RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:34:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Damn straight he was home schooled from 6th grade on. Picking him up from school with an O2 sat of 74%, his inhaler "misfiled", and him a nice shade of blue sorta made that decision an easy one.

How exactly did that lead you to the conclusion that you were qualified to be his sole high school teacher?

P.S. Is your kid working on his bachelors at 24?

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 5/1/2010 8:35:42 PM >

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:38:23 PM

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If you get to a kid young enough then maybe there is hope. My research, which is extensive, says otherwise.

However, I have met with adults/siblings that were raised in the same household and where one sibling can think outside of the box the other sibling is completey inept when it comes to this area.

I think by their own admission the "researchers" are a little lost as to exact cause and effect. Peer group might come into play as some form of influence, in that they can influence actions, but it seems unlikely they would influence your total way of receiving and deciphering information.

It has to be that it is innate. But I am open to the possibility that I might be mistaken.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 5/1/2010 8:39:46 PM >

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:39:37 PM

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quote:

But those who accept God might demonstrate critical thinking in other areas of their lives.

We also demonstrate it in the decision to believe in God as well. Just saying...

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:39:47 PM

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I cannot prove (and at this time do not wish to prove) that is causality between being an atheist and being a critical thinker. I do however believe that there definitely is a correlation.

Much more accurately, there could be a correlation.

A critical thinker would consider possible alternate explanations, such as rejecting religion merely to be contrary.
A scientist would observe enough to postulate how such a connection might occur, then test it.

A definite belief in something you cannot prove is a far cry from critical thinking. It's egotistical and irrational--exactly the traits that contribute to the dearth of skills you lament. One recent commentator noted that, in politic debates, people no longer acknowledge even facts. Everything has become a matter of opinion, even when matters of fact, and those matters of opinion are taken as fact, with all incoming evidence sifted for justification.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/1/2010 8:40:40 PM >

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:40:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: auditguy

I believe in these instances the French like to say: Touché or is it toosh. Damn you school system.

Touche' is what one does to a toosh

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:43:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Also, I'm not so thrilled about scientists and other 'specialists' who by and large resemble the intellectual equivalent of assembly-line workers.

Science cannot subtract out the influences of capital market society any more than art, education, or otherwise.

Actually I'm not in the pure sciences but rather in social sciences. In my realm, much of the contemporary research does.

- LA

Join the club.

Does what? Subtract out the influence of social structures? That's a tough one, considering how few primitive peoples still exist, and the harsh conditions into which these people have been pushed. Social scientists have more relativity dilemmas than they're usually willing to admit.

Not to mention that science has an annoying tendency to produce its own predictions.

Actually, I mis-wrote. They don't so much subtract as they try to account for it in their findings. They will identify them as uncontrollable variables.

- LA

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:46:48 PM

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~FR~

Incidentally, for anyone interested, Poe's "The Purloined Letter" is a wonderful analysis (in short story form) of how and why critical thinking fails, in individuals, governments, and society.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:51:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

If you get to a kid young enough then maybe there is hope. My research, which is extensive, says otherwise.

However, I have met with adults/siblings that were raised in the same household and where one sibling can think outside of the box the other sibling is completey inept when it comes to this area.

I think by their own admission the "researchers" are a little lost as to exact cause and effect. Peer group might come into play as some form of influence, in that they can influence actions, but it seems unlikely they would influence your total way of receiving and deciphering information.

It has to be that it is innate. But I am open to the possibility that I might be mistaken.

When it comes to understanding if we were born a blank slate or pre-programmed, there will always be a debate. Perhaps it is the educator in me who will revert to research that says we are malleable. But everyone is born with a different potential (which could account for the difference you discuss).

- LA

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:51:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeraldG

I believe you are severely misjudging the psychology of humans, on an individual as well as on a societal scale, if you think that there can ever be “quality of argument” in a discussion on topics crossing the boundaries between faiths. It is not in the nature of the average man to have any desire to know the actual facts about things that are out of their sphere of consciousness.

[...snipped for brevity...]

Pretty good first post. Actually, I'm well aware of the psychology of humans, which is why I understand that one cannot use logic and reason when debating matters of faith. I think the need for faith when it comes to life and death is deeply embedded in the human psyche. You are right - people just don't want to know. Our desire as humans is to live and persevere. Religion for the individual is a part of that. For society I think it's the law of diminishing returns.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:54:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: auditguy

I believe in these instances the French like to say: Touché or is it toosh. Damn you school system.

Touche' is what one does to a toosh

Thank you, somebody got it. Although, persoanally I've been in somewhat of a touché draught.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:56:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

Incidentally, for anyone interested, Poe's "The Purloined Letter" is a wonderful analysis (in short story form) of how and why critical thinking fails, in individuals, governments, and society.

And then, check out Lacan's analysis of it (it's in the beginning of Ecrits, which has been translated). It's fucking marvelous!

http://www.lacan.com/purloined.htm

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:56:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

Incidentally, for anyone interested, Poe's "The Purloined Letter" is a wonderful analysis (in short story form) of how and why critical thinking fails, in individuals, governments, and society.

