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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 9:39:49 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

My hats off to you...

Not to diminish what everyone else has said, but my hat is off to you for that post.

K.

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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 9:55:51 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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Orion,

Can I bring up a question that is on my mind about this? Seeing the actions that you took, I am, as mentioned, impressed with the correctness of each action you took. Was this just a case of your reacting perfectly to the situation or did you receive some instruction in what to do if ever faced with such a situation?


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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 10:00:06 AM   
rockspider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

"A dreadful and disproportionate use of force against a person who had not made so much as a threat of attack and who, being held at gunpoint, could not be held to have been in a position to put you in fear of life or limb. That you shot this unfortunate young man three times speaks not of self defence but of overt attack, noting the absence of threat to you, and for this reason, alongside the firearm offences in general, I have no hesitation in recommending the maximum sentence permissible of life imprisonment, with a further recommendation that you serve a minimum of 20 years. I further order that your assets be frozen, pending the award of compensation, to be paid from their realisation, to the young man whom you attacked for the dreadful injuries occasioned to him."

Alternatively, the little shit gambled you were bluffing and lost. I applaud your actions, and though the outcome is regrettable its absolutely clear it occurred only because of the failure to comply with instructions on the part of the little shit. The above is what one might expect to hear in a UK Court, shortly before you were taken down - that the US system has evolved to recognise (what I feel is) a better standard of process in such instances merely indicates the failure of the UK system, whereby you'd by now be in deep do-do, whether you'd shot, stabbed, clubbed or done whatever else to him.

I hope you and yours recover from it all soon; the psychological impact must be great, whether its realised now or in the future. Dont be afraid to admit it and work through it with whoever can help.

E

Sadly enough in my country the above would apply too Lady Ellen.
Let me say that I am 100 % in favor of the OP as he obviously handled in accordance with the law and the fact the perb was armed totally justifies his actions. So well done and one up for the pro gun lobby.
However I have tried to be in a similar situation and it gave another view on guns in private hands.
I was in my workshop on my property in Johannesburg, South Africa about 20 years ago. My domestic maid comes in and tells me she has seen that someone is breaking in to the house on the opposite side of the road. I unholstered my gun. A Colt 45 ACP Combat Commander and went next door to neighbor who was a traffic cop, but also ran a small car repair operation from his garage. He was there, so was his mate and helper, both armed. The wife was told to ring 911 and we went across the road and surrounded the house. One of us yelled out that they should remain calm as they were under gunpoint and the police was called. Suddenly a tiny bathroom window springs up and a person jumps out and run for the wall to the next door property. It was my field of fire so I yelled at him “Stop or I shoot”. Well he jumped the wall. I went after him but only managed to hang on arms on the 6 foot concrete wall with the gun pointing at him. Yelled again but he kept going. Let go of 4 – 5 shoots but missed and he jumped over the wall on the other side of the property. Gone and out of sight. As I let myself down I saw a police car had pulled up. They got out and the cop was more interested in about how many still in the house than the one getting away. First action was to just to close the gap between the tree of us and yelled that the police was on the scene, for the benefit of the ones in the house. Under a minute later 2 more cop cars pulled up. With all the going on the maid who obviously had gone AWOL for a natter with some friends came running. She had the keys for the house and the cops entered it and arrested four boys. They were handcuffed and loaded in a police van which drove off. The cops asked me if I would take a ride with them, looking for the runner. I did and we talked a little where he said I had acted completely within the law. Suddenly the radio said something in Afrikaans and they turned around as the other cops had found him covering in a ditch about 500 m away. When we got back they had made a report which they asked me to read, but funny enough not sign. Anyway that was probably shorter than my post here and factual. By now the owner had returned and I asked if I was needed, which I wasn’t and I went home and had some coffee and I think a shot off scotch.
The only thing I heard about it later, was on the grapevine. Those thieves was 16 – 19 year old unarmed kids who broke in of no other reason than pure poverty. Of course it should punished, but not with the death sentence as I was trying to mete out. Another thing was that those bullets I send down through my neighbors gardens could just as easily have hit somebody just happening to be in the way. Afterwards I felt utterly ashamed of my actions and promised myself never to fire a gun at a fleeing suspect. Stop or I shoot and a warning shot in to the lawn. If he still kept running, fuck it, leave it to cops.
Another story I read in the news down there countless times was: Gun owner hears something puzzle in his house at some ungodly hour. Grabs gun and go to investigate. In the dark he sees some shadowy figure moving towards him and fires at it. Gets the light on and finds his 18 year old son, who tried to sneak in, dead in front of him. Also every weeks brought a new story of someone who in play and stupidity killed or maimed someone. Or the countless guys, when they became unemployed or bankrupt, shot kids, wife and them self.
I am because of the above on the ban guns lobby’s side. Double the money for the cops. So they can get rid of the criminals. And if that don’t work treble them. Sleeping safe in your bed is a human right, but you are not safe, when your neighbor is shooting at shadows out of his window. It is a far cry from reality that all gun owners act as calm and collected as the OP. If they did, I switch side.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 10:20:46 AM   
KneelforAnne


