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RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 4:15:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If the majority of people are unfaithful which research appears to show as true, maybe that says something about human nature and maybe the sensible thing is for people to accept human nature rather than shoe horning it into stupid morals that the majority appear to agree with in public but break in private!

provide the research reference to support the claim.... I for one feel such a claim to be rather flimsy at best! My experience has showed me that thou unfaithfulness is a significant account of failed relationships, it by far not the majority that you seem to suggest.

Infidelity can be as much a symptom of a failing relationship as much as a cause and one could debate for ever the reasons for failed relationships, as the reasons in my experience are many fold and not one so to a point I wouldn't argue with you.

But I'll try and find the psychology research that I had in my mind which actually showed women in certain circumstances were more likely than men to stray. That various strategies and motives were used by people depending on an individuals situation but there was a general pattern in the population and moral values are ignored or rationalised away.

I ain't going to be quick because I can't remember the title of the report.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/2/2006 4:17:31 PM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 4:16:31 PM

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Greetings :)
This post is in no way directed at anyone.
I, too, read through all the replies here with a sense of humor on my part. So much anger revealed. My opinions on the concept of lying and cheating are my own, and they will remain so. I would like to share something though. The general consensus seems to be that if your partner does not know of your 'other' relationships, then it is just that; lying and cheating. Please correct me if I am wrong. But, what would it be when your partner states quite clearly that he/she does NOT want to know of your indiscretions? They are not actually giving the go ahead for you to have other relationships, they are just stating that they do not want to know of them. Is that still lying and cheating?

(in reply to CERCKL)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 4:26:23 PM

METOO

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I have to agree with the above poster on the cynical laugter. Anyone whom is in either in a clandestine realtionship or ,as posted, semi clandestine relationship and in turn professes to being a follower of the lifestyle is either a total hypocrite or just plain out and out dishonest.

The very basic premise of the "lifestyle" is total honesty and therefore trustworthiness. As one enters into a relationship within this so called lifestyle that does not change. Whether BDSM is a part of that relationship is of no bearing. But that relationship only means that both individuals are totally honest and trustworthy not only within the relationship but outside of it as well. Trying to say that one is being a follower of the lifestyle yet is either being dishonest or partialy honest/dishonest with either the two parties is not only total hypocrisy, but also total BS.

(in reply to CERCKL)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 4:27:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Angeni

Please correct me if I am wrong. But, what would it be when your partner states quite clearly that he/she does NOT want to know of your indiscretions? They are not actually giving the go ahead for you to have other relationships, they are just stating that they do not want to know of them. Is that still lying and cheating?

Every "OPEN" relationship will have it's own thoughts and ideas on how to deal with it. Some may like to hear the details of what occurs and others rather not and everything in between and around it. But, at the end of the day it's a question of "Consent" to have the open relationship in the first place! If do not have consent! Then you are lying and cheating... it's doesn't matter that your partner doesn't want to know about it or does want to know about it... the question is... Did they consent to it?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Angeni)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 4:31:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Every "OPEN" relationship will have it's own thoughts and ideas on how to deal with it. Some may like to hear the details of what occurs and others rather not and everything in between and around it. But, at the end of the day it's a question of "Consent" to have the open relationship in the first place! If do not have consent! Then you are lying and cheating... it's doesn't matter that your partner doesn't want to know about it or does want to know about it... the question is... Did they consent to it?

Got to go along with KoM on this... it's all boiling down to Consent...

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

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RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 4:33:26 PM

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A quick google of 'infidelity + research' brings up countless research papers and just a quick scan through several brings up the figure of something like 50-70% of people cheat on their partners.

Some appear to be tabloid and some are in depth research but all appear to show that the majority of people cheat on their partners.

When I have a moment I'll look through my psychology magazines and try and find the research that I was thinking of.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 4:44:20 PM

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Greetings
KnightOfMists, thank you for your reply. While I do agree with you, my mind is wrapping around something that I have now found quite curious. The issue of consent within a relationship. Let me try and phrase this correctly. A married couple with a relationship that is monagamous for many years. An open marriage or poly arrangement is never discussed at any time. Through the years, something happens within the relationship, and it changes. ( let's say that wants and needs change over time ) Though both know that the relationship has hit a dead end, neither are willing to end it. The husband decides to go outside the relationship to meet his own wants and needs. This is never discussed with his wife at any time. Yet, she knows that he is going outside the marriage, and he knows that she knows. How would this be looked upon?
( I would like to stress that this is nothing more than a scenario to stress the question that I asked, and that using the husband as an example is in no means meant to be offensive. I know that either party are just as able to act in such manners ) Since consent was never actually 'given', and never actually discussed, would this still be seen as cheating and lying? Or would the wife's silence be taken as consent?

