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RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 6:56:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

Therefore when you actually Know enough about me to state what I can or can't understand. I would suggest you ask first! Instead of making stupid suggestions

These exact words can be used toward anyone making any judgment on anyone else.

Until you've walked a mile in another man's shoes....

No.. these words are not about Judgement... They are words about Stating what another understands or doesn't understand.. Two seperate issues.

I can appreciate that sskitten is seeking to find others that can understand her situation and her conflicts. Frankly, I can can't understand them nor will anyone else. Only she can understand her situation and make choices. However, I do understand my principles of Integrity and Consent. I make judgement on those. If someone thinks they can validate breaking these principles that is their choice. But, I will not understand their reasons and I will not judge it any less than the actions dictate. They are my principles... I have to live with them not someone else! I do not claim people can't make choices to lie and cheat to their significant partner and often break vows in the process. But, I will not deny my principles that are a part of who I am. Nor will I call anyone friend or seek friendship with anyone that lies or cheats to their significant partner. In my mind, if they can lie to their significant partner, what stops them from lying to me a person that is clearly of less significance in comparison to their partner.

second point, just because I may judge it wrong for me and avoid people like this... doens't mean one can't have mercy and forgiveness for these actions. But first, one needs to show they are not going to travel a path that frankly is of questionable integrity.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 7:00:28 PM

METOO

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Very well said KOM

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 7:06:01 PM

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Typically we judge that which we do not understand (and also that which we do!). Your intent was not to use those words as judgment. my post was saying it is my opinion that they can also be used regarding judgement. my post was not directly aimed at you or at anyone in particular.

People make judgments based on their principles. It is my opinion that one can judge, and one can have an opinion, but in my own personal experiences, i have learned it is not always good for me to condem others, even if i judge them or do not understand. Even if what they are doing goes against what i value as principles. It is simply the way i try to conduct my life.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 11:24:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

Question Cloudboy. How does one profess to be a part of lifestyle and yet knows they are being dishonest. In reference to the Lifestyle, I sure as heck do distainfully judge them. It's wrong and it is wrong to both victims to be subjected to it

I've met many many people in the lifestyle that have been dishonest. In another thread were someone was complaining about a bad experience, there were a lot of people who in this thread proffess honesty at all times, were saying why should this person expect people to be more honest in the life style than society at large!

(in reply to METOO)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 6:46:21 AM

METOO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

Question Cloudboy. How does one profess to be a part of lifestyle and yet knows they are being dishonest. In reference to the Lifestyle, I sure as heck do distainfully judge them. It's wrong and it is wrong to both victims to be subjected to it

I've met many many people in the lifestyle that have been dishonest. In another thread were someone was complaining about a bad experience, there were a lot of people who in this thread proffess honesty at all times, were saying why should this person expect people to be more honest in the life style than society at large!

Because we are not talking about society at large. We are talking a one on one relationship. A "lifestyle" relationship. Lifestyle expects, no demands honesty and the corresponding trust. If I'm giving that honesty and abiding by lifestyle principles, I expect nothing nothing less in return. When and if, I learn that such is not the case, then quite obviously that trust has been broken. A wall develops. In reference to the two people, obviously it no longer really is a lifestyle relationship

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 6:54:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

Because we are not talking about society at large. We are talking a one on one relationship. A "lifestyle" relationship. Lifestyle expects, no demands honesty and the corresponding trust. If I'm giving that honesty and abiding by lifestyle principles, I expect nothing nothing less in return. When and if, I learn that such is not the case, then quite obviously that trust has been broken. A wall develops. In reference to the two people, obviously it no longer really is a lifestyle relationship

Let me repeat - In another thread was someone was complaining about a bad experience, there were a lot of people who in this thread proffess honesty at all times, were saying why should this person expect people to be more honest in the life style than society at large!

Now people can't have it both ways. Either there is a life style ettiquette or there isn't. I think with the amount of bad experiences written about on this site, there obviously isn't.

You might claim that people that don't adhere to your values aren't part of the life style. Those people with other values might say you don't adhere to life style values.

Who decides, the Whitehouse?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/3/2006 6:55:59 AM >

(in reply to METOO)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 7:41:41 AM

METOO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

Because we are not talking about society at large. We are talking a one on one relationship. A "lifestyle" relationship. Lifestyle expects, no demands honesty and the corresponding trust. If I'm giving that honesty and abiding by lifestyle principles, I expect nothing nothing less in return. When and if, I learn that such is not the case, then quite obviously that trust has been broken. A wall develops. In reference to the two people, obviously it no longer really is a lifestyle relationship

Let me repeat - In another thread was someone was complaining about a bad experience, there were a lot of people who in this thread proffess honesty at all times, were saying why should this person expect people to be more honest in the life style than society at large!

Now people can't have it both ways. Either there is a life style ettiquette or there isn't. I think with the amount of bad experiences written about on this site, there obviously isn't.

You might claim that people that don't adhere to your values aren't part of the life style. Those people with other values might say you don't adhere to life style values.

