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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 7:52:20 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

FR to no one in particular:

I have long wondered whether critical and analytical thinking can truly be taught or is it innate? I'm not talking about teaching the scientific method or ethics, etc. It just seems to me that most people who reject religion either as children or later as adults are predisposed to a certain way of thinking from a very young age. I don't want to paint this idea with a very broad brush, but I wonder what others think about it.



Researchers have conducted a meta-analysis on critical thinking research and concluded instruction that stresses student discussion and places emphasis on problem-solving procedures and methods may enhance critical thinking".

- LA



I believe it is innate...you are what you are. You are a rigid cock sucker or you are a lovely human being that allows for the possibility of alternative views.

I am a lovely human being.


Domi, you can believe what you want. Between you and a meta analysis on the question (not to mention everything else I read while I did my Master's Degree in Education), I think I'll go for the research.

I will say that some people are naturally more predisposed to being able to think critically and make logical deductions.

- LA


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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 7:57:31 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

"Who should you always trust first? God or the scientist?"



I am going to try to respond differently ... with a more serious reply ... not that it will make any more sense ... then the video ... or the banter!

In my mind ... the video is entirely wrong. And this person is portrayed as sending what I believe to be the wrong message to children. Actually ... they should be taught "critical thinking skills".

Not because i am an atheist ... quite the opposite ... i personally will go a step beyond saying I believe in God ... I know there is a God.

But discussing that subject is best left for another time and place.

Yet because I feel the way I feel ... I believe that learning "critical thinking skills" is helpful in learning there is a person ... the one we refer to as God.

And if viewed from this perspective ... "the person we refer to as God" ... then we see the words imply thinking and growing.

Moreover ... and this is a twist I might not choose to defend here ...

It is mankind that claims the bible is perfect truth ... not God.

How do we know the bible contains only lessons in how to live Your life ... mixed with some illusions and stories that were understandable to the people of the time? (before science, light bulbs, cell phones, etc.)

Like .... dare I say ... parables .... ????????

How do we know evolution is INCOMPATABLE ... with the words God created the human race?

And what does it mean to say created? The physical being ... or that something that differentiates people from lower animals? We don't really know.

Because actually ... the two points are not necessarily opposed ... except in the minds of people.

And therefore i am arguing ... it is man who is saying this .... not God. And the man who is arguing it ... is not infallible ... NO HUMAN IS ... not even the Pope.

Thus I believe children should be taught "critical thinking skills" ... because they then may have the SKILLS to understand God ... and understanding God might be more important ... then reciting passages from memory.

Told ya this might not make a lot of sense ... it needs a book ... to more properly describe.



This makes sense, that is, if you subtract all the references to God, especially the one about 'knowing' he/she/it exists.

Still, fascinating as always.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 7:58:41 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika



Domi, you can believe what you want. Between you and a meta analysis on the question (not to mention everything else I read while I did my Master's Degree in Education), I think I'll go for the research.

I will say that some people are naturally more predisposed to being able to think critically and make logical deductions.

- LA



Let me prattle on. I believe that it is innate. But some behavior can be changed. Rarely. You see it out here on a rather routine basis. The birthers. the people that have no problem rushing into war. Teabaggers. The religious right. The conservatives.

Every now and again someone will do an about face. Rarely. How often after knowing all of the facts and then making a sound decision do you then change your mind? Rarely?

I learn by watching people you learn from your studies.

I have a sound basis for reaching my decisions that is based upon personal experience....I am a critical thinker.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 5/1/2010 8:00:39 PM >


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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 7:59:18 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

I will say that some people are naturally more predisposed to being able to think critically and make logical deductions.


Hiya LA,

I like to think people like this are more likely to derive their conclusions from places absent ego's but that's not always the case either. I know better.


_____________________________

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:00:08 PM   
belladevine


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It is my belief that everyone should reject religion.

Religion stagnates the mind and body it also deteriorates the family structure and dummies down the species.

Parents spend hours driving their children to church and sitting in dank buildings burning incense and saying repetitive chants and prayers.

I think people saying their prayers look like tthe chinese babies i used to see on "save the children comercial" strapped to potty chairs rocking back and forth.

I think parent time with children would be better spent riding bicycles then sitting in a dank dark church with alters and depictions of death everywhere.

Most religions try to seperate men and women too..religion definetly does not endorse equality.

Religion teaches men and women to treat each other as foreign intruders and enemies too. Come on! Go to jail or be beheaded for kissing! Yea that's locical.





