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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 10:20:28 PM

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I essence I could raise a debate by asking;

Is somebody a doormat if they allow another person to literally piss all over them? This becomes rather subjective to other people's own hard limits. Do these limits somehow make anybody more or less submissive.

If a Dom wants to piss all over a submissive that has a hard limit with watersports, should they be expected to internally question/critique their Dom wants in this case?

People will be wondering, OMG.. am I a doormat for letting somebody piss all over me. God, has this gone too far? Is my Dom really truely abusing me now and I've lost my judgement skills? Has my Dom lost thier judgement skills?

You generally don't see threads like this using Doormat in this context, because Doormat implies to a set of acceptable treatment that is implied regarding basic human rights, dignity and respect.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 2/23/2010 10:25:41 PM >

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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 10:32:29 PM

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I tried to stay out of this one, but what the hey. Is beth here yet? *Looks around, spots beth, gives her a hug* Yep, now the party can start! She usually (very politely) kicks my ass in these discussions

quote:

If anything the concept of Doormat being tossed around, leads to some submissives feeling ashamed and questioning themselves. Doormat has a negative connotations. I personally think the Doormat label being tossed around causes more harm than good at times. I'd much rather make fun of the Doormat label any day then give it credence and honor.

I completely agree with this. TBH, "doormat" is one term that I personally wish had never crossed the rubicon into the land of verbal pervertibles.

quote:

It's an interesting point, true. Although, if we were to use it as precedent and try to rescind the use of words that etymologically have potential negative implications then we'd be in the same boat with "slave", wouldn't we?

And aren't we? A glance at any one of the 10 million-odd sub vs slave threads indicates that the answer may be "yes".

One problem with redefining words is that the original definition is still there, including any positive or negative connotations associated with it. This creates confusion, which is exacerbated by the question of whose "new" definition is correct.

quote:

It does ultimately seem to be a term that is used by some to describe a hypothetical situation in which one would consider themselves ashamed and/or in peril of being put into shame via their obedience.

In BDSM vernacular, perhaps. In a vanilla context, (as pointed out by Win's dictionary definition) it is considered a shameful, or at least negative, thing to be a doormat. Personally, I have never seen a vanilla person who gets joy out of being of service to others described as a doormat. Such people are usually described as "helpful", "giving", "loving", "going above and beyond the call" and a host of other nice things. Vanilla people that are called "doormats" by others are usually very unhappy about being used, abused, humiliated, and/or taken advantage of; but cannot or will not change their situation due to lack of self esteem, extreme shyness, or other issues. Most of us know or have known people like this, and have listened to them complain about how they are treated and how unhappy they are.

For me, this is the crux of it, and why I have such a problem attempting to wrap my head around the concept of "doormat" as a positive thing.

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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 10:38:51 PM

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I hate taking out the trash, but still do it anyways. Does this make me a doormat?

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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 10:47:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Vanilla people that are called "doormats" by others are usually very unhappy about being used, abused, humiliated, and/or taken advantage of; but cannot or will not change their situation due to lack of self esteem, extreme shyness, or other issues. Most of us know or have known people like this, and have listened to them complain about how they are treated and how unhappy they are.

People in relationships where their limits are being violated, and they feel helpless in regards as to how to change anything. Basically, somebody with weak boundaries and their limits end up getting violated constantly.

WyldHrt, loved your post.. hope you don't mind me sort of paraphrasing it like this.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 2/23/2010 11:01:46 PM >

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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 11:05:30 PM

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~FR

Hmmm.. since it was my post on the other thread that started all this, im going to chime in once again.

First, i do not consider submissives or slaves "doormats" simply because they wish to be pleasing. Second, i have known many women, vanilla and lifestyle, who were dooramts. It was always my understanding that a doormat was anyone who would do anything, become anything, endure anything, force anything, simply to keep the affections and attentions of another. It could be because she/he is that much in love. It could be out of fear of physical harm, it could be to prevent emotional harm. In these situations, someone is taking advantage of another in harmful, neglectful ways.

