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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/18/2006 8:18:53 AM

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quote:

Are you willing to give up (or pause) your career in order to be in a service position full time?

Absolutely not. I might well pause my career for love, though.

quote:

If so, are you worried about your earning potential should you ever have to return to work?

Yes.

quote:

Do you worry about not being able to accumulate skills in your field?

A bit.

quote:

Do you worry about feeling any lack of self worth if your duties are strictly related to homemaking, housecleaning, or taking care of errands

Good question. Not sure. I'd have to do it for love with a Domme who supported my self worth with a lot of appreciation for both my work and myself. And we would have to be lovers, not just Domme/sub. And to top it off, I think I'd only do it if we were married as well. Even so, I'm not sure how long that would keep me satisfied.

I wonder if younger submissives or submissives who are less sure of their career prospects anyway would be more likely to go along with this. For someone with a very fulfilling career, either in the sense of a good income or, more importantly, a deep sense of accomplishment, I assume this would be harder.

quote:

(again -- aimed toward men: Do you feel emasculated when your male friends have jobs/careers and you do not?How do you address that)?

I think I would. The reaction of my family would be worse. I have no idea how I'd address it.

quote:

For sub men that have a career/job right now, would you be willing to give it up -- for good -- in order to be a stay at home submissive for the long term?

quote:

Would you be bored?

Depends on how much free time I had. I'm never bored if I have free time. And if I could listen to the radio or to books on tape when I was doing my chores, then no, I wouldn't be bored.

There's a thread in the Gorean board from a woman in Washington state who has a "kajirus" or male slave who both does housework and works as nanny full time. This is in a household with another female slave and a master who's away. My reaction when I read the thread was, "No, I could never do that" and then, "Well, maybe in the right circumstances, for a time."

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/18/2006 8:30:47 AM

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quote:

I grew up in an old-school Italian/Sicilian family .... my father, who was quite an orator, would dole out his words of wisdom to us kids. One of the things he emphasized over and over, was this :

''You can have the best mother, the best father, the best brothers, the best sisters, the best kids, and the best friends, but if you haven't got a job and you're not productive in this society, then you ain't shit.''

I see this as a very Italian thing, although I'm sure it applies to other nationalities as well. I'm half Italian-American myself and I see it in my own relatives. In my job I talk to a lot of business owners about their work, and it's the ones from an Italian heritage who emphasize work, work, work. Often they're the ones working long, long hours. Now lots of business people, especially business owners, work long hours, but it's the Italian-Americans who talk about it.

That's why I say my family's reaction would be a hurdle in accepting this kind of stay-at-home arrangement, even for a limited time.

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/18/2006 10:01:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

Well not to steal Aakasha's thread, but I am going to disagree--for Myself and a few other Dommes I know that are close to Me--for Myself---I wasn't looking for someone that "matched My income"--first of all that is very hard to do as I am one of those high earning Dommes you referred to--so I knew there was a good chance of financial disparity--the subs I met who could, were arrogant blowhards that were more "trophy boys" than a real submissive ( not making a sweeping generalization here guys--calm down)---I do not equate income with self worth--I do not equate a career with income--

Now given that--currently My boy has a job, he has his own company--it is something he likes to do, he is good at it--and it affords him the opportunity to make his own hours--mind you that freedom allowed him to be on-line at normal times to seek a Domme--for which I am extremely grateful <smiles>--unless he works 24/7 and grows that business to many employees, he will not match My income--that is not the point--My need, My desire is that when he moves with Me, he can continue with his business--he "contributes" something-- he continues to do what he likes and he indeed provides the market a valuable service--but I need him to attend to Me--to My house, My life--contributes because in the blink of an eye, I could be unemployed--but everyone in My home contributes---My teen started working at 14---So I am quite happy with the way things are--when he is with Me as he just was, we spend a tad more, when I am with him, we do things at home--he cooks, cares for Me--that IMHEO is priceless and valuable.

I'd also like to add, that your theory at least here in the US is a tad outdated----today in the US in middle income families----25% see the woman working and the man " Mr Mom"--at home caring for the kids etc---in the blink of an eye--"roles" get reversed-- layoffs are a daily occurence and most middle class families live one paycheck away from bankruptcy---I get testy when someone makes "earning an income in a relationship" gender specific---

Now to Aakasha's question--I want My boy to "contribute", I want him to continue his business when he gets here--he likes it, he's good at it, it's needed--BUT I need him with Me--to help, to serve, to attend---in a NY second I could be killed and he would need to go on--no matter how massive life insurance is--it won't last long.

So I elect to "carry" in your words, not Mine, I elect to build a life and a family-(oh and My Dad died 40 years ago and My Mom developed a substantial income, in a time when that just wasn't done)---but we had to survive--and I applaud My sisters who are quite ok with working while their men take care of the house duties--and btw--My three Domme friends feel the same way---their boys work--either organizing and managing the house and chores, or act as admins--and we are all quite happy---

IMHEO.