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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:01:43 PM   
domiguy


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You didn't even mention a single thing about penis mutilation....I am very proud of you.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:02:44 PM   
brainiacsub


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

[...]
I believe it is innate...you are what you are. You are a rigid cock sucker or you are a lovely human being that allows for the possibility of alternative views.

I am a lovely human being.

And I thought you were just a lovely cock sucker. Guess I need to brush up on my analytical skills.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:03:04 PM   
Fellow


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I see the problem, but where is the solution? People teach honestly their children what they believe. It has always been this way. Everybody has limits. Privileged kids get better start.  How can you change it? When  they will grow up they will learn something different at school. 

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:04:09 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

I see the problem, but where is the solution? People teach honestly their children what they believe. It has always been this way. Everybody has limits. Privileged kids get better start.  How can you change it? When  they will grow up they will learn something different at school. 


A little help?

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:06:26 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

Guess I need to brush up on my analytical skills.


I can offer you some training, little girl...


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:11:53 PM   
Silence8


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LadyA,

You might want to check out Freud's treatment of religion in 'The Future of an Illusion'. Not surprisingly, he connects it to the patterns of neurosis.

My view is that to say religious people neglect logical operations commits an essential mistake, that is, not recognizing that psychological truth precedes (and, in a way, consumes) logical truth. I like to think of the ego as that space (or playground, if you will) in which pure logical operations are allowed to roam free.

The same goes for Fox news, and a million other things. It's naive to think that these people engaging in these media simply do not possess the proper facts; there's something deeply psychological at work here.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:14:01 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika



Domi, you can believe what you want. Between you and a meta analysis on the question (not to mention everything else I read while I did my Master's Degree in Education), I think I'll go for the research.

I will say that some people are naturally more predisposed to being able to think critically and make logical deductions.

- LA



Let me prattle on. I believe that it is innate. But some behavior can be changed. Rarely. You see it out here on a rather routine basis. The birthers. the people that have no problem rushing into war. Teabaggers. The religious right. The conservatives.

Every now and again someone will do an about face. Rarely. How often after knowing all of the facts and then making a sound decision do you then change your mind? Rarely?

I learn by watching people you learn from your studies.

I have a sound basis for reaching my decisions that is based upon personal experience....I am a critical thinker.


Well actually Domi, you are watching adults. When I talk about critical thinking that can be taught, I'm talking about during the formative years. That is why in my response to Des, I wrote that while I found it commendable that they were teaching critical thinking in her daughter's highschool, it was probably too late. In fact, a fellow researcher's findings when observing college students concluded that it was too late to teach them then.

A number of researchers have proposed that our human cognitive architecture may contain up to five different memory systems: procedural, perceptual representational, primary (working memory), semantic (generic-knowledge), and episodic (autobiographical).

In addition, it is thought that memories are either "inceptive" -- representations of the world stored in the way they were encoded at their inception (the time at which they were first experienced) or "derived" -- higher level representation that was derived from inceptive memory stores but was computationally transformed to supply information in a form that minimizes the need for further processing by the decision rules that use it.

Thus, to reach Piaget's Formal period, one would more than likely need all memory systems fully functional, in addition to being able to transform inceptive memories into derived memories. According to Piaget, one of the requirements for proof of higher level conceptional thinking was the ability to withstand challenges (probing) designed to confuse those who do not have a firm grasp of the new concept. Thus, this type of thinking is often approached in stages: 1) be able to verbalize the concept, 2) indicate understanding when probed by others, and 3) readily accept counter-arguments by not readily backing down and/or reverting to lower-level concepts.

A couple of techniques that seem to help conceptional/abstract thinking is requiring collaboration when there is disagreement and playing devil's advocate (pretend that one's belief is opposite to their real one).

Part of the problem about this level of thinking is when exactly are children ready (called "readiness")? Piaget theorized that it was about at the age of twelve, others have theorized it is much earlier. One thing appears to be certain -- readiness needs to be "forced." I know "force" appears to be a heavy-handed term, yet it is perhaps the best one. Why? Well, one thing is for certain -- very few individuals reach the formative stage, thus sitting around and waiting for them reach it on their own is doing absolutely no good at all.


I bolded the last paragraph for emphasis. (Source: http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/creativity/criticalthinking.html)

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:15:24 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

I will say that some people are naturally more predisposed to being able to think critically and make logical deductions.


Hiya LA,

I like to think people like this are more likely to derive their conclusions from places absent ego's but that's not always the case either. I know better.