Who decides, the Whitehouse?

The very basic and core premise of lifestyle is complete honesty. Is that not true? If one shows a lack thereof, then they can't be a adherer to the lifestyle. Is that not true?

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 7:54:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

The very basic and core premise of lifestyle is complete honesty. Is that not true? If one shows a lack thereof, then they can't be a adherer to the lifestyle. Is that not true?

i have tried to bite my tongue while watching this go on and on. The truth is, one side will never agree with the other side. You can debate this to your grave.

In my case, my husband cheated me. He was not the husband he vowed to me. He denied me affection of any kind, even verbal. He denied me having children. He denied me the happiness part of our marriage. He denied his own vow to contribute to our lives together, to provide a home where i could be emotionally safe, and to be one who i could rely on for real love. He denied me acceptance. He denied me personal growth. He cheated me out of the husband he promised to be, and that i expected to live with when i accepted his vow. "I will love you and honor you all the days of my life." was also part of our vows. That did not occur. my vow of fidelity came from one sentence: "Take this ring as a sign of my love and fidelity." i was his wife, to uphold my own vows, with the understanding that he would also do his part. He didn't, and because i was emotionally crushed as a result of things that occured in our marriage, it took me years to muster the strength to leave. i did talk to him about my need to submit. i was labeled a freak, sick, ill, and brainwashed. He refused to learn about or accept, let alone support, something that was so important to me.

Along the way i met someone, whom i now call Master. i met the One person who touched my very soul, and who provided me a rock solid foundation upon which i could rebuild and find my own internal strength and happiness. There was no way in hell i would be dishonest to him. No way in hell i would risk what i had been looking for all my life and finally found. If i hadn't met my Master when i did, i would likely have killed myself by now. And that's not an attempt at being dramatic; it is my sincere sentiment. He taught me honesty - to be honest with myself. To say just because i went outside my marriage, i would be dishonest with my Master is, to me, proposterous.

Having found the strength to finally move, i look back and see the distruction of my marriage was not entirely my fault. Going outside my marriage was not the problem, but a symptom to a very big problem. Was it "right?" That is for me and my God to decide. Wast it justified? my answer is the same. my ex-husband understands it now. my family understands it. But strangers on the internet will not. Go figure.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 4/3/2006 7:59:55 AM >

(in reply to METOO)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 8:22:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

The very basic and core premise of lifestyle is complete honesty. Is that not true? If one shows a lack thereof, then they can't be a adherer to the lifestyle. Is that not true?

I can see the value of honesty in a D/s relationship, though here I think we are really talking about fidelity which is something different.

If we are talking about sado-masochistic scening, the only thing required is trusting the person one is scening with.

There are a myriad different types of relationship in between.

While I think honesty is a good thing, it is not for me to make choices or condemn people for choices they make that don't affect me, especially when I can't look inside their head and see their motivations.

(in reply to METOO)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 8:27:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

The truth is, one side will never agree with the other side.

It is interesting to see the characterisics of the folks on each side. My favorite post from the thread was from meatcleaver, the anti-feminist.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_310745/mpage_4/key_/tm.htm#313340

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 8:38:58 AM

METOO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

The very basic and core premise of lifestyle is complete honesty. Is that not true? If one shows a lack thereof, then they can't be a adherer to the lifestyle. Is that not true?

I can see the value of honesty in a D/s relationship, though here I think we are really talking about fidelity which is something different.

If we are talking about sado-masochistic scening, the only thing required is trusting the person one is scening with.

There are a myriad different types of relationship in between.

While I think honesty is a good thing, it is not for me to make choices or condemn people for choices they make that don't affect me, especially when I can't look inside their head and see their motivations.

I was not talking fidelity/infidelity at all. I was talking honesty. I was not talking Sado Masochism either. It has nothing to do with the honesty other then within that particular SM relationship. Again I was talking honesty

In this thread I don't think people are discussing judgemental condemnation of those situations that do not effect them, but rather judgement in reference to that which has, is, or potentianlly could be happening to them as a result of dishonesty

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 9:14:43 AM

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I have only one issue with cheaters. They erase the line of consent. Once that line is erased, it opens Pandoras box. What other lines of consent are ok to erase? Age? Mental impairment? Disregard safewords? How can anyone believe a cheater who is, by definition a liar?

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 9:18:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I have only one issue with cheaters. They erase the line of consent. Once that line is erased, it opens Pandoras box. What other lines of consent are ok to erase? Age? Mental impairment? Disregard safewords? How can anyone believe a cheater who is, by definition a liar?

Celeste

It's a reasonable question, but not a necessary connection.

People can be completely dependable in one area and completely unreliable in another. Crossing one line in no way means that they will cross another. After all, I've cheated in past relationships- and yet didn't go crazy with limits and psycho killings or even caused pain to the people I cheated on except when I inevitably ended the relationships.

