out the kids and then focus on a career while neglecting their upbringing that annoy me.  Even those who leave their kids with babysitters or nannies... where is the parent's say in the morals and manners these kids will have? 

i understand that women did a great job of running the country while the men were away at war and women are quite capable of being a man's equal in the workplace, but a mother's role at home is very special and can't be replaced even by a stay at home dad.  i think today's kids have missed out on something special by being left alone so much.






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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/14/2009 9:45:51 PM   
LetsGetItRight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TechnoPagan

The forum the original article is posted on pays it authors if the bring in enough traffic, so there is a monetary incentive to say controversial and outrageous things and post links to draw in the suckers (the BS detector is ringing like crazy).

TechnoPagan



i had a look at the monetary amount involved here.  If there are 1,000 views, the writer will get ....<<drum roll>>... $1.50.

Edited to note that i wasn't the one who wrote the article and am not the recipient of these monetary rewards.


< Message edited by LetsGetItRight -- 7/14/2009 10:02:03 PM >

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/15/2009 1:09:52 PM   
PeonForHer


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Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

The author of that tripe lost me right about here:
quote:

The fact that males are superior to females cannot be disputed as we have direct evidence from genetic research and extensive studies of the human mind.





Two points.

Firstly, time and time again I've seen this mistake.  (The mistake of 'objectivism', I've heard it called.  It has many other names.)  It's not possible to 'evidence' a value (i.e. 'superiority'/'inferiority') with 'objective facts'.  There is no one, objective indicator of 'superiority'.  You might as well ask, which is the superior colour, yellow or orange?  It's a nonsense question and there can't be a serious answer. 

Ironically, I saw this superior/inferior argument done recently on the Mistress board by malesub who was trying to convince us all of the opposite - that females were superior.  He seemed utterly incapable of grasping that his 'objective facts' weren't relevant.  The more a few of us argued with him, the more he piled on such facts and demanded that we refute them.

Secondly,

Social studies are useless unless done holistically.  That is, with a realisation built into one's methodology that all the bits of a society are related to all the other bits.  The relations between the genders in the 1950s were intricately connected to all other facets of the way society worked in the 1950s - just as they are now.  So, if you're going to ask, "Do we want the gender relations that we had in the 1950s?", you're forced, at the same time, to ask "Do we want 1950s society again?" 

Of course we bloody don't.  The whole period was a social nightmare.  Let's get back to the joys of apartheid, race riots, the Berlin Wall and the Cold War.  Peachy!

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/15/2009 3:56:01 PM   
AngelicaGoddess


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Joined: 10/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LetsGetItRight

Firebirdseeking,

The question was simply food for thought.  Perhaps if mothers had more time to spend with their children, the kids who grew up on their own while their moms worked might have turned out differently.  Maybe there would be fewer kids on drugs, fewer kids who made bad choices in their lives, etc. 

This is a forum for highlighting articles in the news that have to do with alternative lifestyles.  As i explained in an earlier post, i'm new to this lifestyle and was curious what connection, if any, Feminism has to BDSM.  i'm here to learn and to get involved.  This was my first attempt at it.  Perhaps the questions i asked were offensive, and i will keep that in mind the next time i'm curious about something. Thank you for your understanding response. :)




Pray do tell, why can't FATHERS spend time with their children? Especially if the mother earns more, or are men incapable to look after kids?

Btw could it simply have to do with the fact that drugs are around more than they used to be? Because laborers in the middle ages didn't have the luxury of mothers being able to stay at home and there are no reports of them using drugs, they were too busy trying to earn enough to not starve. Now would our society be better if we go back to that? You know, less danger of kids taking drugs....

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/16/2009 6:35:06 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

Btw could it simply have to do with the fact that drugs are around more than they used to be? Because laborers in the middle ages didn't have the luxury of mothers being able to stay at home and there are no reports of them using drugs, they were too busy trying to earn enough to not starve. Now would our society be better if we go back to that? You know, less danger of kids taking drugs....


I do see your point, but your example do not work very well. In the middle ages the children was out working with the parents from the time they could properly walk, they had no time, nor the resources to do drugs even if drugs had been available, and a staggering amount of children never reach adulthood. The only case this was not so was the children of the very rich and nobility and what they did or did not do with their spare time we know little about.

I wish you well


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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/17/2009 7:40:07 AM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		Actually, I think she was being sarcastic, you know since the article offers such BS arguments as feminism is bad for society, she said exactly what you said, just to point out that such a line of reasoning is stupid...

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/17/2009 11:41:07 AM   
XYisInferior


Posts: 166
Joined: 2/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

The author of that tripe lost me right about here:
quote:

The fact that males are superior to females cannot be disputed as we have direct evidence from genetic research and extensive studies of the human mind.




