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Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 9:35:42 AM

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While we use the terms master and slave, I have real trouble with the myth of slavery on so many levels.

Being a slave in no way meant you had anything but hatred and loathing for your master.
Being a slave in no way meant you were weak, gladiator's were slaves
Being a slave sometimes meant you knew more than you master, were more adept, were "more" in so many ways
Being a slave often meant you wanted to be free but society overrode your will to be free

Being a slave in the bdsm sense is an entirely different kettle of fish but most often smells at least as bad. I think it is a really awful term (although I admit it is hot) to use for what we use it for, which is someone who surrenders more deeply than a submissive.

But even that isn't true, one must step back and see where someone started. There are many here who think doormats are healthy, I am not one of them. Someone who will roll over on their back like some abused and terrified puppy doesn't have much to surrender. Its sort of like an adult bragging about beating a kid in some game, really, you want to brag about that?

Ownership is another interesting concept. Ownership of what exactly? You can own the body of a person pretty easy, owning the mind is another matter and again, what sort of mind are you owning and if you can own it, is it worth owning? I wouldn't want a woman who wanted me to make all the decisions, it would bore the fuck out of me, clearly for others, that is what they want.

I haven't had any coffee so none of this makes sense but considering the state of OPs lately, I figure this will be something of a high water mark.

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 9:42:39 AM

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This is probably the best thread I've encountered here since I joined the site.
I am so glad that I wasn't the one who started it, because if it was the case, I would already be attacked and insulted.
I hope this will provoke some interesting and serious discussion!

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 9:49:55 AM

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Yeah, not a big fan of the term, either.

To each their own and all, but I've no use for a slave. I want someone to submit on their own free will, hence the term "submissive".

(in reply to SocratesNot)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 9:51:11 AM

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Heh, the obvious truth... well... obvious to anyone who actually thought about the topic of slavery for even 3 seconds, is that this is an institution which has been practiced for as long as there have been people across an almost limitless number of cultures. Given how squirrely humans are, it's not all that much of a stretch to think that it must've been expressed in a virtually infinite number of permutations. For instance, even in the deep south -- arguably one of history's MOST oppressive and repugnant forms of slavery -- don't you expect it's gotta be true that some young master fell in love with some pretty slave... love, not lust. Suddenly, what you got going on there wouldn't look terribly different than Carol and I. Love can be an incredibly transformative addition to anything *laughs*.

And yeah, I'm on a campaign about doormats so I will brag about it.

You and I have talked face to face about ownership so I see no need to repeat it here.

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~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 9:52:02 AM

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quote:

Someone who will roll over on their back like some abused and terrified puppy doesn't have much to surrender

There are many ways to roll on one's back, including like a strong and wise lioness. The fact that you only see it in this limited way is your perception, not the full reality.

I get that you need someone who is obviously and aggressively out there, stereotypically strong, bordering on difficult, the untameable filly. You see the value in that and that's what gets you going.

But you really need to stop saying that if it's NOT all that, then it's somehow weak, worthless and not healthy.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to SocratesNot)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 9:56:09 AM

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I dont have time to give a full response, but i had to take time to respond to this one part.

quote:

Ownership is another interesting concept. Ownership of what exactly? You can own the body of a person pretty easy, owning the mind is another matter and again, what sort of mind are you owning and if you can own it, is it worth owning? I wouldn't want a woman who wanted me to make all the decisions, it would bore the fuck out of me, clearly for others, that is what they want.

You seem to have a pretty twisted idea of owning a mind, not to mention the dynamics of an M/s relationship. There are some who wish total ownership... micro-management comes to mind. There are some who desire it only in the bedroom. There are some who want it filtered throughout their daily lives.

I am drawn to men who want total ownership within the home, but not a man who wants me to beg to use the bathroom. Men who want input into things that affect his home. But if he says... go buy something pretty for yourself... he wont wait for me to send him text pictures of what im looking at for his final approval.