We've kind of had this discussion before wherein you would say, "vanilla women are idiots." Clearly you and Akasha see the benefits of departing from the Sarah Miller doctrine, but contra to your and Akasha's examples (which is not to negate them) I've seen and know women who regularly write off guys who don't have the "right job" and who in fact compromise their own personal and love criterea items in favor of seducing and marrying high earners. As we discussed in PMs a while back, it was like these ladies wanted a lifestyle out of their man and intimacy out of their girlfriends. It was a freaky world to me.

Still, Akasha's question is not one many men will have to answer, because in most households one income is not enough (85% I'd say) and because the Sarah Miller view predominates. Of course, MH, you are exceptional.

I guess when I rethink it, I do come closer to cloudboy's stereotype in that I did judge/evaluate my man based on some financial/career criteria. He didn't have any money, but I did consider whether or not he was employable and had earning potential. If he did not, I would not have dated him. I knew that he had earning potential that was unlimited based on his degree and abilities. Those criteria though have more to do with someones intellect and ambition. My partner is someone who doesn't have to work at a job. My partner is in no way lazy and does not have a lazy bone in his body. If he were lazy, he wouldn't be here.

He possess qualities that make it "ok" for him to not have a job, and these qualities to me are mandatory. They are:

* He has a need to grow intellectually and be challenged
* He has a need to be in service to a greater good or be a contributor (beyond just to me)
* He does not possess a slacker mentality in any way

What this means is that when he DOES have free time (we have no kids, so yes, he does often get things done and have time to spare) he isn't sleeping in late, playing video games or chatting online all day. He is reading books about business, philosophy and religion, or trade magazines so he can digest the information and be a resource for me. He's doing something healthy which I encourage him to do as much as possible: mountain biking, cycling or working out. Or, he's volunteering -- which right now because my current client is such that I don't demand much of his time -- he volunteers 20+ hours a week to a worthy cause that we both support. He can cut back those hours at any time and often does, but it's important to me that when given the choice between loafing in his free time and volunteering, he's volunteering his time. (and before any of the naysayers chime in, no, we don't make any money off of it, and the write-off is so small we don't bother).

I respect when a man says he would not want to give up his job/career because it gives him mental stimulation, somewhere that he can acheive goals and a sense of worth and self esteem. I would be concerned if a man did not say these things. The reality is that one can acheive these things as long as he is self motivated and has good self discipline. For me, personally, if I were not allowed to work I would have a very hard time staying focussed on tasks at hand and would be prone to being lazy. I have to either be overacheiving at a career with very specific goals and projects or I want to lounge and do nothing. If I were independently wealthy I would put myself into a volunteerism structure that operated much like a "real job" so that I did not get into a bad sleeping pattern, stuck online all day or blowing things off like exercise.

Akasha

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/18/2006 12:43:49 PM

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quote:

today in the US in middle income families----25% see the woman working and the man " Mr Mom"--at home caring for the kids etc

25%? That seems a little high. Where did you come up with that figure? I don't know of a single household that is ordered like that. Not one.

(in reply to MHOO314)

RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/18/2006 1:10:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine
I see this as a very Italian thing, although I'm sure it applies to other nationalities as well. I'm half Italian-American myself and I see it in my own relatives. In my job I talk to a lot of business owners about their work, and it's the ones from an Italian heritage who emphasize work, work, work. Often they're the ones working long, long hours. Now lots of business people, especially business owners, work long hours, but it's the Italian-Americans who talk about it.

That's why I say my family's reaction would be a hurdle in accepting this kind of stay-at-home arrangement, even for a limited time.

i grew up where everyone did whatever was needed to be done to "git it done". althought the women leaned toward home making and the men toward sweat labor, the women chopped wood and the men did house work and changed diapers when the occasion arose. there was no sacred men on the left and women on the right line that any one adhered to. so that would not be an issue in my family. knowledge of my proclivities however are another story entirely.

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/18/2006 1:24:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtlesubie

quote:

today in the US in middle income families----25% see the woman working and the man " Mr Mom"--at home caring for the kids etc

25%? That seems a little high. Where did you come up with that figure? I don't know of a single household that is ordered like that. Not one.

You may not in your "sphere" but it is very common in major areas where layoffs have occured--

More Men want Mr Mom

currently locating the link with the current stats--

< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 3/18/2006 1:50:51 PM >

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/18/2006 7:08:36 PM

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Though i know it would not be my Masters desire for me to do it, if it were sure i would. To serve as slave is the second priority of my life my kittens are the first. i wouldnt necessarily do it just for anyone or the velcro collar dom/mes but if i had that eternal commitment where i know all my needs are met i would not have an issue with it

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/18/2006 7:35:49 PM

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To answer simply i would have to say no. But......yep a but always..

