RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman

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RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 12/31/2009 3:10:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo
I guess that like with any change, there needs to be a sincere desire on behalf of the one that needs to mature. I don't mind working through this with a man.

Dead on and totally correct ... but the question i ask is ... can You really make the change ... or simply inspire and encourage it ???

I can't change anyone. I'm definitely not that presumptuous! They have to make the change themselves. I can however support them in their desire to change.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to seekingOwnertoo)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 12/31/2009 3:15:44 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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i am thinking You have a great understanding of Leadership ... and ... that You will do well ....

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 12/31/2009 3:32:32 PM

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quote:

I have found that, as I am the antithesis of the Dream Dominant, those expectations plague me almost everywhere I go. When I meet people off the internet, they expect someone with scads of leather and ominous furnishings that double as torture implements that's impeccably clean.

What they get is me in my jeans and a decent blouse, with a leather couch that I hate (the only leather in the house), and a pile of clean laundry that small children have gotten lost in. I don't wear make-up, I don't wear 8 inch heels that I use to puncture the balls of inferior men, but I'm just as Dominant as the woman that enjoys all that frou-frou that I don't.

I don't get anything out of that expectation, I don't want to live up to that expectation.

Those that come bearing that hope for a Dream Dominant get a choice, they either lose the desire for it, or they move on to someone more to their liking. I don't have time for people who don't have realistic goals.

Amen, Sister. If one more sub asks me if I own a leather corset or thigh high boots, I'll scream.

_____________________________

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

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RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 12/31/2009 3:37:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: masmiss
If one more sub asks me if I own a leather corset or thigh high boots, I'll scream.

What out, a screaming Domme might be one of their fetishes ;-)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to masmiss)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 12/31/2009 5:03:06 PM

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~fast reply~

OMG this thread is awesome!!!!!

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 12/31/2009 9:19:49 PM

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FR

Okay finally I'm getting to this...

Frankly I think sexy comes from inside. It has little to do with how I'm dressed. I tend towards business suits with over the knee skirts and my hair up in a french twist when I was in the corporate world. In the medical field I'm usually in scrubs. Regardless I get attention because it's an aura rather than a look I attempt to achieve.

I think I mentioned in a Cm mail that I often hear that I look too sweet or adorable as well. Or that I'm too "nice" to be a Domme. Again I put this up to the Bitch on Heels leather clad media portrayal of a Domme. As I've said often on these boards Being Dominant is one facet of who I am. I am Dominant whether I'm in my flannel gnome jammies and my moo cow fuzzy slippers or decked out in leather. I know that a low whispered request or threat is far more effective in getting my point across than screaming like a fishwife and snapping out orders. I can make someone shudder with a look. It comes from within not from whatever window dressing is on the outside.

I think the only way to change this media driven ideology of what a Domme is supposed to be/appear as is through us each simply being who and what we are as Dominant Women. They are dealing in fantasy...we are, however, the reality. Those that would rather have the fantasy of it...would perhaps be better off visiting the Pro Dommes because that fantasy image is not going to be coming from me. I dress however I wish to dress and whether that be leather, silk, yoga pants and a t-shirt or one of my suits doesn't matter. My power doesn't come from how I'm dressed. It comes from who I am within.

So I usually just ignore whatever little fantasy image someone has regarding what a Domme is supposed to look like. I continue t be me. If that isn't going to work then we aren't really going to match to begin with and it's best for us to each go on our separate ways. I'm certainly not going to change who I am in order to appeal to their ideology of what I should dress like or act like. So I'll continue to say "Please" Thank you" and 'Would you mind?" wearing my moo cow slippers and my hair half falling out of it's bun. Because eventually there's going to be someone out there somewhere that gets ME, and wants me exactly for who and what I am...not how I look in my thigh high leather boots.

To the Dommes, how do you deal with this? Does this ever discourage you? What do you do get out of that headspace? Is there anything that can be done to get a man who you think is worth the time and effort out of this headspace?

< Message edited by SDFemDom4cuck -- 12/31/2009 9:22:04 PM >

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She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 3:19:58 AM

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Ms Jo, I only got as far as "over the knee" once I have composed myself I will have another go at reading your post.

Whats the thread about again......