I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to be with a cheater- I wouldn't either. But just because a person breaks confidence of a certain type doesn't mean their entire character becomes null and void- though it is reasonable to call it into question.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 9:19:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

[In this thread I don't think people are discussing judgemental condemnation of those situations that do not effect them, but rather judgement in reference to that which has, is, or potentianlly could be happening to them as a result of dishonesty

Life is too short to worry about it. Though...

I had a very mean and nasty trick played on me once. Pretty damn horrible in fact but I would have been happy to put it down to experience and move on if the person in question simply explained her motivation, acknowledged the affect it had on me or just simply apologised. The fact that she refused to do any of these were the cause for my judging her because she was simply compounding the original injury. She had spent the best part of three years telling me how important trust and honesty were and having been found out her refusal to accept she had been dishonest was what pissed me off, not what she had originally done, which in many ways I could understand from her warped point of view.

Oh! And she was one of those people who said lying is not part of the life style. Excuse me while I scoff!

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/3/2006 9:20:23 AM >

(in reply to METOO)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 9:23:58 AM

METOO

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My point exactly and such is happening to me and others as we speak

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 9:32:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to be with a cheater- I wouldn't either. But just because a person breaks confidence of a certain type doesn't mean their entire character becomes null and void- though it is reasonable to call it into question.

The moral person is not prefect! The moral person will make immoral acts from time to time. Lying, Cheating, Stealing... sometimes the actual situation demands it for the person's well-being, others times we just make a mistake. We are human and we will not be prefect. We can only expect to do the very best we can in any give situation.

For me, the immoral person is one that lives with the lack of moral principles. They feel no remorse or regret or need to justisfy fairly ones immoral acts. They hold their immoral actions to no standard of morailty or consequences on others.

Two wrongs do not make a right.... but sometimes that is the only way to come out the other end healthy.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 9:40:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: METOO

My point exactly and such is happening to me and others as we speak

I'd be lying to say I wasn't pissed off but it wasn't what she originally done that blew my fuse. If she had explained herself or apologised I would have walked away and taken some good times with me, life is too short to keep looking back. I wasn't beyond understanding her motivation.

She was just incapable of accepting what she had done that did it for me, she was what she had so often condemned others to be which in many ways is really quite funny. I still imagine her condemning people for doing the exact same things she did only what she did was worse than most because what she did was not just selfish it was out and out malicious.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/3/2006 9:41:41 AM >

(in reply to METOO)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 9:51:20 AM

ExistentialSteel

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KOM, I agree with your post and that has always been my overriding philosophy. No one is perfect, but give me someone who tries to do what he/she thinks is right and I'll take them everytime.

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(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 10:21:20 AM

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This is just a general post not directed at any particular comment.

But like some have alluded to. I think the general idea is yes, it's true we've all lied, many have cheated, etc... However, a single mistake is one thing, or a short term lapse. And most people recognize their behaviour was wrong at some point. However, doesn't a long-term rationalized decision to make a life out of lying make the person in question something else. It's not the fact that someone cheated that is the primary concern, rather it is the rationalization that lying is okay as permanent means of existance for getting what they want. I'd personally be able to trust someone who has cheated in the past but recognized it was a mistake. I'd have very little chance of trusting someone who doesn't recognize cheating as a lapse of judgement but rather necessary to get what they want on a permanent basis. Because at that point it stops being a lapse of judgement and becomes who they are.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/3/2006 10:22:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I completely understand why someone wouldn't want to be with a cheater- I wouldn't either. But just because a person breaks confidence of a certain type doesn't mean their entire character becomes null and void- though it is reasonable to call it into question.

The moral person is not prefect! The moral person will make immoral acts from time to time. Lying, Cheating, Stealing... sometimes the actual situation demands it for the person's well-being, others times we just make a mistake. We are human and we will not be prefect. We can only expect to do the very best we can in any give situation.

For me, the immoral person is one that lives with the lack of moral principles. They feel no remorse or regret or need to justisfy fairly ones immoral acts. They hold their immoral actions to no standard of morailty or consequences on others.

Two wrongs do not make a right.... but sometimes that is the only way to come out the other end healthy.

KoM you & i may actually agree on something here...lol.

Your first paragraph is exactly my point. We are all human, we all struggle, we all do the best we can (or hopefully we strive to) to get by. We all make mistakes.

So why then is there thread after thread of condemnation toward those people who are, quite possibly, making a mistake while trying to "get by" in their obviously difficult situations? That is the part that baffles me.

i will add, however, i find there is a difference between the struggling or conflicted human, and those who flippantly, casually, and without regard, turn a blind eye to any sense of morals, and do whatever they please at the expense of anyone. i will also add that sometimes from an outsider's perspective, someone may appear to be doing this, but only because they are so ept at hiding the demons inside which are eating them up alive.

i prefer to err on the side of compassion for someone who is struggling, than to stand from my own pulpit and declare their damnation. Perhaps my glasses are a bit too rose-tinted. Perhaps my own personal wounds are still too fresh. i, like anyone else, am simply doing the best i can.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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