I am just curious as to how others would view such a situation. My own opinion on this is that even though it was never discussed, and verbal consent was never actually given, I can not view this as a husband who is lying and cheating. So my curiosity has gotten the better of me here :)

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RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 4:50:38 PM

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quote:

So my curiosity has gotten the better of me here :)

"Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought it back."
I am not certain how others will feel, in My own experience, My wife felt I was cheating on her and though I wasn't and tried everything to convince her of that, she didn't believe Me and stated she didn't want to know about it...I have known others where it had been recognized and ignored; again, it all rests on the situational experience...
C

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AND I AM TOO AN ASSHOLE, I HAVE REFERENCES!!!

"Please, please, please believe me, I really am an asshole. All that Enlightenment and Higher Learning shit was all a ruse."

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RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 5:11:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Angeni

I am just curious as to how others would view such a situation. My own opinion on this is that even though it was never discussed, and verbal consent was never actually given, I can not view this as a husband who is lying and cheating. So my curiosity has gotten the better of me here :)

How consent is given and obtain is indeed important. But, equally important is understanding that such consent given and obtained is done so with the clear understanding of both parties. Your example states that both know, but yet never talked about it. So my question is... how can he ever be clear that she does know and that he actually has consent. Because I go out and come back with lipstick on my cheek and smell like perfume doesn't communicate a lot. It surely doesn't communicate that I have been unfaithful. However, it might just be a thought in the wife's mine. But, since I am not a mind reader, I can't see how anyone can possible have given and/or obtain consent without having "EFFECTIVE" communication.

Therefore, since no effective communication has actually occurred. We are only dealing with assumptions that they know and they have consented because they haven't done anything about it. The assumption could very well be wrong or right... but it's still an assumption! Proper Consent is Clear and Effectively communicated when you are discussing the aspect of Open Relationships.

Until it's more than just an assumption... He is Lying and he is Cheating

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Angeni)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 5:13:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: sskitten

To illustrate the difference... let's take the topic of pain sluts as an example. There are plenty of people who write in threads, "I am not a pain slut." I have never seen someone write, "You are wrong to enjoy pain" or "You are wrong to deliver pain even in the interests of someone else's possible pleasure." Everyone who is not a pain slut or pain deliverer just tends to let those who feel comfortable with pain do their thing without interference, without trying to change their minds about how they choose to lead their lives. That is because no one else is being hurt in the process. Frankly, something inside of me cringes and recoils at the thought of this sort of relationship, but we trust that the parties involved can take care of themselves. If I had a good friend who was a pain slut, I would probably express my concerns about his or her emotional and physical well-being, but even if I felt a bit judgmental inside, I would respect my friend enough not to *express* judgment. And when I read statements by pain sluts on the boards, of course I say nothing because their lives are none of my business. I just try to absorb and learn what I can from the sharing.

So you are comparing the judgments that are made of an act where all involved gave consent to an act that by its very nature denys relevant parties the right to consent or not. How is that even a valid comparison of judgmental attitudes?

Knight's kyra

No... I was not comparing the judgments. You were saying that all threads are judgmental and I used a random example to point out that there is a big difference in the judgments made on infidelity threads compared to other threads. I was not saying that pain sluts merit the same degree of judgment or acceptance as cheaters. I was merely remarking that it is impossible to have a nonjudgmental thread here that involves the topic of cheating. I wish it were possible even though I understand why it apparently is not possible.

Yes, some of this discussion does go on in private messages. And I think I will change my profile to state very bluntly that I am a cheater and that my cheating torments me and I would welcome the opportunity to discuss inner conflicts with anyone in a nonjudgmental fashion. I still wish it could be possible to have such a discussion on the boards. I am not pushing the point. I am yielding the point.. but I'm not happy about it.

Before I disappear quietly beyond the horizon, I'd like to say a few words about trust. I can well believe that many cheaters cannot be trusted by those in the lifestyle. But some can. Just for the record I will say that for some reason I cannot fathom, while I find it difficult or impossible to honor my husband's trust, I would never ever violate my Dom's trust... and I have 100% confidence in the trust I've placed in him. Actually, I do understand why I can be 100% trustworthy in the lifestyle and not in my marriage. But it seems there is not tolerance on the boards for a discussion of that sort. I think it would be interesting if we could discuss why some of us can be honorable in one setting and not another... that is the sort of discussion that unfortunately cannot occur in this climate.

You are speaking up to defend and protect those who are the unknowing victims of cheaters: fine. I hear you. They do not. Since this is a community for those in the BDSM lifestyle who would like to share with others, and since many of us here, unfortunately, are cheaters, I still think it is legitimate to wish for a tiny little place where related issues could be discussed instead of having every "married" thread suffocate under the weight of indignant pronouncements. I understand and respect the very reasonable position that marriages should be built on openness and trust. I completely agree. But I also find I cannot live this way. And that conflict inside myself is something I wish I could discuss (not defend, but discuss) without being jumped on.