Each M/s dynamic is different, fitting the people who are within that relationship. Often, a woman doesnt realize how deeply she is "owned" until she makes that attempt to walk out the door.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 9:58:33 AM

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Not sure when or where I pissed in your wheaties LA but get a life.

How you can read:

quote:

Someone who will roll over on their back like some abused and terrified puppy doesn't have much to surrender

And think that includes

" Someone who will roll over on their back like some strong and wise lioness who has a great deal to surrender"

boggles my fucking mind.

For the record, I tend to like the advice LA gives but she has a hard on for me that makes her a bit blind.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 9:59:39 AM

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Because you said "There are many here who think doormats are healthy, I am not one of them" right before that sentence.

Are you saying now that you DO see some doormats as healthy? That they CAN roll over in a positive and strong way?

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:00:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

While we use the terms master and slave, I have real trouble with the myth of slavery on so many levels.

Totally with you there... but...

quote:

Being a slave in no way meant you had anything but hatred and loathing for your master.
Being a slave in no way meant you were weak, gladiator's were slaves
Being a slave sometimes meant you knew more than you master, were more adept, were "more" in so many ways
Being a slave often meant you wanted to be free but society overrode your will to be free

I can only agree with the last two of these.

The first two I can't support

- It wouldn't be true to say that every slave hated and loathed their master
- Slavery is absolutely a position of weakness, in terms of status and rights. Of course... many slaves were physically stronger but I don't think that's the point?

quote:

Being a slave in the bdsm sense is an entirely different kettle of fish but most often smells at least as bad. I think it is a really awful term (although I admit it is hot) to use for what we use it for, which is someone who surrenders more deeply than a submissive.

But even that isn't true, one must step back and see where someone started. There are many here who think doormats are healthy, I am not one of them. Someone who will roll over on their back like some abused and terrified puppy doesn't have much to surrender. Its sort of like an adult bragging about beating a kid in some game, really, you want to brag about that?

Yup, I feel the same way.

quote:

Ownership is another interesting concept. Ownership of what exactly? You can own the body of a person pretty easy, owning the mind is another matter and again, what sort of mind are you owning and if you can own it, is it worth owning? I wouldn't want a woman who wanted me to make all the decisions, it would bore the fuck out of me, clearly for others, that is what they want.

I haven't had any coffee so none of this makes sense but considering the state of OPs lately, I figure this will be something of a high water mark.

quite.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:00:56 AM

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In the space of a few days I've read some interesting concepts. I'm sincerely glad I know what the heck I'm doing and wasn't dependent on any of this for informational purposes. I think people should just accept that their idea of something is merely that. Sometimes others agree. Sometimes they won't. Neither make it an empirical truth. It is still your opinion.

~porcelaine

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His will; my fate.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:04:56 AM

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i have wished for quite some time that the BDSM community used terms other than "Master" and "slave" to describe the sort of 24/7 TPE relationship that i engage in. The only reason i use those terms is because, well, they're the ones that everyone recognizes and most understand what i'm referring to when i use them.

Real slavery - as what happens non-consensually all the time all around this world of ours, unfortunately - is an entirely different kettle of fish, and the abuse and suffering as a result is abhorrent to me.

i'd love to have a different word to describe what i am. Perhaps we could have suggestions and start a new trend!

_____________________________

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" ~Snoopy (Charles Schultz)

My blog is at http://takinghishand.wordpress.com

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:08:34 AM

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quote:

i have wished for quite some time that the BDSM community used terms other than "Master" and "slave" to describe the sort of 24/7 TPE relationship that i engage in.

Well there's owner/property and the newer predator/prey

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:09:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

In the space of a few days I've read some interesting concepts. I'm sincerely glad I know what the heck I'm doing and wasn't dependent on any of this for informational purposes. I think people should just accept that their idea of something is merely that. Sometimes others agree. Sometimes they won't. Neither make it an empirical truth. It is still your opinion.

