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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/21/2009 12:40:02 AM

SeekingQuixotic

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So you think women having the ability to choose the aspects of her sexual freedom and general choices in life is harmful?

And what is in your opinion these so-called "gender roles"? Is it the XY chromosome of thinking that men are naturally dominant and women are naturally submissive?

Honey, wake up and smell the individualism.

(in reply to LetsGetItRight)

RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/21/2009 4:30:37 AM

Firebirdseeking

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Excuse me, but the numbers I was quoting you are from the PRESENT, not from the past. The numbers of women who are still living in fear of abuse is still a major global issue for women. If you think that inequities perpetuated against women are part of the past, I suggest you read Jimmy Carter's reasons for withdrawing from the Southern Baptist Church.

As for having no need of a relationship, that is your business but then perhaps you are not the best authority on them, hmm?

(in reply to Loki45)

RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/21/2009 8:04:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
Excuse me, but the numbers I was quoting you are from the PRESENT, not from the past. The numbers of women who are still living in fear of abuse is still a major global issue for women. If you think that inequities perpetuated against women are part of the past, I suggest you read Jimmy Carter's reasons for withdrawing from the Southern Baptist Church.

As for having no need of a relationship, that is your business but then perhaps you are not the best authority on them, hmm?

"Excuse me" but I took the OP to be about American society, not the the global one, especially since the article referenced mentions "1950's style relationships."

I'm not interested in, nor do I care about how third world countries treat their women. Every time the U.S. tries to 'help' a country like that, we're called bullies. So for the sake of this debate, let's try and focus on ONE society, shall we? Especially since one of the earliest of my comments you replied to specificially mentioned my view on the "pussification of the AMERICAN male." You can try and use other societies to argue your point, but you will get nowhere as I have been very clear about which society I am referring to.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/21/2009 6:22:44 PM

Firebirdseeking

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And I was also very clear in referring to US society in the stats I quoted you, and in referencing Jimmy Carter's comments as to how HIS church, the US SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH treats women. I dont really care if you think my comments about women in other nations are not relevant; that is a very narrow POV. Feminism is a global movement, and I DO care about the positions of PEOPLE in areas other than my back yard. But guess what, Ill bet if you look in your back yard, you will find a pussified male.

I think I am done with this thread. You are a man who HAS to be right, so you cannot learn.

(in reply to Loki45)

RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/21/2009 6:38:39 PM

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I am so glad there is a discussion about this. I think about it all the time.

Personally I think it sucks that women still can get raped just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, wearing slutty clothes.

I am also disappointed that it is very difficult for a woman to stay home and focus on raising her kids and philanthropy, without someone saying "must be nice, for YOU."

It also seems that women who choose to work and have kids, should be able to work part time so they can be home for their kids. I think a parent should be home to raise the children, keep them out of trouble, feed them good food, give them outlets for entertainment that aren't exclusively video games, encourage good eating habits, make sure they have clean clothes that fit, help them deal with bullies, etc. It is a job.

Let me add that I do have friends who are adamant that women do everything and men do nothing, which I don't believe either. I had a very involved Dad, when he was allowed to be.

< Message edited by Lostkitten3 -- 7/21/2009 7:17:26 PM >

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/21/2009 6:40:24 PM

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Used to be that he could make more money. Women are still paid .70 cents to every dollar a man is paid. And the law says she can't discuss pay at work, so often she doesn't know until she has cashed so many checks that the courts find she has already agreed to that pay.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/21/2009 7:00:36 PM

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I thought that women had to work in the 70's because divorce got so popular? I thought it was because women got tired of their men trading them in for a younger model? Particularly the secretaries? And being left behind with two kids she had to make money to feed clothe and shelter them while he went off to have a party?

Certainly not all the cases, in the 80's some women left their men because they were bored. Staying home with kids is boring. Often. And draining. But those of us that see value in it (vegetables aside) o it because we want to put strong intelligent people into the world to help make good decision in the future. Make things better.

I think Feminism had good intentions. And I think right now a lot of women are too using their newfound equality to punish men. I had heard the statistic as 1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted by the time they are 12. That's a lot of very angry women out there!

So men need to learn to keep their hands to themselves, and tech the boys to as well, and women need to appreciate men for their gifts, and teach their daughters to.

(in reply to Firebirdseeking)

RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/21/2009 7:32:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
I dont really care if you think my comments about women in other nations are not relevant; that is a very narrow POV. Feminism is a global movement, and I DO care about the positions of PEOPLE in areas other than my back yard.