Kitten

(in reply to kyraofMists)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 5:21:44 PM

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Wow! This is a HOT topic! To the original post; you're young, you've been lied to. Consider the source, take it as a learning experience and start over. Allow yourself to grow from it. Take your time. The absolute worst thing anyone can do is rush the process. I know because I did just that myself when I was young.

What I got, by rushing the process (and what I mean by that is believing you MUST have a relationship NOW! You don't.) is a husband who really didn't care for me at all. Without getting into the details, I wound up being the one involved in the affair. Was it honest? No. Was it morally right? Of course not. Would I do it again? Absolutely not. Why? Because as much as it helped repair what my marriage had broken in me, it also was dishonest, it was not right. One day, despite my trying to hang in for the sake of the children, etc., I found that I simply could not continue a relationship that itself, was a lie. I didn't want to hurt my children, but I also did not want them to grow up believing that what they saw in their parents' marriage was the way a marriage is supposed to be. They know and understand the reasons why I left their father and now, unfortunately, some things have happened to them that illustrate more clearly than anything, why the relationship had to end.

Funny how things come back on you. I've had two relationships since, both of which ended because I discovered my partner had other partners. Ouch!

I've also had a poly relationship where all parties knew about each other, etc. While I learned a lot and I grew in ways I never expected, one of the biggest things I learned is that poly isn't for me. It makes me feel badly about myself, revisits past things for me.

It's this knowledge that I use when creating my filter, if you will, for the people that I will meet. I have learned by my own mistakes, by my own experiences, what is right for me. I have learned that honesty is the best policy, that The Golden Rule always applies. I may not have always followed it in the past, but that doesn't mean that I haven't learned from those mistakes and re-directed my personal behavior accordingly.

A word about what people are searching for...it's different for everyone. What's right for you is not necessarily what's right for another. So, for those that are tops or bottoms, recognize what you are and approach it as such. For those that are dominants and submissives, same goes. Recognize that "your" lifestyle isn't always the same as someone else's "lifestyle" and that's ok. Most important though, don't confuse a bottom or top for a dominant or submissive. They ARE different and the label does matter.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 5:27:23 PM

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The thing that upsets me about this is that we connected so well, he led me to believe we had a meeting of the minds on all issues. In responce to someone on the second page of this thread I have scened and met around 100 subs so far, and yes I am only 22. It seemed that all the ducks were in a row on this, and as I can't outline every conversation we had, there were circumstances that made me over look the "red flags" I can now look back on and see with clarity. Our relationship goals included marrage at some point, and a depth of emotion that his having a wife would not allow. On top of that, I am a jealous person. I want my slave all to myself, knowing he is cheating no matter how unhappy he is with her, makes me wonder if he would be able to be faithful to me. Once a cheater always a cheater? If he can discount his wifes feelings over a sexual urge enough to search elsewhere, how can I trust what I offer would be enough? I am one of those Dommes that gets emotionaly attached to my subs/slaves, I want a slave that will love me, and I can trust and love him. I see his actions as a violation of his marrage (she did not know) and of my trust and emotions. Yet, I also see where he is coming from, as a person he has had situations in his life that make him feel unwanted, and not worthy of being happy. I would have been willing to be his safe place, if he had not lied, even knowing he was married and did'nt have consent from his wife. I agree with someone that stated, if you are unhappy in your marrage you should not stay in it. Obviously the marrage is not serving the purpose it was entered into for. However, he needs to be a man and tell her, and move on. As for my profile, I agree it could be changed and attract better potential slaves. At the time I wrote it I was not seriously looking, so a change might be good. Thanks to all that have replyed, everyones views have made for interesting reading ~s~. I personaly have trust issues, so he has burned his bridges with me. If you lie to me it's over. Hard as it is, since we had spent alot of time together, and made some in depth plans. I will keep going, much like the thread on hang up your whips, I find it's a large part of who I am and that can not be denyed, although I will be taking a break lol.

(in reply to CERCKL)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 5:32:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sskitten
No... I was not comparing the judgments. You were saying that all threads are judgmental and I used a random example to point out that there is a big difference in the judgments made on infidelity threads compared to other threads.

How is that "not comparing the judgments"? If you use two examples and point out the differences in the them, then you are comparing them.

quote:

I was merely remarking that it is impossible to have a nonjudgmental thread here that involves the topic of cheating. I wish it were possible even though I understand why it apparently is not possible.

Again I say, because it is next to impossible to have a thread about anything and not have judgments made. People will make judgments about any and everything, why should infedility be any different?

quote:

I still think it is legitimate to wish for a tiny little place where related issues could be discussed instead of having every "married" thread suffocate under the weight of indignant pronouncements. I understand and respect the very reasonable position that marriages should be built on openness and trust. I completely agree. But I also find I cannot live this way. And that conflict inside myself is something I wish I could discuss (not defend, but discuss) without being jumped on.