You shouldn't have such high expectations ;-)

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:16:08 PM   
Silence8


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Also, I'm not so thrilled about scientists and other 'specialists' who by and large resemble the intellectual equivalent of assembly-line workers.

Science cannot subtract out the influences of capital market society any more than art, education, or otherwise.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:18:50 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

You shouldn't have such high expectations ;-)


They aren't as high as they once were :)


You have mail.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 5/1/2010 8:30:07 PM >


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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:21:32 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

FR to no one in particular:

I have long wondered whether critical and analytical thinking can truly be taught or is it innate? I'm not talking about teaching the scientific method or ethics, etc. It just seems to me that most people who reject religion either as children or later as adults are predisposed to a certain way of thinking from a very young age. I don't want to paint this idea with a very broad brush, but I wonder what others think about it.


Is it your belief that one must reject religion if they are critical thinkers?

I think ultimately, yes. But that doesn't mean that every adult who is currently religious isn't a critical thinker, it's just that rejecting religion for those who have already been indoctrinated is as much about education as it is about how one thinks. I didn't become an atheist until my early 30's, but the seeds were always there from my very earliest memories. I thought differently than any of my peers or siblings, so looking back, I feel it was only natural that eventually I would reject religion. In speaking with many other atheists over the years, they all describe the same thing...the same thought patterns. I have been curious about this, that's all.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:23:11 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

LadyA,

You might want to check out Freud's treatment of religion in 'The Future of an Illusion'. Not surprisingly, he connects it to the patterns of neurosis.

My view is that to say religious people neglect logical operations commits an essential mistake, that is, not recognizing that psychological truth precedes (and, in a way, consumes) logical truth. I like to think of the ego as that space (or playground, if you will) in which pure logical operations are allowed to roam free.

The same goes for Fox news, and a million other things. It's naive to think that these people engaging in these media simply do not possess the proper facts; there's something deeply psychological at work here.

Silence8, I always hesitate to read Freud as I'm not that much of a masochist ;-)

To be honest, if the Greek philosophers managed to have logical truth supersede psychological truth thousands of years ago, why hasn't our society managed to move forward a little more in this realm? This actually baffles me. You might be right that there is something deeper at work here. I think it's fear.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:25:44 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Also, I'm not so thrilled about scientists and other 'specialists' who by and large resemble the intellectual equivalent of assembly-line workers.

Science cannot subtract out the influences of capital market society any more than art, education, or otherwise.


Actually I'm not in the pure sciences but rather in social sciences. In my realm, much of the contemporary research does.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:30:39 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

FR to no one in particular:

I have long wondered whether critical and analytical thinking can truly be taught or is it innate? I'm not talking about teaching the scientific method or ethics, etc. It just seems to me that most people who reject religion either as children or later as adults are predisposed to a certain way of thinking from a very young age. I don't want to paint this idea with a very broad brush, but I wonder what others think about it.


Is it your belief that one must reject religion if they are critical thinkers?

I think ultimately, yes. But that doesn't mean that every adult who is currently religious isn't a critical thinker, it's just that rejecting religion for those who have already been indoctrinated is as much about education as it is about how one thinks. I didn't become an atheist until my early 30's, but the seeds were always there from my very earliest memories. I thought differently than any of my peers or siblings, so looking back, I feel it was only natural that eventually I would reject religion. In speaking with many other atheists over the years, they all describe the same thing...the same thought patterns. I have been curious about this, that's all.


Here is what I think. Believing in God is the norm. Coming to the conclusion that there is not God requires critical thinking. Accepting the status quo doesn't. But those who accept God might demonstrate critical thinking in other areas of their lives. And by the same token, atheists might not apply critical thinking in all areas of their lives neither.

I cannot prove (and at this time do not wish to prove) that is causality between being an atheist and being a critical thinker. I do however believe that there definitely is a correlation.

- LA


_____________________________

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:32:20 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Also, I'm not so thrilled about scientists and other 'specialists' who by and large resemble the intellectual equivalent of assembly-line workers.

Science cannot subtract out the influences of capital market society any more than art, education, or otherwise.


Actually I'm not in the pure sciences but rather in social sciences. In my realm, much of the contemporary research does.

- LA



Join the club.

Does what? Subtract out the influence of social structures? That's a tough one, considering how few primitive peoples still exist, and the harsh conditions into which these people have been pushed. Social scientists have more relativity dilemmas than they're usually willing to admit.

Not to mention that science has an annoying tendency to produce its own predictions.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 80
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