If He were ill and needed me home, yes!
If He owned His own company and needed me to help there, yes!

But just to stay home, no. my career is part of who i am. It is where i expand my knowledge of the world, meet friends and coworkers, and also where i find most of my social attributes. i believe if He asked me to give all that up, He is not having my best interests at heart, and in that case would not be my Master.

jenna

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/18/2006 8:19:00 PM

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I would put things on hold for a variety of reasons.

Never work outside the home again? I don't think I could do it and be content. With both my children I stayed home two months and then worked only part time for another six weeks. Even WITH a new baby and this gig I had as a freelance writer I was insanely bored. Loved the tiny people, but needed more. It is not a lack of self worth though. I took six months off when my youngest was two due to some family health issues. Although I was assisting with that AND taking some online courses AND working on this web site business AND taking care of two kids -- I got bored then too. Then again, I have been begging for some boredom over the last year. :)

As a single mother, I have a lot of anxiety over providing for my children as well. Assuming those monetary needs were met in another way, I suspect I would still have bouts of panic about not being self sufficient.

I would worry a little over accumulating skills and earning potential, but it would be more of a general anxiety of "what if x happens and then what would I do." I would fret over health insurance, life insurance, retirement, college, and so on.

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/18/2006 8:34:04 PM

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quote:

I see this as a very Italian thing, although I'm sure it applies to other nationalities as well. I'm half Italian-American myself and I see it in my own relatives. In my job I talk to a lot of business owners about their work, and it's the ones from an Italian heritage who emphasize work, work, work. Often they're the ones working long, long hours. Now lots of business people, especially business owners, work long hours, but it's the Italian-Americans who talk about it.

Very true.... but I'll also have you know that United States Marine Corps also shares this very same ethic. Even guys who were sick on bed rest or light-duty, had to get themselves up and push a broom to cleanup the squad bay. There's no such thing as I'm sick or I can't work.... both legs better broken.

quote:

That's why I say my family's reaction would be a hurdle in accepting this kind of stay-at-home arrangement, even for a limited time.

I hear ya... If my family found out I was staying home while the lady worked, I'd be disowned and disinherited. End of story.

I had a long term relationship with a lady in San Francisco who was an administrator in a decent size hospital. She was completely solvent and her income was way above average.

There was many a time when she would hint to me that I could sell my business and take a less stressful approach to life and she would ''hold the fort down'' during the interim. I can't say it didn't sound appealing..... But in the end, there was just no way I could give into this.

For me, it's a team effort. And each member of the team has to remain on level playing field for it to work for me. I understand Aakasha's point of view and I'm damn impressed with women who are both willing and capable to carry such a burden, but it's not for me.

To borrow a quote from one of my favorite posters....

We become what we practice: For a man to stay home and take on the traditional role of a woman, will only attempt to further corrupt the dignity of manhood.

- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 3/18/2006 8:35:36 PM >

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/19/2006 2:48:37 AM

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As in all these types of discussion people tend to give reasons to support the status quo in their lives. It is this that makes me wonder when I meet someone new whether they are really into a lifestyle thing or whether they want to indulge their sexual fantasies. Maybe the two are the same thing, who knows? Certainly most submissives I meet are what I call part-time hobbyist submissives who like to be submissive in a scene and then afterwards get on being in control of their vanilla lives. That to me is merely sexual indulgence, I don't see nothing wrong in that but let's be honest about what it is and what it isn't and it's not a lifestyle thing.

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/19/2006 6:45:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

We become what we practice: For a man to stay home and take on the traditional role of a woman, will only attempt to further corrupt the dignity of manhood.

- The Ranger

And what of men who are divorced with sole custody, chose to adopt, or find themselves widowed with children--those are all "traditional women's roles" as well.

Let us hope that your income is so secure that you are never laid off, or for some reason you become seriously ill---then I guess you get thrown out like yesterday's news.

< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 3/19/2006 6:47:13 AM >

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/19/2006 7:04:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

And what of men who are divorced with sole custody, chose to adopt, or find themselves widowed with children--those are all "traditional women's roles" as well.

Yes but in such a situation a man isn't dependent on a woman.

This might be a gross generalisation but as much as I love women, I would never put my livelihood in the hands of one because despite us living in the age of so called equality, women on the whole still expect the man to provide or at least earn more than them.

As someone earlier in the thread pointed out, the majority of women see men who don't provide at least as much as they do, leaches. Women are happy with their own advancement but have yet to come to terms with the fact that the advancement of women mean that men can't provide as much as they traditionally have.