It's not possible to 'evidence' a value (i.e. 'superiority'/'inferiority') with 'objective facts'.  There is no one, objective indicator of 'superiority'.  You might as well ask, which is the superior colour, yellow or orange?  It's a nonsense question and there can't be a serious answer. 

Ironically, I saw this superior/inferior argument done recently on the Mistress board by malesub who was trying to convince us all of the opposite - that females were superior.  He seemed utterly incapable of grasping that his 'objective facts' weren't relevant.  The more a few of us argued with him, the more he piled on such facts and demanded that we refute them.


That would have been me, I believe, but I remember the thread a little differently. I recall supporting my side of the debate in part with findings by peer reviewed journals and authors in the field after it was requested I do so, and I obliged. I then requested reciprocation of the favor to discount the facts presented, which were in aggregate nothing like the spin you're referring to in the above article in this thread, or like comparing "yellow to orange".

Superiority is measured in context by a set of cohesive facts that appeal to values important to the observer. Well of course. I believe I covered that in the very thread you're speaking of here: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2480207 (to sum up, I can accept you found those objective facts "irrelevant", but I do not).

I also recall touching upon and encouraging a "holistic approach" with sociological and empirical viewpoints as well. Just wanted to throw that out there for the record. It's convenient for us to remember our opponents in past debate negatively in order to support our own points of view (even if they are formed with all the best intentions in the world), but it sometimes has little to do with objectivity, in turn.

< Message edited by XYisInferior -- 7/17/2009 11:57:01 AM >

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/17/2009 4:32:17 PM   
Firebirdseeking


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Status: offline 		I recall a conversation I had with a "dominant" from this site who was writing a book allegedly blaming most of society's ills on feminism.  Apparently the rising of the status of women has also castrated men - according to this genius.  I really dont understand this thinking.  That is like saying that civil rights lowered the status of caucasians.

I find this thinking offensive.  I go back to this in my mind:  a truly secure male is not threatened by feminism.  He knows who he is.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/18/2009 5:34:44 PM   
Loki45


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Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
Apparently the rising of the status of women has also castrated men - according to this genius.  I really dont understand this thinking.  That is like saying that civil rights lowered the status of caucasians.


Being often 'of two minds' about everything, first I will disagree with this sentiment on the grounds that it really isn't similar at all. However, on the other hand....

I will agree that civil rights has seemed to have that effect on caucasians. Think about it. White people have to be VERY careful what they say, or they're branded a racist for life. Yet other people say far worse things....and it's 'ok.' Look at affirmative action -- intended to create an even playing field....supposedly. However in reality what it does in many cases is assure that a white candidate doesn't get a job despite being better qualified because the company can't afford to be 'rumored' a racist or discriminatory company because the other candidate didn't get hired.

Back on the subject of castration, if you think about it, it really has happened. I refer to it as the 'pussification of the American male.' Women in society today really seem to have all the power. You can witness this anytime a particularly vindictive woman 'decides' to accuse a man of rape, whether they've had intercourse or not. Case in point: Duke University. The charges were total bullshit, but those men forever have that stigma associated with them. Another case in point: how many domestice violence calls end up with the man in jail? And how many end up with the woman going away in handcuffs?

Look at the work place. Back in 'the old days' men in garages had calendars up on the wall with scantily clad women. No one cared. It wasn't an area where customers could see, so it was fine. Women enter that same work place and suddenly that's "wrong." Suddenly it has to be changed to allow women to work their without feeling 'harassed.'  Yet I can tell you I've worked in at least a couple of places where a woman had 'wash board abs' blatantly visible in a calendar on her desk and no one says a damned thing.

It appears this happens with any 'movement' designed for equality. Those who claim they are seeking equality really don't know when to stop. Deep down I think some want superiority...not equality. But that's just my opinion.


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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/18/2009 5:41:27 PM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Obviously I am a bad mother. Although I am a stay at home, my oldest still won't touch a vegetable. Not even potatoes and all kids eat fries (except her). I'm sure her college grades in one of the nation's top private universities don't make up for me not teaching her to eat right.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/18/2009 9:45:22 PM   
Firebirdseeking


Posts: 477
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		This sounds like revisionist thinking to me.