Someone brought up the idea of golden showers. Hey! if you like that sort of thing.. go for it! My response on that other thread was after seeing so many say.... i would not chose a man who would have me do such a thing. Others said they would walk if asked. If your moral fiber is that dead set against doing such an act, yet you do so to prevent someone from walking out of your life who had just asked you to do that act your moral fiber demands you dont do, then what do you call such a person... but a doormat.

If you are always putting everyone else's needs above your own, you might be a doormat. If you give and give and give of yourself, but never receive anything back, you might be a doormat. If you allow others to toss you around with their words, like a leaf in a wind storm, you might be a doormat. If you let others hurt you over and over again, and keep going back for more, you might be a doormat.

http://www.ehow.com/how_5265493_not-doormat-people.html

We dont always like the commands we receive. There are days when we dont wish to obey. But we do to please, its natural for a submissive to want to please on some level. When that level becomes harmful to one, then its entering doormat territority.

I make no judgements beyond that. I dont ask people how they feel about their relationships, are they happy, content, upset, disturbed, ect. To me, and this is simply my opinion, if you have to qualify an answer with... my owner would not ask that of me... then further explain you would walk if he/she did... then you are not a doormat. that does not mean you are not submissive, or even a slave. nor am i saying because you chose too, that it makes you happy to give in to your partner regardless of his whim, that you are a doormat.

there is a distinction here. i wont point it out.

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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 11:24:00 PM

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tazzygirl,

Your post and the link you shared, provoked a little thought regarding Doormat from the vanilla context (in regards to the article itself). Where somebody can be too much of a doormat, that it causes troubles/problems in a D/s relationship. Where outside forces such as friends, family and such place demands upon the submissive. Basically, where the submissive ends up catering and trying to please everybody.

Mind you this article you presented is vanilla, written without thought or consideration for lifestyle D/s relationships. It does raise some interesting points.

A submissive that's a doormat in this context, ironic as it sounds may result in there being issues/problems in the D/s relationship. Because their submissive behavior is all over the place and not focused upon the D/s relationship alone. The sub may end up feeling a bit like a piece of rope in a tug of war contest.

Mind you, I did not think about this context when reading the OP. However, this very much would apply. Even more so if she did not stop and question/critique the wants of others being placed upon her. I can see a Dom truely getting upset by some rather "thoughtless" behavior here. Ummmm... interesting.

More food for thought.

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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 11:34:59 PM

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quote:

WyldHrt, loved your post.. hope you don't mind me sort of paraphrasing it like this.

Not at all

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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 11:36:39 PM

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I'm still reflecting upon this (posted in link tazzygirl shared).

"Lastly, but very important also, learn to say NO! It's okay to say no, you can't be everything to everyone. When you spread yourself that thin, there is no YOU to give to others."

How this can detract or cause problems with a persons D/s relationship. This would of course ironically call for the slave/submissive to work on creating and maintaining boundaries.

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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 11:44:44 PM

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Good lord, I never thought about a Doormat being like a stray dog that wonders all over the neighborhood with the owner having to constantly hunt it down and drag it back home.

:-) do I get bonus points for using a demeaning analogy?

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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 11:48:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

I started thinking about the term again while browsing this thread.

Initially, this is intended to invite discussion into the reasons and views concerning the word having such a negative connotation and what each of us views as the traits indicative of someone we would label a doormat.

And then, as I was organizing my thoughts to begin this thread, an ironic musing struck me:

What is the difference between a doormat and a sub/slave in a relationship so trustworthy that demands made by hir D-type aren't even internally critiqued/questioned?

Have you ever heard the joke about the difference between a bitch and a slut?

A slut will sleep with anyone; a bitch will sleep with anyone but you.

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RE: Doormats - 2/23/2010 11:57:01 PM

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So far, this is the best.. that I'm able to come up with here that applies to BDSM and vanilla contexts.

Doormat = Somebody that lacks the assertive discipline of boundary management.

Anybody else?

I'm thinking about all those submissive profiles that read, "I don't want to be treated like a doormat" meaning I want somebody that respects my boundaries and limits.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 2/24/2010 12:05:39 AM >

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RE: Doormats - 2/24/2010 1:30:10 AM

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The Process

It's late at night and this topic rather interesting for me personally. hope nobody minds that I'm using this thread at the moment to sort through some provoking thoughts. I know this is NZ thread and he's the OP. I was rather guilty of engaging in some thread-hijacking earlier, in fact it almost lead to this thread being 9-11'd into the ground. Why? Because I cared to not give Credence nor honor to the concept of "Doormat" submissives. At least in the context which it get's bantered about.

