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RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:50:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

I look forward to reading Merc and beth's reply here. Beth refers to herself as "this slave" in every sentence. You are friends with them. How do you think your OP applies to them? I'm not being sarcastic. I am very serious. As well as you know them and as happy and grounded as they seem, I'm just really curious as to how they would answer this and what you feel about their master/slave relationship as applied to your questions. There ARE master/slave relationships that ARE absolutely healthy, fulfilling and REAL for those involved. The term doesn't bother me in the least..........slaveluci

She is a slave as I use the term, however, she isn't a slave in the historical sense.

So, not all slavery (or, "slavery") is bullshit, just those that think they'd fall right in line in ancient Rome, or thereabouts? I agree, and I don't even really care for the "modern" use of the word, but LP makes a reasonable argument for it.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:57:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven
Yes, and this is one of the reasons i've stopped participating on forums pretty much in general - for some reason they all seem to be going for the extremes these days. Maybe it's just me. But whatever happened to just discussing things and sharing ideas? Hmm....

Discussing things and sharing ideas only works for people who are confident in themselves. So in broad brush strokes, you see people who are in established well functioning relationships able to do exactly that. It's easy to be confident and secure when you already have what you want. Some people who are not in such relationships are also pretty confident and secure -- but I'm the first to admit, that's a tougher battle for them.

But when you think about it, if you do not have reality, then all you have is theory. That is why debating theory endlessly is terribly fascinating for so many people here.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 10:58:57 AM

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UniqueRaven,

quote:

i do actually. i think it's quite possible to Own a woman without Mastering her - a "kept woman" is an easy example that comes to mind, she's owned, used, and provided for, but not Mastered. Just my opinion - there are opinions all over the map about this one.

I have never believed the two were identical. But you can have elements of both in a relationship. I have been on the receiving end of each. There were similarities and marked differences. There's an omission of latitude in my mind where property is concerned. But that's just my spin on it. :)

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:03:52 AM

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I would suggest some terms to be used instead of Master and slave:

- Leader / follower
- Ruler / subject
- Guide / follower
- Superior / subordinate
- Boss / subordinate
etc.

< Message edited by SocratesNot -- 5/28/2010 11:08:50 AM >

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to Level)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:03:52 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

While we use the terms master and slave, I have real trouble with the myth of slavery on so many levels.

Being a slave in no way meant you had anything but hatred and loathing for your master.
Being a slave in no way meant you were weak, gladiator's were slaves
Being a slave sometimes meant you knew more than you master, were more adept, were "more" in so many ways
Being a slave often meant you wanted to be free but society overrode your will to be free

Being a slave in the bdsm sense is an entirely different kettle of fish but most often smells at least as bad. I think it is a really awful term (although I admit it is hot) to use for what we use it for, which is someone who surrenders more deeply than a submissive.

Though I don't call these types of relationships "owner/slave" when referring to my own relationships (I prefer either "Keeper/kept" or "Keeper/servant"), rather than looking at human history for definitions for master/slave, I've instead wandered into the cyber-world, using the definitions used in computer programming and technology:

Master/slave is a model of communication where one device or process has unidirectional control over one or more other devices. In some systems a master is elected from a group of eligible devices, with the other devices acting in the role of slaves.

That really pretty much defines how I see these types of relationships in an authority-based dynamic.

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:05:54 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

I would suggest some terms to be used instead of Master and slave:

- Leader / follower
- Ruler / subject
- Guide / follower
- Superior / subordinated
- Boss / subordinated
etc.

I'm sorry -- I had to give a couple of phrases above a "grammar wedgie"...

-Superior/subordinate
-Boss/subordinate

*grins*... GrammarGrinch strikes again!

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to SocratesNot)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:06:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

i do use Owner/property as well - quite a bit. But most still see a distinction between Owner/property and Master/slave. There's some interesting threads going on on FetLife about it.