So you combat my views on American society by talking about other nations? How does that work?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking
But guess what, Ill bet if you look in your back yard, you will find a pussified male.

Cute. Wrong, but cute. And thank you for meeting my expectations that you would resort to a personal attack. As they say, when you make personal attacks, you've already lost the debate.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to Firebirdseeking)

RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/21/2009 7:33:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lostkitten3
I am so glad there is a discussion about this. I think about it all the time.

Personally I think it sucks that women still can get raped just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, wearing slutty clothes.

I am also disappointed that it is very difficult for a woman to stay home and focus on raising her kids and philanthropy, without someone saying "must be nice, for YOU."

It also seems that women who choose to work and have kids, should be able to work part time so they can be home for their kids. I think a parent should be home to raise the children, keep them out of trouble, feed them good food, give them outlets for entertainment that aren't exclusively video games, encourage good eating habits, make sure they have clean clothes that fit, help them deal with bullies, etc. It is a job.

Let me add that I do have friends who are adamant that women do everything and men do nothing, which I don't believe either. I had a very involved Dad, when he was allowed to be.

Very well said.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to Lostkitten3)

RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/22/2009 10:12:52 AM

LillyoftheVally

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The problem with feminism is men, the only way that feminism can really achieve its goal is by throwing away gender. Its a social construct anyways. People should have the ability to do what they are good at/want to regardless of reproductive organs. What has happened is that women wanting to take what we still consider a 'male' role has caused a question of masculinity. Problem is that 'male' characteristics are seen as good, the things we want to have where female ones are seen as weak, this means women often aspire to 'masculinity' while men who may have more feminine traits are viewed with disdain.

Without the notion of gender then this would allow more freedom of expression, so often feminism has become a term to mean that women have to want a job and all that malarchy when the actual point is that women should have the right to choose just as men should also.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/22/2009 10:56:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
The problem with feminism is men, the only way that feminism can really achieve its goal is by throwing away gender.

Now I've heard everything. First, men are the bad guys, according to the feminists. And then, the problem with those feminists are men. That's just ridiculous.

The problem with feminism, as its been said here before is that people take an originally decent concept and pervert it. Suddenly women look down on other women who actually *want* to stay at home and raise their young ones.

No, the problem with feminism isn't men. It's the same thing that is a problem for any other movement of a similar type. Those the movement seeks to help end up taking it too far in the other direction.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/22/2009 11:12:42 AM

LillyoftheVally

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Did you actually read my post? My point was that feminism has displaced the 'male' role.

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'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/22/2009 11:29:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Did you actually read my post? My point was that feminism has displaced the 'male' role.

Yeah I read it. Though honestly, since it started out with " The problem with feminism is men," any other point you tried to make was lost.

Perhaps if you'd worded it more like "The problem with feminism is the displacement of the 'male' role," you might have been better able to make your point, instead of illiciting a confrontational response.

Because saying what you said gives the impression that once again, men are the bad guys. When one of the biggest problems stay-at-home moms face is judgement from other, working women.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/22/2009 11:34:27 AM

LillyoftheVally

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Ahh well I shall remember that in future, see I was attempting to use it as a device to draw the reader in, but then I didnt expect a person to disregard the entire content of the post in favour of suggesting that I am being ridiculous. Even what you quoted made my point. You see it was a play on the feminine and masculine. Never mind I cant expect everyone to maintain a calm position.

Personally I would have been stomping my feet about the 'slutty' dressed comment earlier, thus reinforcing the nature of how you dress implying sexual promiscuity. But there we go.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/22/2009 4:06:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: XYisInferior

. If you want to dispute the facts that support my belief in Female Supremacy, however, I will expect an intellectually honest debate on that ground.

"I tried making the point to you repeatedly, as did others, but you wanted to confine the debate to one of facts versus falsehoods."

Once again, I wasn't "confining" anything at all. Was I presenting support for an argument and providing data as it was requested? Yes.

On the one hand, you say that you weren't, 'confining' anything at all - and don't want to do so now. Immediately prior to that you said "If you want to dispute the facts that support my belief in Female Supremacy, however, I will expect an intellectually honest debate on that ground." You're still making the same mistake. This is an example of one kind of objectivism - the belief that arguments about values can be solved by means of finding conclusive, 'objective knowledge'.