1.  women were historically routinely blamed for being beaten: "What did you do to provoke him?" was a common question when the police arrived.  I know, I worked at a shelter in the late 70's.
2.  Rape victims were routinely blamed for being raped; mode of dress, sexual history were all fair game in a court of law.  I am NOT advocating false accusations; a lie is a lie, a liar is a liar, but there are many more women raped and battered than there are men falsely accused of rape.  Its the false accusations that get the media attention, not the one in 4 female who is sexually abused before the age of 12, and not the women who are beaten every 18 seconds.
3.  Oh, please.  Women do NOT have all the power in society.  Women HAD to enter the work force in the 70's because it was no longer possible to live on one income.  If women appear to have all the power, it is because men often do not step up to the plate.  I wish I had a dollar for every woman who works her 8 hours, just like her man, and when they come home, he does his thing while she still has the second shift at home, cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids.  Open your eyes.  In most places in the world, women still do not have the same rights and privileges as men.  Pointing to the handful of cases where a man was falsely accused of rape, while I do not condone that AT ALL, really minimizes the realities  of most women's lives, which is that the threat of violence controls us to a degree that men will never experience, and it also trivializes the real domestic and sexual violence that is frighteningly common in many women's experiences.

"The rising of the women means the rising of the race". - the song Bread and Roses

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/18/2009 10:01:30 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
I wish I had a dollar for every woman who works her 8 hours, just like her man, and when they come home, he does his thing while she still has the second shift at home, cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids. 


And I wish I had a dollar for every woman I heard bitching about this while I see continued evidence to the contrary. Nearly every man in my family shares, if not does more than his share of the household chores. And growing up, my father, though he probably doesn't deserve that title, actually cooked more often than not and he was born in the 40's. Your pointing to 'women doing the second shift at home' is as ludicrous as your claim of my pointing out the 'few' cases of false accusations.

By the way, just because a false accusation doesn't make the news every night doesn't mean it's less common than the real crime. It's just less talked about because in our society, despite the laws proclaiming people innocent until proven guilty, the big, bad abusers are often guilty until they prove themselves innocent. Often longer than that since, in the media, they're guilty the moment the accusation is made. The trouble with that, is there is never repercussions for the false accuser....not even so much as a perjury charge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
In most places in the world, women still do not have the same rights and privileges as men. 


We aren't talking about the world, we're talking about the rest of the world, unless I'm mistaken. "Soooooo" many people want the big, bad U.S. to stay out of their affairs, so therefore we can't point to their cultures and societies to make our point about women's lack of rights. Can't have it both ways.


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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/18/2009 10:21:18 PM   
Firebirdseeking


Posts: 477
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		Excuse me, but in the 80's a woman named Arlie Hochschild wrote a book called Second Shift.  I suggest you read it.  This is not a ludicrous claim.  I do not see the second shift she wrote about being any less common in the generation behind me.  Just because the men in your family did their share doesnt mean it is not a problem for most women.  

Men typically do the "outside work", chores that need to be done once every few weeks and can be done any time over the course of a weekend.  Women typically do the inside work, the cooking, cleaning, child related chores, which need to be done regularly, daily, and on a schedule.  Guess which gender might have more stress?  Guess which gender suffers more from depression and anxiety?  

What I said was t hat violence, domestic and sexual, are realities in the lives of the majority of women.  I do not think that being falsely accused of rape occurs once every 18 seconds, which is the national frequency of domestic violence, in which women are overwhelmingly the victim.  I do not think false rape accusations are as common as the one in 4 girls that are sexually abused before the age of 12.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/18/2009 10:31:08 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
Excuse me, but in the 80's a woman named Arlie Hochschild wrote a book called Second Shift.  I suggest you read it.  This is not a ludicrous claim.  I do not see the second shift she wrote about being any less common in the generation behind me.  Just because the men in your family did their share doesnt mean it is not a problem for most women. 


And just because it was 'in a book' doesn't mean that's always how it is. You can generalize, so can I, it seems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
Men typically do the "outside work", chores that need to be done once every few weeks and can be done any time over the course of a weekend.  Women typically do the inside work, the cooking, cleaning, child related chores, which need to be done regularly, daily, and on a schedule.  Guess which gender might have more stress?  Guess which gender suffers more from depression and anxiety? 


Again "typically" is a generalizing word. For every example of a live-in situation you show me where the woman does the chores, I can show you one where that is not the case. Hell I don't think I have even met a girl who hasn't said she expects 'sharing' of the chores from 'her man.' It's one of the reasons I'm still single. Well that and I have no need for a relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
What I said was t hat violence, domestic and sexual, are realities in the lives of the majority of women.  I do not think that being falsely accused of rape occurs once every 18 seconds, which is the national frequency of domestic violence, in which women are overwhelmingly the victim.  I do not think false rape accusations are as common as the one in 4 girls that are sexually abused before the age of 12.