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Thank you for posting this. 

It makes me wonder if I have it in me to pull the trigger.  I've often gone through it in my head--what to do if somone breaks in-- but I've never visualized it to the point of actually having to shoot. 

If the kid was involved with a gang, you/your family may want to keep an eye out. 

I second/third/fourth the whole talk to a lawyer thing. 

Thank you for making the world a little safer. 


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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 10:45:27 AM   
LadyPact


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Orion, all I can say is that I am very glad that you and yours are safe.

I honestly wish you wouldn't second guess yourself, but since I know that you will, even though what you did was the right thing, I won't waste your time with that route.  All I will suggest to you is that, when that happens, you come back and read the thread over.  It may help you in times to come.

All of My best wishes to you.  I'm very sorry that you had to go through this experience.  Thank you for being willing to share it.


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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 10:59:23 AM   
Anarrus


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Orion,

You did the right thing and as a few others have said, you did it by the book. The intruder had choices to make and huge choice that you offered him, he made the wrong ones. May you and your family find peace and be well.



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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 11:04:15 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I am going to put this here as it will wind up political. Please excuse my writing this morning, as I have been up since 3:45 am.

....

So to all the gun ban proponents out there, fuck you. I am going to eat, try and relax, and get some sleep. Argue as most of you are likely to do, but I feel better knowing my family was kept safe. I am sure there will be second guessing on things to do, I have been sitting here myself and doing that, but regardless the outcome is better than what it could have been,


And that, friends is how it's done. Orion went above and BEYOND what neeed to be done and the idiot STILL made a threatening motion towards him.

Good job, dude. Nice aim as well.

Edited to add: If you have any trouble winding down or sleeping at night, first remember that you warned him more than sufficiently and he made his choice. Secondly, a simple google search of news archives will show you what 'could' have happened had he gotten the upper hand.

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 12/6/2009 11:29:58 AM >


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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 11:08:03 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The above is what one might expect to hear in a UK Court, shortly before you were taken down - that the US system has evolved to recognise (what I feel is) a better standard of process in such instances merely indicates the failure of the UK system, whereby you'd by now be in deep do-do, whether you'd shot, stabbed, clubbed or done whatever else to him.



For heavens sake E, do some research. No one has or will get 20 years in the UK for killing a burglar, providing they have used reasonable force. Even Tony Martin didnt serve much time, and he shot a burglar who was leaving the premises and not posing a threat.

Orion, I have always been against gun ownership in the UK. I realise it is different in the US due to some people living miles from nowhere. I am just glad you and yours are all okay. Sleep easy, you did the right thing.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 11:17:00 AM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockspider
Another story I read in the news down there countless times was: Gun owner hears something puzzle in his house at some ungodly hour. Grabs gun and go to investigate. In the dark he sees some shadowy figure moving towards him and fires at it. Gets the light on and finds his 18 year old son, who tried to sneak in, dead in front of him. Also every weeks brought a new story of someone who in play and stupidity killed or maimed someone. Or the countless guys, when they became unemployed or bankrupt, shot kids, wife and them self.


We get the "countless" argument here, too. The facts are that these incidents can indeed be counted and they represent a fractionally small amount when factored per capita or even per gun owner or number of guns owned. Sad stories nonetheless but they aren't anywhere near the carnage that the gun control advocates would make them out to be.




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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 11:29:37 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Well after tossing and turning for a while, I said screw it and got back up.