Initially, NZ intended to invite discussion into the reasons and views concerning the word having such a negative connotation and what each of us views as the traits indicative of someone we would label a doormat. I'm sort of stepping back from his "Ironic Musing", and work out some form of view with reason concerning the word having negative connotations and the traits of what a doormat is.

Tazzygirl and WyldHrt, I love you guys... it's late at night and hell it's good to see somebody else up late at night posting.

Current Provoking thoughts I'm having

Doormat Daddy Doms - kind of interesting when you remove orientation out of the equation ain't it. There are some that view Daddy Doms as being rather soft and a bit like a doormat. Provoking, ain't it. The article that tazzygirl can and does apply to some Dominants. Where the Dom, the person that is Master of Granting or Denying wishes, just can't seem to say NO. Where they have a hard time saying NO to their little girls and everybody else in the world. Daddy has to have a hand in being the leader in solving the whole worlds problems. Interesting, almost white knight like. Trying to be in charge of everybody else's issues/problems.

I'm sort of leaning towards this untested definition for the moment.

quote:

Doormat = Somebody that lacks the assertive discipline of boundary management

Discipline - not a very popular subject on the message boards, generally punishment is the focus of this topic. However, it's painfully clear that the article tazzygirl shared, stresses one becoming more disciplined in establishing and maintaining boundaries.

A Doormat submissive might end up being like a stray dog that wonders all over the neighborhood with the owner having to constantly hunt it down and drag it back home.

A Doormat Dominant might end up being like a Super Hero (batman) that wonders all over the neighborhood with their submissive partner wondering if she should cook dinner or not, or when he's really coming home.

Doormat Abuse if a submissive lacks the discipline to set and maintain boundaries, they tend to suffer and are miserable and feeling helpless to change anything (as per WyldHrt post). It ends up chewing into their own self esteem and sense of worth.

I'm seriously questioning if the lack of discipline is the key factor in what is or is not a True Doormat?

I'm also questioning things such as "Doormat Daddy Doms" or "White Knights" that fall into the same category? (shocking though)

Anybody have any thoughts on all this?

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 2/24/2010 1:31:12 AM >

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RE: Doormats - 2/24/2010 1:32:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4
Doormat = Somebody that lacks the assertive discipline of boundary management.

Anybody else? ...

-=The Definition So Far=-

doormat:

1. has no self esteem
2. has no autonomy
3. they have no backbone
4. they have no self worth
5. has no pride
6. gets walked on
7. stands by weakly while some one uses, abuses, and generally disrespects them
8. someone you can trample, stomp on, and treat poorly in all manner, and will still lay at his front door despite feeling completely abused and unhappy in the relationship.
9. obedient and compliant while being forced to do things that are sincerely harmful
10. unquestioningly obeys whoever comes along first, and then later realizes that this was a stupid decision
11. does not display self-awareness, prowess or confidence.

That is quite a list. It takes some serious pessimists to stack up all those opinions and definitions. Even if it is in accord with the Urban Dictionary, it seems foul minded. Like the thread the OP mentioned which asked what a slave owner would expect if he asked his slave to do X. It was flooded with answers from subbies with attitudes proclaiming whether or not they would do X or not, what they thought of a man that would ask them to do X and what they thought of you if you felt someone should do X . . . LMAO . . . no one was talking to submissives in the first place.

-=Urban Dictionary Says=-
Somebody who is always walked all over
"Damn, that loser is such a doormat, he'll do anything you'll tell him!"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doormat

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RE: Doormats - 2/24/2010 1:53:08 AM

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I think if we are going to Give Credence and Honor to Doormats... we'd better start talking about "Doormat Daddy Doms" and "WhiteKnight Doormats" and "Service Top Doormats" and apply the label equally here without the Submissives taking the Whole Wrap for it.

I'm certain a number of Daddy Doms would be up in arms just as much as some submissives are at the thoughts of the prospects of being labeled a doormat, All because they do things for somebody else without giving it too much second thought.