As well as logical deduction.

- LA

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 8:59:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

Incidentally, for anyone interested, Poe's "The Purloined Letter" is a wonderful analysis (in short story form) of how and why critical thinking fails, in individuals, governments, and society.

And then, check out Lacan's analysis of it (it's in the beginning of Ecrits, which has been translated). It's fucking marvelous!

http://www.lacan.com/purloined.htm

Throw in a reference to Lévi-Strauss and Althusser and I might fall in love. ;-)

- LA

_____________________________

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 9:04:56 PM

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Religion is a bunch of rethoric and mis information. Basically I see religion as "busy work" to keep people occupied and "productive" until they die.

Religion want people to produce more people and more money for their golden arches.

IF a person wanter to think critically, it would only seem logical that one would try to have ethical personal standards.

Let me think......golden arches vs educated children. hummmmm

Ewe are cash cows! HAHAHA The joke is a yoke on ewe!!!

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 9:05:26 PM

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quote:

then, check out Lacan's analysis

Pretty superficial stuff, mainly plot analysis. The story is rife with psychological discussions and philosophical/literary references. The plot portion of the story is less than half Poe's text. Lacan ignores the rich discussion Dupin unfolds for the bulk of the tale.

It also completely ignores the larger question of thinking at the level of nations.

Right from the beginning of Poe's story, Dupin and the narrator are sitting in the library--in the dark. The irony begins.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 9:07:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

LadyA,

You might want to check out Freud's treatment of religion in 'The Future of an Illusion'. Not surprisingly, he connects it to the patterns of neurosis.

My view is that to say religious people neglect logical operations commits an essential mistake, that is, not recognizing that psychological truth precedes (and, in a way, consumes) logical truth. I like to think of the ego as that space (or playground, if you will) in which pure logical operations are allowed to roam free.

The same goes for Fox news, and a million other things. It's naive to think that these people engaging in these media simply do not possess the proper facts; there's something deeply psychological at work here.

This is what I was eluding to, sort of, in my question. Is there something different about the logical brain that predisposes one to accept or reject certain teachings, and can this type of thinking be taught?

Stated another way...religion is perpetuated through teaching. What if we took 100 human babies and raised them on an island completely isolated from current religious thought. How many would "invent" a religion as a byproduct of the way they think and how many would reject it out of hand for the same reason?

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 9:07:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

There is no way you can possess the ability for critical thinking and then talk about religious beliefs and the impact of God on one's life. The two are not synonymous.

List of Christian thinkers in science

A Ranking of the Most Influential Scientists, Past and Present

New study reveals the percentage of scientists who believe in God is the same as 1916 count
Jet, April 21, 1997

The same percentage of scientists believe in God today as did some 81 years ago, a new study shows.

The new study conducted by noted historian Edward J. Larson of the University of Georgia in Athens asked 1,000 scientists including biologists, physicists and mathematicians, if they believed in God.

Some 40 percent of the scientists said they do believe in God. The number is the same percentage found in the famous 1916 survey conducted by noted psychologist James Leuba.

Leuba thought belief in God would drop among scientists as education improved, but he didn't have any polling evidence to support that claim, said Larson.

Firm

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 9:10:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

[...]
Part of the problem about this level of thinking is when exactly are children ready (called "readiness")? Piaget theorized that it was about at the age of twelve, others have theorized it is much earlier. One thing appears to be certain -- readiness needs to be "forced." I know "force" appears to be a heavy-handed term, yet it is perhaps the best one. Why? Well, one thing is for certain -- very few individuals reach the formative stage, thus sitting around and waiting for them reach it on their own is doing absolutely no good at all.[/blockquote]

I bolded the last paragraph for emphasis. (Source: http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/creativity/criticalthinking.html)

- LA[/font]

I haven't read the link, but is there any suggestion that at least with some kids this doesn't need to be forced, but is in fact innate?

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 9:13:15 PM

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I'm with Firm on this one.

There are different ways of knowing. Not all can be comprehended by logical precepts. It's the point of meditation. Or for that matter, great music or art.

This, after all, is the stuff of atheist religions, such as Buddism or Taoism, and the esoteric parts of Hinduism. It's the connection of the Aborigines and other "primitive" nature beliefs.

It's not as easy as Science vs. Christian belief, nor are the two properly polar opposites.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 9:14:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

then, check out Lacan's analysis

Pretty superficial stuff, mainly plot analysis. The story is rife with psychological discussions and philosophical/literary references. The plot portion of the story is less than half Poe's text. Lacan ignores the rich discussion Dupin unfolds for the bulk of the tale.

It also completely ignores the larger question of thinking at the level of nations.

Right from the beginning of Poe's story, Dupin and the narrator are sitting in the library--in the dark. The irony begins.

A little quick to dismiss, eh? That text takes at least an hour (half an hour) to digest.

Also, it's probably one of the most famous psychological texts of the 20th century, from one of the leading psychoanalysts.

But, to each his own. Fame isn't everything, I realize.

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