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 4:01:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

To the submissive men, have you ever felt torn about this? Have you ever honestly felt you were over fetishizing a Domme? Why do you think that was? How did you work through this? If applicable, how did a Domme help you work through this?

- LA

Okay LadyA, hands up, Im busted. Guilty as charged your honour. But, is it really so unexpected ? Some avatars, such as the one you are using, are dominant images. Yes it is exquisite, yes it is erotic, surely that is the whole point of it. So my initial thought, looking at an avatar like that, or a profile of a Domina with a whip, cane ect is, this Lady is dominant.

As has been stated, media portrayal surely makes for stereotypes, at least for an intial perception about someone. If I see a profile of a woman holding a cane, it transports me back to school, where one had to obey the rules. It isnt a case of me fetishising, its just how it is, based on prior experiences.

That said, if I want a relationship I look past that. I look to see what type of person I am interacting with. Is she honest, is she kind, does she make me laugh, are we a good match ect ect. The fact is we are all on a bdsm website, and by nature, intial perceptions will be one of dominance vs submission. By this I mean men looking for a very dominant woman, are more likely to gravitate to a very dominant photo.It seems to me that the problem is when we eroticise the clothing, persona ect, and that becomes the attraction, not the woman underneath the clothing. Maybe that is just how some, not all, submissive men are wired.

If you take vanilla dating as an example, men are accused of being anal about looks. This isnt as suprising as it seems though. History shows us that all the things we find attractive point to one thing. A healthy partner. In days gone be this was essential for survival of the species. I could go into detail here about the ratio effect in what we consider attractive, faces ect ( its 1 to 1:6 ) IE the mouth is 1.6 times wider than the nose.

For myself, a "glance" or an "excuse me" grabs my attention just as quick as someone holding a whip ( Granted the whip probably works quicker..lol ) Either type of domination, either the soft approach or the bitch approach works with me. I think I prefer the former, although that could change. My view on the so called traditional Domina " Look " is its just that, a "Look". It isnt the person and it isnt a projection of what I am thinking. It is dominant though, and yes it is sexy. I know not all men hold my views so your experiences may differ.

What helps halt the confussion, at least those that bother with them, are threads such as this one. We can all read and learn from one another. Males and females often hold different perceptions of things and as ever, communication is the key.

Anyhow, great question and some very insightful and helpful replies.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 5:09:57 AM

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This almost sounds like a comic book question, "Can you have a super hero without a costume."

I think the simple answer (or maybe over simplified answer) for women is to find the fashion that works for them. But (and now here's the rub) a woman's fashion must also work for her partner. Is this objectification or is it merely adopting to the world? Where is the line demarcating "glamorous" from "alienating" -- and "fashionable" from "objectifying?" What's the difference between "fetishised" and "sexy?"

Back to comic book analogies, after you get to know the super hero, you don't need to see them in costume anymore...... to understand their powers.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/1/2010 5:43:31 AM >

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 5:42:02 AM

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quote:

Okay LadyA, hands up, Im busted. Guilty as charged your honour. But, is it really so unexpected ? Some avatars, such as the one you are using, are dominant images. Yes it is exquisite, yes it is erotic, surely that is the whole point of it. So my initial thought, looking at an avatar like that, or a profile of a Domina with a whip, cane ect is, this Lady is dominant.

As has been stated, media portrayal surely makes for stereotypes, at least for an intial perception about someone. If I see a profile of a woman holding a cane, it transports me back to school, where one had to obey the rules. It isnt a case of me fetishising, its just how it is, based on prior experiences.

Right, it kind of begs the question of why Hollywood needs stars to portray ordinary people. Even "Ugly Betty" on TV is no more than a frumped up pretty woman.

The real question might be, how can anyone 1-6 on the scale of looks (scale of 10) get another to take genuine interest? (Nature has its "fetishes" too: hair, height, muscular build, breast size, penis size, waist size, etc.)

Dammit P53, why can't anyone just like me for who I am???

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 5:57:45 AM

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I'm still in shock......Women dress sexy, advertise themselves through the promotion of sexually explicit pics, suggestions and inuendo, then they chastise us for liking it.

Go figure.......lol.

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(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 7:46:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

First, I loved your post :-) Thanks!

