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Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Exti... - 5/1/2010 4:39:47 PM

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One of the questions posed in this video is "Who should you always trust first? God or the scientist?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3bdtlNUlx4

Buddy Davis, animator of the Answers in Genesis Children's Workshop, teaches children that dinosaurs never existed because we can't find a reference to them in the Bible. He asks a group of children: "Howz come we can't find the word dinosaur in the bible?" (sic).

The point of sharing this video with you is not to have a debate over creationism vs. evolution. The point is to have a discussion about the total absence of critical thinking skills that are transferred when providing these types of workshops to children.

I'm a defacto atheist which means that I'm not militantly against the idea of God but rather, I just find it unlikely. I have absolutely no problem accepting other people's opinions, but they really need to make arguments that are logically deduced and derive from critical thinking. I have had debates with people of faith who have made some very logical and convincing arguments. The opinions shared in the video I present have no grounding in any deductive logic. The logic that evolution doesn't exist because there are no dinosaurs in the Bible? Really? Come on!

Does anyone else see the harm in teaching children such faulty deduction skills?

Am I biased when I think that I see much more of this on the religious side than the secular side? I'm honestly asking as I might be.

- LA

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 4:42:35 PM

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/Thumbs through Bible and finds that LadyAngelika is not mentioned in it/
/Ignores her/

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 4:47:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

/Thumbs through Bible and finds that LadyAngelika is not mentioned in it/
/Ignores her/

Oh they do too talk about Angels in the Bible! ;-)

- LA

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 4:48:41 PM

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Oh, yeah! That fallen guy!!!!

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"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 4:50:17 PM

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I dont watch posted youtube videos. I have gotten a few nasty viruses that way. No thanks.

As far as your question, i suppose its no different than allowing children to believe in Santa or the tooth fairy. Eventually they are taught differently. My own son had no problem with the transition from the bible to dinasaurs. He asked once why they werent mentioned in the bible. I explained that when dinasaurs roamed, man wasnt around. He asked about genesis, i explained that day and night did not mean then as they do now. Night and day could have taken millions of years. He didnt have issues with this.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 4:58:42 PM

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I have told my son and will continue to tell him that he should never implicitly trust scientists or religious figures. Both are known to lie and/or just plain be wrong on a regular basis. I am proud every time he verifies something that a teacher said that he doesn't think sounds right.
Now if we can just do something about this whole retention of data problem that teenagers seem to have. I think its something they catch from being around the opposite sex.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:00:10 PM

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quote:

Eventually they are taught differently.

You'd think, but there are adults in the video that believe this as well. I can respect that you don't want to watch the video, so let me share a stat in the video with you: Approximately 54 million Americans over the age of 18 do not believe in evolution.. They don't state the source of that statistic, but it isn't surprising to me.

- LA

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:02:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I dont watch posted youtube videos. I have gotten a few nasty viruses that way. No thanks.

As far as your question, i suppose its no different than allowing children to believe in Santa or the tooth fairy. Eventually they are taught differently. My own son had no problem with the transition from the bible to dinasaurs. He asked once why they werent mentioned in the bible. I explained that when dinasaurs roamed, man wasnt around. He asked about genesis, i explained that day and night did not mean then as they do now. Night and day could have taken millions of years. He didnt have issues with this.

In the video they say dinosaurs lived 6000 years ago. Do you believe that? If you don't believe it, don't you have a problem with it being taught as fact? I do.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:04:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I have told my son and will continue to tell him that he should never implicitly trust scientists or religious figures. Both are known to lie and/or just plain be wrong on a regular basis. I am proud every time he verifies something that a teacher said that he doesn't think sounds right.

Fabulous! I'm so hopeful when I hear this.

quote:

Now if we can just do something about this whole retention of data problem that teenagers seem to have. I think its something they catch from being around the opposite sex.

Why are you concerned about retention of data? Data is available at the finger tips. There are some base facts that are important to know but otherwise, it is much more of a useful skill than retaining it. Retaining the knowledge of how to access data rapidly and how to interpret it is much more useful.

- LA

Edited for glaring typo

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/1/2010 5:45:17 PM >

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:07:20 PM

MichiganHeadmast

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I trust God first.

All others pay cash.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:10:07 PM

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I never taught that as a fact. Some people teach that medicine is evil, something else i dont agree with. Some people are taught that healing should only be done through the power of prayer, agains, something i dont believe in. Some are taught that only the white, aryan race should rule... again, not my belief.

As far as the number being 54 million... hmmm... out of 303,800,000... 17%? thats seems a bit high to me.

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:25:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
As far as the number being 54 million... hmmm... out of 303,800,000... 17%? thats seems a bit high to me.

Actually, it isn't that high. In fact, it's kind of low.

I don't have US data, but in 2007, Angus Reid, a reputable Canadian polling company now gone International reported the following conclusions:

[VANCOUVER - June 18, 2007] – Canadians strongly believe humans developed through evolution, but they don’t quite understand what the theory means, a new Angus Reid Strategies poll has found.

In the online survey of a representative national sample, three-in-five Canadians (59%) agree that human beings evolved from less advanced life forms over millions of years. Just 22 per cent believe that God created human beings in their present form within the last 10,000 years—the theory of creationism espoused by the new Big Valley Creation Science Museum in Alberta, the country’s first creationist museum.

However, when asked if humans and dinosaurs co-existed on earth—a central tenet of creationism on display in the Big Valley Museum—42 per cent of respondents agree. Over one-third of Canadians (37%) disagree, in line with fossil records indicating that man developed millions of years after dinosaurs.