Then may I suggest that you create or search out a message board that is dedicated to those who betray their partners if you feel the need to discuss these issues without hearing the opinions of those who find this type of behavior unacceptable.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to sskitten)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 5:36:46 PM

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Greetings
KnightOfMists, thank you for your insights. Throughout the reading of this thread over the past several days, I have found myself wondering more and more about the concept of consent and how others viewed it. My relationships have always been poly, with communication being the one thread that held everyone and everything together, and yet, I thought back over the time and realized that actual verbal consent was never really something that was discussed between us. Possibly because it was clear at the beginning that the relationship would be poly. Maybe that is why I can not seem to understand why verbal consent would make a difference. You have given me something to ponder on though. Thank you kindly :)

Greetings Feastie :) If I may be allowed to ask a simple question? You commented that labels do matter for a person. May I ask why you feel that way?

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 5:42:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

yes there is a lot of lively debate and disagreements. But, there is indeed a distinct different tone to threads were individuals show themselves to "Knowingly" take action that "WILL" cause pain and distress to those they supposedly committed too!

The question is... are these situations acceptable... for many the answer is No.

[/font]

Marital problems, vows, agreements, acts, and extra marital activities are not so easily cubbyholed. Those doing the pigeonholing, like Goddessbela, have like zero RT experience in LT marriage or monogamy.

I don't think its up for outsiders to judge circumstances they cannot appreciate, AKA what another married person does or should do. We don't live in some ideal world or black and white space.

Everyone individually has to decide what's the right way to balance their own marriage and individual needs. The circumstances in these cases do not call for blanket rules.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 4/2/2006 5:44:49 PM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 5:50:10 PM

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This shit has been hashed out before, actually:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_178477/mpage_1/key_ask%2Ctell/tm.htm

(in reply to Angeni)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 5:59:18 PM

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Excuse, KoM, but is it not TRUE that your wife said to you, upon getting married, "I will share you." Seems to me "consent" for you was never a difficult issue. Might I suggest that your job on this thread is to understand the circumstances of other people in completely different situations than your own.

In your own case, you didn't face any serious risks about going poly. Other married people do face serious risks, and they face a whole situation that neither you or I can fully fathom. I think these people deserve our sympathetic understanding and guidance --- and they do not deserve our JUDGEMENT and CONDEMNATION.

Ideally, yes, one should get "consent," one should be "honest." But, others don't live in our ideal world.

This is not said to give a blanket free pass to infidelity, but to say in looking at others, we need to do it on a case-by-case basis.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 4/2/2006 6:02:03 PM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 6:09:30 PM

METOO

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Question Cloudboy. How does one profess to be a part of lifestyle and yet knows they are being dishonest. In reference to the Lifestyle, I sure as heck do distainfully judge them. It's wrong and it is wrong to both victims to be subjected to it

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 6:11:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Excuse, KoM, but is it not TRUE that your wife said to you, upon getting married, "I will share you." Seems to me "consent" for you was never a difficult issue. Might I suggest that your job on this thread is to understand the circumstances of other people in completely different situations than your own.

In your own case, you didn't face any serious risks about going poly. Other married people do face serious risks, and they face a whole situation that neither you or I can fully fathom. I think these people deserve our sympathetic understanding and guidance --- and they do not deserve our JUDGEMENT and CONDEMNATION.

Ideally, yes, one should get "consent," one should be "honest." But, others don't live in our ideal world.

This is not said to give a blanket free pass to infidelity, but to say in looking at others, we need to do it on a case-by-case basis.

yes that is correct.. she said those very words... However, those are just "Words" the action of doing is far harder than just stating those simple words... So don't be to presumptous to make assumptions on the risk I may or may not have. I have never confided to you or anyone here on the struggles and issues we as a relationship had. Be it my relationship with alandra or kyra.

Therefore when you actually Know enough about me to state what I can or can't understand. I would suggest you ask first! Instead of making stupid suggestions

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 4/2/2006 6:13:20 PM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Forgot you have a wife?? - 4/2/2006 6:43:35 PM

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quote:

Therefore when you actually Know enough about me to state what I can or can't understand. I would suggest you ask first! Instead of making stupid suggestions

These exact words can be used toward anyone making any judgment on anyone else.

Until you've walked a mile in another man's shoes....

sskitten, feel free to email me privately. i have been through what you are going through. It was my own private hell. Those around me, although they may not have supported what i was doing, showed me love and helped me find value in myself such that i could make a decision i needed making. In my particular situation, had i come across a lynch mob, i may never have found my way out of the hole i had dug myself in.

(in reply to KnightofMists)

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