~porcelaine

Absolutely agree. I often worry about the newbies who read these kinds of threads. But, like us, they will soon realize the truth of things.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:13:30 AM

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Micheal, you are hurting My head.

(Actually, I thought the thread I started yesterday was pretty nifty. I enjoyed the hell out of it.

)

The thing is, even though we can debate day and night about the legitimacy of slavery (it isn't really legal, therefore no one is really a slave, yadda, yadda, ad nasium) in all sincerity, the term works. It is one that is identified easily, even by your own standard.

It is My opinion that within all this realm of various dynamics, people do submit on different levels. We really are talking about a curve here. At some point, you have to have a descriptive term between someone who willingly submits in areas a, b, and c but will not submit in areas x, y, and z and someone who submits to the whole alphabet. The good thing about the word "slave" is it helps to make that distinction and it's only a whole five letters to type out. It's an already established concept in most people's mind so that we know how to communicate the difference.

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RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:23:39 AM

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I look forward to reading Merc and beth's reply here. Beth refers to herself as "this slave" in every sentence. You are friends with them. How do you think your OP applies to them? I'm not being sarcastic. I am very serious. As well as you know them and as happy and grounded as they seem, I'm just really curious as to how they would answer this and what you feel about their master/slave relationship as applied to your questions. There ARE master/slave relationships that ARE absolutely healthy, fulfilling and REAL for those involved. The term doesn't bother me in the least..........slaveluci

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RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:26:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

I look forward to reading Merc and beth's reply here. Beth refers to herself as "this slave" in every sentence. You are friends with them. How do you think your OP applies to them? I'm not being sarcastic. I am very serious. As well as you know them and as happy and grounded as they seem, I'm just really curious as to how they would answer this and what you feel about their master/slave relationship as applied to your questions. There ARE master/slave relationships that ARE absolutely healthy, fulfilling and REAL for those involved. The term doesn't bother me in the least..........slaveluci

She is a slave as I use the term, however, she isn't a slave in the historical sense. I just laugh at the people who compare the two as if they are in any way related.

(edited to add, those bastards are in Italy right now living it up. Not only that, they used up all the good weather in Los Angeles and left me with rain, I mean this is LA in May for gods sakes.)

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 5/28/2010 10:28:00 AM >

(in reply to slaveluci)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:27:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

i have wished for quite some time that the BDSM community used terms other than "Master" and "slave" to describe the sort of 24/7 TPE relationship that i engage in.

Well there's owner/property and the newer predator/prey

i do use Owner/property as well - quite a bit. But most still see a distinction between Owner/property and Master/slave. There's some interesting threads going on on FetLife about it.

_____________________________

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" ~Snoopy (Charles Schultz)

My blog is at http://takinghishand.wordpress.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:30:20 AM

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True, and I would agree there can be distinctions and that's a good thing. But they are certainly easily contained within the same "bubble" and I thought those distinctions might be what you were seeking for and not finding in the M/s label.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:40:03 AM

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UniqueRaven,

quote:

i do use Owner/property as well - quite a bit. But most still see a distinction between Owner/property and Master/slave. There's some interesting threads going on on FetLife about it.

Do you draw a distinction between the two in your mind?

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:42:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

UniqueRaven,

quote:

i do use Owner/property as well - quite a bit. But most still see a distinction between Owner/property and Master/slave. There's some interesting threads going on on FetLife about it.

Do you draw a distinction between the two in your mind?

~porcelaine

i do actually. i think it's quite possible to Own a woman without Mastering her - a "kept woman" is an easy example that comes to mind, she's owned, used, and provided for, but not Mastered. Just my opinion - there are opinions all over the map about this one.

This is a different thread though.

_____________________________

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" ~Snoopy (Charles Schultz)

My blog is at http://takinghishand.wordpress.com

(in reply to porcelaine)

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