I don't think you can accurately speak on how often false accusations do or don't happen as I have yet to see statistics for them. They are swept under the rug. Glossed over. Because to handle them any other way would do a disservice to those women who actually *are* attacked. Every false accuser out there doesn't just ruin the life of an innocent man, she also makes it that much harder for a REAL victim to be believed and treated the correct way.


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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/19/2009 5:31:04 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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Status: offline 		That would have been me, I believe, but I remember the thread a little differently. I recall supporting my side of the debate in part with findings by peer reviewed journals and authors in the field after it was requested I do so, and I obliged. I then requested reciprocation of the favor to discount the facts presented, which were in aggregate nothing like the spin you're referring to in the above article in this thread, or like comparing "yellow to orange".

XY,

At risk of blowing that argument up all over again, I'll say - for the last time - that your demand for 'reciprocation of facts' that contradicted your own wasn't relevant.  Or, rather, it was only relevant to you.  I tried making the point to you repeatedly, as did others, but you wanted to confine the debate to one of facts versus falsehoods - and deemed anything outside of that framework to be irrelevant.  In short, we weren't talking to one-another. 

It simply doesn't work that way.  It isn't logically possible to support an argument that one sex is superior to another by means of 'objective facts', because 'superiority' is a value-laden term.  IMO, what's needed in such debates is not more science, but more critique of science.  In particular, a critique of objectivism amongst scientists. 

It really does boil down to this: saying that one sex is superior to the other is, logically (or, rather, illogically) speaking, like saying that the colour orange is superior to the colour yellow.  The argument cannot go anywhere.  The philosophical foundations for it aren't tenable.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/20/2009 12:00:25 PM   
XYisInferior


Posts: 166
Joined: 2/17/2009
Status: offline 		"At risk of blowing that argument up all over again, I'll say - for the last time - that your demand for 'reciprocation of facts' that contradicted your own wasn't relevant. Or, rather, it was only relevant to you."

With all respect, I think your argument would be better served by not claiming what is "relevant" or not for anyone but yourself. That aside, Barbara Migeon's work, among the findings of others, withstands plenty of objective critique. I would invite you to actually read it. For your own argument's sake, I think "critiquing science" (or at least, the scientific facts I present to in part support my beliefs) isn't really where you'll want to go on this subject (something tells me we've been there already). A discussion of why and how one draws the conclusion of superiority vs. inferiority is in fact a worthy subject of conversation in my opinion, and indeed, that covers far more ground than haggling about genetic facts. Be that as it may, I think taking a detailed look at structural design and ability between two archetypes is an excellent place to begin.


"The argument cannot go anywhere. The philosophical foundations for it aren't tenable."

But that is of course your valuation of the entire subject, in turn, if we're going to get into philosophy. There are plenty of philosophical pathways leading to belief in Female Supremacy; supplementing that philosophy with genetic fact is merely one dimension, though it's a pretty tenable one in my view. Of course, you don't have to buy the philosophy of Female Supremacy any more than you have to buy belief in "God". I don't think anyone disputes that. If you want to dispute the facts that support my belief in Female Supremacy, however, I will expect an intellectually honest debate on that ground.


"I tried making the point to you repeatedly, as did others, but you wanted to confine the debate to one of facts versus falsehoods."

Once again, I wasn't "confining" anything at all. Was I presenting support for an argument and providing data as it was requested? Yes.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/20/2009 4:27:50 PM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline 		hahahahahahahahaha  My opinion?  Let me put it this way.........That is one HUGE truckload of horse shit. 

I'm a sub and I'm not nodding my head, I'm shaking my head.......at the stupidity.  Doesn't the writer of that article understand that feminism is about choices?  Feminism isn't telling us to, or making us, live one way or the other.  It's about choices!  I choose to be sub, Dommes choose to be Dominant.  And other people can choose to like it or not, but choice is the important word here.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/20/2009 9:04:43 PM   
Firebirdseeking


Posts: 477
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		No need for a relationship, huh?  I guess that speaks louder than anything else you said.

You can be a revisionist if you wish and ignore the historic inequities and injustices perpetrated by patriachal culture but that would make you very foolish and very, very wrong. 

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/21/2009 12:39:58 AM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
No need for a relationship, huh?  I guess that speaks louder than anything else you said.


And why, praytell, does it "speak louder than anything else I said?" Are you attempting to imply that my knowing what's best for me is somehow akin to a point you were trying to make?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
You can be a revisionist if you wish and ignore the historic inequities and injustices perpetrated by patriachal culture but that would make you very foolish and very, very wrong. 


And you can dwell in the past all you like, but that doesn't mean things are still the way they were back then.


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Profile   Post #: 60
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