Respondents in Quebec are especially disbelieving of creationism. Just 9 per cent agree with the theory behind creationism, while seven-in-ten Quebeckers (71%) agree that the process of evolution is how humans developed. However, the province wound up being as split as the rest of the nation over whether dinosaurs and humans co-existed.

But Albertans were not more likely to believe in creationism than the rest of the country. Their views came very close to the national numbers, with 58 per cent registering belief in evolution as the process driving human development, and 42 per cent agreeing that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time.

As well, younger Canadians, those living in households earning $100,000 or more a year, and those with university education are more likely to strongly believe in evolution, and more likely to disagree that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.

(Source: http://www.angus-reid.com/uppdf/ARS_Evo_Cre.pdf )

Edited to add that I bolded a part because it is in direct relation with what I am suggesting in the OP.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/1/2010 5:28:47 PM >

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:34:29 PM

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I didnt earn 100k a year. Guess im smarter than the rest... lol so is my son!

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:39:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I didnt earn 100k a year. Guess im smarter than the rest... lol so is my son!

Actually, I think you missed the point.

As I mentioned in the OP, the point isn't about who's right or wrong about creationism. The point is about critical thinking skills and logical deduction.

By bolding the section that I did, I was essentially adding to the assumption that those who believe in evolution form more logical arguments and this assumption might be supported by the fact that those who have a university education support evolution.

It isn't about the truth. It is about the quality of the argument.

- LA

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:49:04 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

"Who should you always trust first? God or the scientist?"

I am going to try to respond differently ... with a more serious reply ... not that it will make any more sense ... then the video ... or the banter!

In my mind ... the video is entirely wrong. And this person is portrayed as sending what I believe to be the wrong message to children. Actually ... they should be taught "critical thinking skills".

Not because i am an atheist ... quite the opposite ... i personally will go a step beyond saying I believe in God ... I know there is a God.

But discussing that subject is best left for another time and place.

Yet because I feel the way I feel ... I believe that learning "critical thinking skills" is helpful in learning there is a person ... the one we refer to as God.

And if viewed from this perspective ... "the person we refer to as God" ... then we see the words imply thinking and growing.

Moreover ... and this is a twist I might not choose to defend here ...

It is mankind that claims the bible is perfect truth ... not God.

How do we know the bible contains only lessons in how to live Your life ... mixed with some illusions and stories that were understandable to the people of the time? (before science, light bulbs, cell phones, etc.)

Like .... dare I say ... parables .... ????????

How do we know evolution is INCOMPATABLE ... with the words God created the human race?

And what does it mean to say created? The physical being ... or that something that differentiates people from lower animals? We don't really know.

Because actually ... the two points are not necessarily opposed ... except in the minds of people.

And therefore i am arguing ... it is man who is saying this .... not God. And the man who is arguing it ... is not infallible ... NO HUMAN IS ... not even the Pope.

Thus I believe children should be taught "critical thinking skills" ... because they then may have the SKILLS to understand God ... and understanding God might be more important ... then reciting passages from memory.

Told ya this might not make a lot of sense ... it needs a book ... to more properly describe.

Added ... if I missed the point ... it is becuase I was writing since the post was up ... not reading what was posted and discussed while I wrote.

< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 5/1/2010 5:53:29 PM >

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:53:33 PM

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quote:

Thus I believe children should be taught "critical thinking skills" ... because they then may have the SKILLS to understand God ... and understanding God might be more important ... then reciting passages from memory.

Told ya this might not make a lot of sense ...

It actually makes a lot of sense. You answered my OP directly. You and I might disagree in whether or not there is a God, but we agree that people should come to their conclusions based on critical thinking and logical deductions.

But doesn't it just annoy you to bits that your point of view, that is a theist one, is reduced to this?

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/1/2010 5:54:09 PM >

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 5:57:14 PM

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Personally, I'll go with the scientist.
Scientists use a little something they like to call The Scientific Method. It has to do with testing your hypothosis and examining your data with a critical mindset.
I'm also not familiar with any large group of scientists being accused of molesting young boys.

~Dave

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 6:04:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

Personally, I'll go with the scientist.
Scientists use a little something they like to call The Scientific Method. It has to do with testing your hypothosis and examining your data with a critical mindset.

I'm a researcher at the doctoral level and I've seen a lot of bad research. I'm not going to just believe a scientist because they claim to be a scientist. However, the fact that many of them ensure that they have statistical significance before presenting data and can distinguish between correlation and causality and have had their findings audited and their findings and conclusions peer reviewed does tend to make me take their conclusions a little more seriously. Then, I look at their findings critically and if it is an area I'm not specialised in, I'll look for critical analysis of their findings.

Bottom line, there is a methodology.

quote:

I'm also not familiar with any large group of scientists being accused of molesting young boys.

~Dave

With all due respect to those portrayed in the video, I'm going to guess that they aren't Catholics priests. I've not heard that kind of preaching in Catholicism.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 5/1/2010 6:05:00 PM >

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 6:04:27 PM

seekingOwnertoo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

But doesn't it just annoy you to bits that your point of view, that is a theist one, is reduced to this?

No not really .... it gives me something to do ... ;-)

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 6:06:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

But doesn't it just annoy you to bits that your point of view, that is a theist one, is reduced to this?

No not really .... it gives me something to do ... ;-)

You want to take on this mission? My my... you are indeed a masochist ;-)

- LA

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