I have had some training due to a past profession. Checking corners, blind areas, watching for body movement, and various other things is from training and some experience. Most of this training is available to anybody though, and many communities have their police or Sheriffs Dept offer it for free.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Orion,

Can I bring up a question that is on my mind about this? Seeing the actions that you took, I am, as mentioned, impressed with the correctness of each action you took. Was this just a case of your reacting perfectly to the situation or did you receive some instruction in what to do if ever faced with such a situation?




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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 11:40:49 AM   
LadyEllen


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Really PS? possession of an illegal firearm, minimum sentence? On top of using it? On top of attempted murder? The Courts here would take a very dim view of these circumstances.

E

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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 12:12:47 PM   
alittleevil


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Master Orion,

Most of us are blessed to never be forced into the very primal situation of defending our home--our haven--and our loved ones.  You, your girl, your little one and your parents are safe. My best to you and yours. Please be well.

Peace,
aj


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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 12:30:35 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Really PS? possession of an illegal firearm, minimum sentence? On top of using it? On top of attempted murder? The Courts here would take a very dim view of these circumstances.


You kinda give away your position with this bit here. In Orion's case, he's legally able to possess a firearm and its use in this case was easily justified.

If he were not legally able to own a firearm, the outcome would be similar to the situation you described. As is stands, the two situations really don't compare, regardless of where you live.


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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 12:33:49 PM   
LadyEllen


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My example of sentencing was based on English jurisdiction Loki. It is illegal to possess a handgun here, minimum sentence 5 years. It was illustration of the ludicrous situation we have compared to the US. Luckily, criminals here respect the provisions as they relate to handguns of course....

E

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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 12:39:51 PM   
tsatske


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Politesub,
I encourage people to think twice before owning a gun, because gun ownership is a responsibility that should not be taken lightly. Every gun owner I personally know is incredibly responsible, but, one is always reading about the other kind.
However, making gun ownership illeagal is another thing entirely. No facist goverment has everexisted on Earth, since the advent of armory, but that their first action was to collect all the guns. In the U.S., we have a history of pulling out our guns and, as a citizenry, seperating ourselves from your goverment. I relize that the citizenry can no longer win against the goverment, who owns much bigger, badder weapons, in todays world, than simple guns. However, as long as there are gun owners with the 'you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands' attitude, the U.S. will remain, a very difficult nation to subjegate.

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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 12:58:24 PM   
Brain


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I don't have a problem with what you did but I still don't want or like people having guns. I'm not interested in learning how to use a gun because I have other things to do. I don't like risking my life because somebody wants to steal things from my garage.

If you don't have a gun the criminal doesn't either. Additionally, the police could have handled what you did. You said yourself they were there in three minutes. I think if somebody tries to steal something from my garage, I will let them because it will be a lot less stressful to let a police officer handle the situation. Besides, that's what we pay them for. And I don't care if you want me to go fuck myself because I'm not interested in using a gun and I'm not interested in risking my life for materialistic things. I'm glad to know everyone is okay.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 1:08:30 PM   
dreamerdreaming


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Wow Orion, I'm sooo glad you were well armed, and knew just what to do to keep your family safe! The perp was armed, and might be a murderer for all we know. I'm certain he would have fired on you, if you hadn't shot first. 

This is exactly why I'm armed and dangerous, and make no apologies about it.

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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 1:08:57 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
If you don't have a gun the criminal doesn't either.


How in the world are you going to accomplish that?


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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 1:12:48 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
If you don't have a gun the criminal doesn't either.


How in the world did you make this logical leap?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
Additionally, the police could have handled what you did. You said yourself they were there in three minutes.



Three minutes after they were called. And that's three minutes of the guy being unable to do anything after being shot. He *was* armed with two weapons. Had they simply called the cops, they might be the ones in the hospital now. The guy ignored 3 warnings when a gun was pointed at him. What do you think would have happened if they had no gun? (Bear in mind, again, he *was* armed with two weapons.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
I think if somebody tries to steal something from my garage, I will let them because it will be a lot less stressful to let a police officer handle the situation.


Pretty stressful for your family, though, if you're killed for your own inaction. The only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 12/6/2009 1:15:29 PM >


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RE: Defended my home - 12/6/2009 1:18:58 PM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
If you don't have a gun the criminal doesn't either.


How in the world are you going to accomplish that?



Wishful thinking???  lol 



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