How do you like me now? I'm being a real bastard ain't I? Slapping labels around like little stickers everywhere. It's sort of like fucking with somebody's lunch box, you know.

Everybody needs to equally feel this shame and humilation, perhaps wake the fuck up and realize the importance of the other meaning to the letter D in BDSM, and it's just not about spanking ass. Pffffttt.. I've truely went off the rails now... I'm on the crazy train... Hhaaa Haaaa.. All aboard.... (cranking up Ozzy now).

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 2/24/2010 2:03:55 AM >

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RE: Doormats - 2/24/2010 2:13:26 AM

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-=The Definition So Far=-

doormat:

1. has no self esteem (resulting from lack of asserting boundary or no Boundary)
2. has no autonomy (Lack of asserting Boundary or no Boundary)
3. they have no backbone (lack of asserting boundary or no boundary)
4. they have no self worth (result of lack of boundary)
5. has no pride (questionable, subject to debate and kill from list)
6. gets walked on (result of lack of boundary)
7. stands by weakly while some one uses, abuses, and generally disrespects them (does not assert boundary, lack of boundary)
8. someone you can trample, stomp on, and treat poorly in all manner, and will still lay at his front door despite feeling completely abused and unhappy in the relationship. (Again from lack of Boundary and asserting it)
9. obedient and compliant while being forced to do things that are sincerely harmful (yet again Boundary issue)
10. unquestioningly obeys whoever comes along first, and then later realizes that this was a stupid decision (yet again Boundary issue)
11. does not display self-awareness, prowess or confidence. (rephrase to appears to show, however lack of asserting boundary or no boundary)

This is what I'm seeing.. perhaps I'm wrong....

No Discipline = No setting Boundary + No Asserting Boundary = Doormat

Applies to Dominant, Submissive, Switch and Vanilla.

This does not apply in the context of a well discplined slave, since the owner sets the boundary and the slave obeys and is well disciplined to follow. The slave might appear to be a Doormat, however does not lack discipline. The slave is not off trying to please the world and everybody in it, has high levels of self esteem and self worth. Clearly not a doormat???

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 2/24/2010 2:39:52 AM >

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RE: Doormats - 2/24/2010 3:01:30 AM

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Differences to reflect upon for a moment for consideration here?

Disciplined slave vs. Doormat slave
Disciplined submissive vs. Doormat submissive
Disciplined Dominant vs. Doormat Dominant

Also what other questions can be explored?

What about issues such as Dom treating a submissive with a lot of self discipline as if they have no self discipline? A bit like treating somebody like a little child.

What about submissives that lack a lot of self discipline, what roles or functions do protectors have? I know a lot of people don't give credence to protectors, however if we are going to give credence to Doormats... should we not consider protectors as being of value?

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 2/24/2010 3:02:52 AM >

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RE: Doormats - 2/24/2010 3:17:39 AM

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im not sure if we havent made a leap here from submission perse, to people who find themselves in abusive relationships.

if that is the case then havent we moved from BDSM to relationships in general.

if we are to stand from one specific marker that says we are not in abusive relationships we are in symbiotic relationships, anything beyond that rubicon does not or should not (at least) be considered BDSM. its a bit puritanical as a stance, since abuse happens in all types of relationships, but it is not BDSM as we see it and choose to live it.

take out safe sane and concensual and you are left with abusive - that cannot and should never be attached to BDSM, Ds or Ms, abuse should not belong in this place, when it does happen it is not something we accept or recognise as something we 'do'.

therefore we are returning the term 'doormat' to the vanilla forum, and in my opinion they can have it.

i dont think abuse is the answer to this question. noone who uses the term 'doormat' is thinking 'abuse' theyre thinking and saying, 'im not a schmuck, dont treat me like one' - what happens once in a relationship is something else again, but we are talking about profiles and of people still looking who have a misconception or fear that submission is about squashing their individuality and personality.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 2/24/2010 3:32:38 AM >

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RE: Doormats - 2/24/2010 3:29:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

This is what I'm seeing.. perhaps I'm wrong....

No Discipline = No setting Boundary + No Asserting Boundary = Doormat

Applies to Dominant, Submissive, Switch and Vanilla.