To me, it is intellectually dishonest to maintain that anyone's belief in female supremacy - or indeed male supremacy - is about 'facts'. It is not about 'facts'. It is not about anything objective at all.

Let me use this example: "Which is the superior colour, orange or yellow?" Now, that question may well seem intuitively laughable - but it's no different, in essence, to the question of "Which is the superior sex?" We may say that yellow is superior for x or y reason (visibility against the background of the sea, say) - but we cannot ever say that yellow is overall superior to orange or vice versa. It can't be done. In the same way - to use an example I gave from the old argument - we can never say that the orang utan is a superior animal to the gorilla. It cannot make any sense, no matter how many 'objective facts' we bring to bear on the question. It won't, ever, matter what we know about the abilities of either orang utans or gorillas.

In short, the question is about values, not facts. Once you accept that - as I believe you must - though, you're on a slippery slope. You cannot but end up saying that there's just no way to conclude that one sex is superior to the other.

Beneath that is a more fundamental question, for me - which is, why did people think this question was resolvable by means of objective facts in the first place? Why didn't they see, straight away - and as they would with the question of 'superiority of orange over yellow or gorillas over orang utans (or vice versa) - that it was silly to couch that the question that way? The answer to that more basic question, I'd say, is exactly why we need more critique of science, amongst other things.

XYs - I shall be leaving this argument now. It's clear we're going round in circles. The last word is yours if you want it.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 7/22/2009 4:07:58 PM >

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/22/2009 7:17:57 PM

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Gee, you'd think by 2009 that the education system was sufficiently good enough to teach people the difference between stating an opinion and discussing an actual idea; an understanding of which, the author of this article seems to lack.

All I see in this article is someone (rather poorly) stating their personal preferences and passing it off as a truism as to how to fix all societies ills; as well as some poorly applied pseudo science. The article comes off as purposely emotive, and sometimes inflammatory, for what reason, I can only speculate. But, needless to say my reaction to the article is 'meh'; followed by 'blah blah blah'. So, nope, no feathers ruffled here.

As for the rest of the discussion here, some people lose sight of the core of feminism and that is equality of choice – whatever that choice may be. That in turn, means equality of choice for both genders. Until women had some semblance of equality of choice, men didn't truly have it either; sure they had the opportunities that some women were fighting hard for, but they didn't have equal choice.

Imo, It's fine to have a personal preference for traditional gender roles, or enjoy less traditional ones (or none at all) equality of choice allows us this. But to challenge the diversity that equality allows suggests fear, arrogance and a desperate need for validation.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/22/2009 8:57:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
On the one hand, you say that you weren't, 'confining' anything at all - and don't want to do so now. Immediately prior to that you said "If you want to dispute the facts that support my belief in Female Supremacy, however, I will expect an intellectually honest debate on that ground." You're still making the same mistake. This is an example of one kind of objectivism - the belief that arguments about values can be solved by means of finding conclusive, 'objective knowledge'.

Objective facts will not ever live in a vacuum from human regard, valuation or reasoning. We use them to shape our knowledge, our beliefs, theories, and correlate our understanding of reality. Human thought processes are made up of valuations based on good or bad information, of conclusions reached upon the basis of evidence and reasoning. We can challenge each other by testing our understanding of objective facts and how we organize them into our reasoning.

What I think you are ultimately saying is that the facts presented have little value to you where this subject is concerned in the first place, and I can live with that.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/23/2009 10:04:22 AM

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I agree with you, LilyoftheVally. But I'm a radical feminism so I think that gender roles being misunderstood as biological sex is a huge problem in the world today. I also think, as a radical feminist, that education is the only solid way to change things. I'm not talking about in-school education necessarily but all the education we get as human beings that tries to tell us "you are X therefore you must be G" or "you are Q or you must be M" because sometimes an X makes a much better M or a Q functions much healthier as a R.

Place whatever social roles or identities you want in those letters. It isn't just about sex and gender though that seems to be where it begins followed by age expectations and then race/ethnic expectations that may not reflect the individual, their abilities, talents, or needs.

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/23/2009 10:20:28 AM

LillyoftheVally

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I completely agree with you Tammy

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'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

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RE: Feminism bad for society? - 7/24/2009 5:37:05 AM

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I've not read thru all the replies but my response to that article was 'what a load of crap.'

Chromosomes do not imbue any male with responsibility, ethics, honor or even a notable bit of intelligence. Entrusting someone with my life, welfare and economic wellbeing just because he's male?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

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