Thank you

I wanted to take a moment and respond to a few things you mentioned and a few other comments made elsewhere on this thread.

quote:

Of course, I prefer the "outside of the box" type of male who doesn't need to fit society's image of the GQ/Maxim/yuppie man.

This is where we have to be careful not to judge a book by it's cover. I like the look of the urban gentleman, well groomed and classy. That doesn't mean he has to be a sheep in his mind.

I agree, which is what I meant when I went on to say "There's pressure on everyone to fit an ideal image....who comes up with these ideals anyway and why do we, in general, buy into them?" This was made even more personal for me while on vacation this past summer. While at a festival in Oregon, I was around many men and women who dropped out of the "Microsoft machine" to be true to themselves. One of my favorite conversations was with a man who quit his 6 figure salary job to buy 5 acres of land, build a yurt for he and his wife and start making raw milk jersey cow cheese and do metalwork. They both said it was the best choice ever.
My reference to the GQ/Maxim/yuppie look was less about the physical and more about the mentality and lifestyle choices. I think we, people in general, get caught up in what society and advertising firms tell us is sexy or acceptable in regards to how we look, live and act.

If I'm going to conform to anything, it will be to MY standards and how I want to live and be percieved...not how I'm told I could or should. I think it's quite clear by many of the female responses that there are many other women who feel the same way...thank Goddess!!!!

quote:

If that means being single because I don't fit this image of feminine perfection or bitch in heels...that works for me.

Life's too short to conform.

Well I don't think that you will be single because you don't fit an image of feminine perfection. We all know that not all men are that shallow.

I agree...my choice to be single has been MY choice. Just like now it's MY choice to be open to a relationship. As for men not being shallow...I remain hopeful and say that with tongue firmly in cheek!

And life might be too short to conform. But for me, it's also too short to stand idly by and not do anything to find the relationship that will make me happy.

Funny thing, I feel the same way and while I'm open to meeting someone here...I would prefer to find someone offline and out of the mainstream kink life. This goes back to the idea of trying to work a man out of his fetishizing/obectification of the image of a dominant woman. In fact, this whole thread has me thinking about what is it about a woman that makes her dominant. My list of positive dominant female influences doesn't have one Domme mentioned. But...that's another thread for another time!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
How someone views something is often not what is presented. How we look can mean different things to different people. And god... I remember going to court on rape cases where the woman was totally destroyed because she had on a fucking mini skirt and invited the shit head somehow!

If a man can't handle his turn on... or hard on and can't temper himself in a world of media that shows far more than Cher got condemned for... then it is his problem.

Thank you. I guess the mistake I make, not just online, is that I expect an adult to act like an adult.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo
Before i begin ... the first question that popped into my head about the depiction of the Dominant Woman ... is that this depiction is nothing more than a subset of how Women are presented in general .... after all doesn't the popular media often glamorize Women as sex objects ... even in vanilla venues?

And doesn't a great deal of media focus on the lowest common denominator ... men's adolescent sexual fantasies ... to sell products to Women? (And men?)

If You believe there is some truth to this perspective ... than i suggest the answer is buried somewhere in the word maturity ... or emotional maturity ... or to steal Abraham Maslow ... self actualization.

What a fantastic post, thanks for sharing and for posing these questions which I think fit perfectly with LadyAngelika's OP.
Just a glance through any of the current "woman's magazines" will show you that the idea of selling sex isn't just geared towards men. Women are bombarded with these ideal images...the sex kitten, the leather-clad bitch queen, the girl next door, heck even the image of motherly perfection. We're told what image works for what role we play at a given moment and if we don't strive for it or if we choose to deviate even just a bit from the acceptable we're told we are coping out as females. Just my experience and opinion, mind you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

quote:

I guess that like with any change, there needs to be a sincere desire on behalf of the one that needs to mature. I don't mind working through this with a man.

Dead on and totally correct ... but the question i ask is ... can You really make the change ... or simply inspire and encourage it ???

It has been my experience that I can't change a man. I can inspire him, only of he's open to that inspiration and only if he is open to me. I can encourage change but I can't expect him to see me as the reason for change...and to be honest, I don't think I'd want him to. As I mentioned earlier, I tried my hand at helping a man change his "mindset" and it was an exercise in futility. I learned my lesson and he's still searching for a woman to make him what he should (?) be. It is all about maturity and expectations, in my opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
What helps halt the confussion, at least those that bother with them, are threads such as this one. We can all read and learn from one another. Males and females often hold different perceptions of things and as ever, communication is the key.