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/19/2006 7:12:39 AM

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These are tough things to consider. I've worked my entire life. I don't have a career. I have a job. I can relocate to a different job. The difficult part for me would be giving up my home, the equity ($$) in my home, and leaving my elderly parents, who will need me more in the future. What about my kids, one is an adult, the other isn't, I'd never make him relocate.

I've not seriously considered relocation as an option. But like anyone else, I often think, perhaps for the right person...

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/19/2006 7:23:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

And what of men who are divorced with sole custody, chose to adopt, or find themselves widowed with children--those are all "traditional women's roles" as well.

Yes but in such a situation a man isn't dependent on a woman.

This might be a gross generalisation but as much as I love women, I would never put my livelihood in the hands of one because despite us living in the age of so called equality, women on the whole still expect the man to provide or at least earn more than them.

As someone earlier in the thread pointed out, the majority of women see men who don't provide at least as much as they do, leaches. Women are happy with their own advancement but have yet to come to terms with the fact that the advancement of women mean that men can't provide as much as they traditionally have.

Well as cloudboy stated earlier, I am indeed the exception in many ways, for My boy to help with errands, housework, cooking etc, and to contribute where he can--is more valuable to Me then if his income matches Mine. I have never felt that I needed to be cared for by a man's income, I felt it was more important to be cared for by the man--a larger income IMHEO doesn't equate to care, love, or protection---I never depended on a man's income--and oh btw, I did both roles, I raised a child alone by choice and developed a good income--equal rights IMHEO, meant that whoever was in the house had equal time with the vacuum and the washer and dryer. I now have a man who makes less than I do, but who loves Me more than any man ever has and who in our short time together has shown what caring for Me can mean---and that is in My estimation---

priceless.

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/19/2006 9:09:22 AM

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quote:

to me being a man means doing something.

once again we differ...to me being a HUMAN means doing something. If you're rich enough to avoid the 9-5 then in my mind it's your duty to still help those not as fortunate. Get out for community events, support charities hell work making more money for all I care. Even housewives & financially supported slaves work it's just a matter of perception.

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/19/2006 9:20:24 AM

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quote:

Are you willing to give up (or pause) your career in order to be in a service position full time?

If asked to, yes.

quote:

If so, are you worried about your earning potential should you ever have to return to work?

Not in the least.

quote:

Do you worry about not being able to accumulate skills in your field?

No. It's fairly simple to keep up with any changes that may be made in my field, as long as one makes the decision to do so.

quote:

Do you worry about feeling any lack of self worth if your duties are strictly related to homemaking, housecleaning, or taking care of errands

Self-worth can be defined in many ways, for different people. I see no difference in the person who stays home compared to the one who goes to a job every day.

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RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/19/2006 12:54:20 PM

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quote:

And what of men who are divorced with sole custody, chose to adopt, or find themselves widowed with children--those are all "traditional women's roles" as well.

That quote was written in context of the OP's original query with regard to women working and the man staying home. Obviously if the man is widowed and/or retains sole custody while in the midst of a marital dispute, he would be forced to take on more nuanced role.

quote:

Let us hope that your income is so secure that you are never laid off, or for some reason you become seriously ill---then I guess you get thrown out like yesterday's news.

I pride myself in being judiciously prepared - It's as stable as the Rock of Gibraltar.

- The Ranger

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to MHOO314)

RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/19/2006 3:23:22 PM

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I am replying as a slave/submissive female. I did not read all of the posts, so I am not certain if my point of view has already been posted.

I have really done a lot of thinking on this topic lately, mainly due to my having turned 50 last year. I now must think about my retirement and the decades of life that stretch out ahead. I cannot quit my work and quit contributing to a pension and retirement fund that will sustain me throughout my retirement years. I have found that most men on here and on other sites expect the submissive to relocate and quit work. Yet they also do not consider the sacrifice and hardship that may entail if they were to suddenly pass away. The majority of men at this age who are single as single because of divorce and their ex-wives and children will be the one who are named in wills etc. I would receive nothing in order to live out the remainder of my days.

Therefore, unless that is clearly taken care of prior to relocation, I must remain working and contributing to my 'twilight years'. If this were the discussion even only 10 years ago, I would not be in this frame of mind. However, less life lies before me than behind. I now must begin to look and plan for the future a little more ardently.

Serving another is pointless if it is to the detriment of my own future.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

RE: Would you give up your career for submission? - 3/19/2006 4:07:19 PM

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If you give up a good job so that you can be with a man or woman you are either deranged or desperate in My humble opinion. I can not think of any other term for it. If a woman demanded that I leave My career to be with her I would waste no time in kicking her sorry, pathetic ass to the curb.

My wife wanted to relocate to a new city, thus causing Me to leave My business behind and start anew. I told her "See ya". Needless to say that idea went out the window and she is still with Me.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 3/19/2006 4:13:40 PM >

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