This does not apply in the context of a well discplined slave, since the owner sets the boundary and the slave obeys and is well disciplined to follow. The slave might appear to be a Doormat, however does not lack discipline. The slave is not off trying to please the world and everybody in it, has high levels of self esteem and self worth. Clearly not a doormat???

*snipped for brevity

i really like this description and was trying to say something similiar in my post. Most on here that i have seen that call themselves doormats, do so in terms of a relationship, again not all, but most. So that inside that relationship, they have given up the right to hold pesonal boundaries where their Dominant or Master can not go or they now longer feel the need of self protection with that person. To me, that would not be an accurate classification as a doormat, because they do have personal boundaries, they are simply in a safe environment letting go of them.

The conversation between NZ and Simone (i think i am remembering correctly) seems to be addressing the people who can't (for whatever reason) or don't ever hold their personal self-protective boundaries. For them, it would be a matter, as Beth said, of being with someone of integrity who cherished who and how they are, instead of someone sucking the life out of them and then discarding them (ie using them for all that they are worth and then replacing them with a new version which is exactly what one does to the real doormats -- it is now longer as pretty, or is looking a little the worse for wear, lets get a new one). And that last description, is part, in my opinion, of why there is such a visceral response to the term "doormat", that many of us fear, because of life experiences, allowing someone to "walk" all over us, and we equate that with being so unimportant in that person's life that when he or she is done walking all over us, that then we will be replaced with a newer, prettier model to walk all over.

Because i think that is part of, at least for me, who has definitely, strongly fought doormatish tendencies, my fear of ever becoming a slave, as i have lived a life where i seemed to be so easily discarded. i have had to learn how to say no, had to learn how to make the no stick and not waffle, i have had to learn how to not let anyone and everyone take advantage of me. i have had to learn some self respect and boundaries, and that some behavior towards me is not acceptable. i don't want to lose who i have become, i have fought long and hard, cried many tears to become the person who i am today. But these thoughts may be part of another thread, or maybe some personal correspondence offline.

heartfelt

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RE: Doormats - 2/24/2010 6:05:05 AM

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It's obvious to me that even though we have healthy prime examples of people living this way..some will never be able to get over their own prejudices with the word.

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RE: Doormats - 2/24/2010 6:26:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4
Doormat = Somebody that lacks the assertive discipline of boundary management.

Anybody else? ...

-=The Definition So Far=-

doormat:

1. has no self esteem
2. has no autonomy
3. they have no backbone
4. they have no self worth
5. has no pride
6. gets walked on
7. stands by weakly while some one uses, abuses, and generally disrespects them
8. someone you can trample, stomp on, and treat poorly in all manner, and will still lay at his front door despite feeling completely abused and unhappy in the relationship.
9. obedient and compliant while being forced to do things that are sincerely harmful
10. unquestioningly obeys whoever comes along first, and then later realizes that this was a stupid decision
11. does not display self-awareness, prowess or confidence.

That is quite a list. It takes some serious pessimists to stack up all those opinions and definitions. Even if it is in accord with the Urban Dictionary, it seems foul minded. Like the thread the OP mentioned which asked what a slave owner would expect if he asked his slave to do X. It was flooded with answers from subbies with attitudes proclaiming whether or not they would do X or not, what they thought of a man that would ask them to do X and what they thought of you if you felt someone should do X . . . LMAO . . . no one was talking to submissives in the first place.

-=Urban Dictionary Says=-
Somebody who is always walked all over
"Damn, that loser is such a doormat, he'll do anything you'll tell him!"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doormat

A list that is interestingly enough almost identical to the definition of a doormat as described here:

http://www.tellinitlikeitis.net/2010/01/people-pleasers-and-doormats-care-what-people-think-about-them.html

This snippet seems to aptly sum up the difference between the negative connotation of a doormat, and those who self identify as one:

Do things for others because you really care about them and want to, rather than out of fear that they won’t like you or will abandon you if you don’t do what they want. Stop allowing other people’s opinions, needs or wants to control or dictate who or what you are as a person.

Perhaps the true definition of doormat lies not within the actions, but within the motivation behind them.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Doormats

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