Agreed. One of the things I like about this forum is the fact that I get to read so many different views/opinions about a topic. Reminds me of a quote I read from Dorothy Fuldheim (yeah, I was taking a stroll down memory lane of my days spent watching Channel 5 News in Ohio). She said "It takes a disciplined person to listen to convictions which are different from their own". We don't have to agree but it does help to listen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Back to comic book analogies, after you get to know the super hero, you don't need to see them in costume anymore...... to understand their powers.

Excellent...kind of sums up this entire thread in one sentence. I may have to borrow that quote, if you don't mind.

_____________________________

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(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 7:48:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

I have tremendous respect for what women have gone through regarding their equality and recognition. Sexual repression is a result of a few things over time, and I for one, don't want us men to have to fight for our rights to sexual expression down the road. Calling us wankers and sex addicts because we respond NATURALLY to womens sexual personas almost guarantees that we'll be just as far in the hole as you females were. lol. It's kind of like cutting off our noses to spite our faces...

Per this and your last post, there is something you are just NOT GETTING.

Appreciating, finding someone attractive or sexy is one thing. I believe all human beings, male or female, like to feel appreciated, sexy, be aware that someone finds them attractive. That is human nature.

The KEY is how you conduct yourself in expressing that appreciation. If you ACT like a wanker or sex addict via your expression, you will be thought one by some people.

I have told many MANY women that I thought they were beautiful, sexy, attractive.........whatever.......I have NEVER been called a wanker or sex addict. I also express how much I love their brain, sense of humour, whatever their particular qualities are that make them uniquely them.

No one is saying you cannot look and appreciate. Feel a nice little warm tingle even. But behave like a 15 yo boy in heat and you will get yourself smacked, either literally or figuratively.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 1/1/2010 7:50:12 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Underumam)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 8:13:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Underumam

I have tremendous respect for what women have gone through regarding their equality and recognition. Sexual repression is a result of a few things over time, and I for one, don't want us men to have to fight for our rights to sexual expression down the road. Calling us wankers and sex addicts because we respond NATURALLY to womens sexual personas almost guarantees that we'll be just as far in the hole as you females were. lol. It's kind of like cutting off our noses to spite our faces...

Per this and your last post, there is something you are just NOT GETTING.

Appreciating, finding someone attractive or sexy is one thing. I believe all human beings, male or female, like to feel appreciated, sexy, be aware that someone finds them attractive. That is human nature.

The KEY is how you conduct yourself in expressing that appreciation. If you ACT like a wanker or sex addict via your expression, you will be thought one by some people.

I have told many MANY women that I thought they were beautiful, sexy, attractive.........whatever.......I have NEVER been called a wanker or sex addict. I also express how much I love their brain, sense of humour, whatever their particular qualities are that make them uniquely them.

No one is saying you cannot look and appreciate. Feel a nice little warm tingle even. But behave like a 15 yo boy in heat and you will get yourself smacked, either literally or figuratively.

I don't act like a 15 year old boy, and I resent the implication. I am not afraid to see through what many here seem to enjoy deluding themselves about on a daily basis. My reactions to this topic are based upon my personal experiences over many years. My statements are not directed at any one person, but are offered up as "in a nut-shell type of statements". YOU do NOT now how I conduct myself or express my appreciation for a woman's beauty and/or sexuality. I can assure you that if I was disrespectful and/or offensive, I would not be in service to D right at this very moment.

Now here's a couple of statements that are directed at someone. Are you denying or wishing us to believe that Dommes do not use sex as a means of attracting males? Don't use sex as a means of manipulating males? Do not dress sexy with intent to entice, and so on? If so, I'll check and see if there's an extra "dose of reality pill" lying around somewhere that I can give you.

As for wearing leather because "it feels good"...lol.(Lady Pact) I used to hand-craft leather and love it myself. I can assure you that if you do not intent to project a sexy image there are many patterns available for making non-enticing leather wearables. Liking the feel of leather is not a good excuse IMHO......

< Message edited by Underumam -- 1/1/2010 8:14:20 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 8:19:21 AM

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Good grief! A bit tetchy and over sensitive aren't you?!?

I never once suggested I thought you ARE any of those things. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that we were discussing 'men' not you specifically. Generic 'you'. But if the shoe fits.......

You are whining via your posts about men, perhaps you, suffering for seeing dominant women or women as a whole, for sex objects rather than complete women and individuals, with far more to the whole, than a fetish delivery object. I am suggesting a solution to that problem...........for whomever is plagued with the problem.

It's no secret that I love women and find women sexually attractive. Yet, as an example, just because I see a photo of a beautiful woman in a leather corset (LadyPact) does NOT mean I only see a beautiful woman in a leather corset to get wet and pant over. There are so many other things that make her an amazing woman that I completely forget her photo specifics. Yet it appears that the men you speak of, are seeing the beautiful woman and leather corset and their little pea brain just stops and sees nothing else. Then has the audacity to blame HER for their mental and MORAL inadequacies. That is what I am calling bullshit on.

Quit being so bloody whiny and defensive.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 1/1/2010 8:25:29 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Underumam)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 8:31:41 AM

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This same phenomenon exists even without femdom thrown into the mix. Basically men want women to be like strippers and porn stars, and women want men to be more like romance novel or romantic comedy characters. Damn that Hugh Grant! It takes continual effort for us to reach across that gender divide.

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(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 8:32:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Good grief! A bit tetchy and over sensitive aren't you?!?

I never once suggested I thought you ARE any of those things. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that we were discussing 'men' not you specifically. Generic 'you'. But if the shoe fits.......

You are whining via your posts about men, perhaps you, suffering for seeing dominant women or women as a whole, for sex objects rather than complete women and individuals, with far more to the whole, than a fetish delivery object. I am suggesting a solution to that problem...........for whomever is plagued with the problem.

It's no secret that I love women and find women sexually attractive. Yet, as an example, just because I see a photo of a beautiful woman in a leather corset (LadyPact) does NOT mean I only see a beautiful woman in a leather corset to get wet and pant over. There are so many other things that make her an amazing woman that I completely forget her photo specifics. Yet it appears that the men you speak of, are seeing the beautiful woman and leather corset and their little pea brain just stops and sees nothing else. Then has the audacity to blame HER for their mental and MORAL inadequacies. That is what I am calling bullshit on.

Quit being so bloody whiny and defensive.

I haven't blamed anyone for my moral inadequacies, as I have few....However, I'm not whining so much about men seeing women as sex objects as I am about women portraying themselves as such. And for the most part--THEY DO! Women triffle with men all the time.
This is the main thing I'm saying. If you can't even perform enough introspection to admit this one little fact alone, you would never be able to -Oh, never mind...

< Message edited by Underumam -- 1/1/2010 8:33:00 AM >

_____________________________

Proud and devoted collared servant of D~

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 8:40:10 AM

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So you are saying that women are responsible for how men behave. I am saying that is bullshit.

Pick the hottest women I can imagine and put her right smack in front of me in the most sexually attractive dress/position/words possible and there is only ONE person responsible for how I behave towards her and it sure as hell isn't her.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Underumam)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 8:47:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

So you are saying that women are responsible for how men behave. I am saying that is bullshit.

Pick the hottest women I can imagine and put her right smack in front of me in the most sexually attractive dress/position/words possible and there is only ONE person responsible for how I behave towards her and it sure as hell isn't her.

LaT, I am assuming you are a woman looking at other women.
As a woman, how can you speak for how men think?
If the two men above say that is how they think, how can you tell them HOW they think?
That makes no sense to me.

I am a woman, and I cannot think for men, because I am not a man.
This is what is confusing me.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

RE: The Over-Fetishization of the Dominant Woman - 1/1/2010 8:47:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

So you are saying that women are responsible for how men behave. I am saying that is bullshit.

Pick the hottest women I can imagine and put her right smack in front of me in the most sexually attractive dress/position/words possible and there is only ONE person responsible for how I behave towards her and it sure as hell isn't her.

Not at all, I don't believe in victims on any level....I am saying that women know males will react to certain stimuli, and any time I hear a woman say this is not so, or that they don't do that in this lifestyle- I call bull shit.......

Gotta run- Happy New Year...

_____________________________

Proud and devoted collared servant of D~

(in reply to LaTigresse)

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