The labels are rather irrelevant to me. Frankly, there is distinctions between every relationship and maybe even a few smiliarities too. The use of O/p or M/s seems nothing more to group relationships that hold common ground and seperate those that are different. But, as of yet, I have not seen a common definition of those that consider themselves O/p or M/s even amoung themselves. In fact, there seems to be more debate amoung themselves what is O/p or M/s than between anyone else.

I find the identifications of oneself to a label to be hardly useful. Labels are just words that can be useful to help in communicating ones situation. But it's becomes rather difficult with the definitions are as numerous as the people in such relationships. I know what my relationship is no matter what label a person might want to put to it or what I put to it. When it comes to expressing and having an understanding what that is.. well... I find using a label alone to be less than effective if not bringing more confusion to the matter.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:09:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

I would suggest some terms to be used instead of Master and slave:

- Leader / follower
- Ruler / subject
- Guide / follower
- Superior / subordinated
- Boss / subordinated
etc.

... but do any of these labels (including M/s or O/p or any other label) reflect the relationship to the fullest? I think not.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SocratesNot)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:10:50 AM

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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
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Thought of changing your sig line at all, Michael? Or did you really just start this thread to stir the shit? (and yes, you HAVE raised the bar, thx)

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

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RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:12:03 AM

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Joined: 7/24/2006
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UniqueRaven,

quote:

Yes, and this is one of the reasons i've stopped participating on forums pretty much in general - for some reason they all seem to be going for the extremes these days. Maybe it's just me. But whatever happened to just discussing things and sharing ideas? Hmm....

In my opinion it is all very hypocritical. I've seen insults levied across the lines from all sides. From those berating people they consider bedroom types, submissive versus slave, my kink is better than your kink, or how low (extreme) can we go. In the end you're doing things that only involve the person/s laying next to you. The rest of the world couldn't truly care less.

As for participation, yes, I am a member of the group named and several others where the members participate. Extreme behavior can come in many guises. From the inexperienced to the very. It's a matter of personal choice. I cannot speak for others, but I will say this much. I won't allow anyone to contaminate my soil. The precious space inside of my head is his. In the end, what I'm witnessing is no different than watching the news, reading a book, or seeing something out of the ordinary on the street. It can only impact me if I permit it to do so.

My kneel has made me more tolerant, much more compassionate, and willing to see things from a different perspective. It has also made me less judgmental. People are people after all. That doesn't disappear with BDSM.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:12:42 AM

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Joined: 5/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

I would suggest some terms to be used instead of Master and slave:

- Leader / follower
- Ruler / subject
- Guide / follower
- Superior / subordinated
- Boss / subordinated
etc.

I'm sorry -- I had to give a couple of phrases above a "grammar wedgie"...

-Superior/subordinate
-Boss/subordinate

*grins*... GrammarGrinch strikes again!

Calla

Thanks Calla for correcting me. This can happen when English is not your native language.

BTW, of all these terms I am most fond of Ruler / subject. I think it is closest to reality of relationship, has no negative connotations of slavery, and has some dignified elegance.

So, Ruler / subject is my favorite term!

_____________________________

Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas. - Aristotle
Plato is my friend, but truth is a better friend. - Aristotle

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:15:27 AM

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

Yes, and this is one of the reasons i've stopped participating on forums pretty much in general - for some reason they all seem to be going for the extremes these days. Maybe it's just me. But whatever happened to just discussing things and sharing ideas? Hmm....

Well, I'm glad you dropped in today.

As some people have noticed in some of My harsher responses on the forums, it isn't the folks who are more extreme that I think are the larger issue. It can be very difficult to maintain a better quality of discussion and thought sharing when you have two obvious camps. One is based on experience in what they know and the other is based on what they think they know, but don't have a basis for in reality.

It's one thing not to have life experience in these things yet and wonder about the possibilities. It's another thing entirely to not have these experiences yet and try to swear up and down that what you think, even without proof, absolutely is true.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:16:22 AM

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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I have never believed the two were identical. But you can have elements of both in a relationship. I have been on the receiving end of each. There were similarities and marked differences. There's an omission of latitude in my mind where property is concerned. But that's just my spin on it. :)

OK, I've got a crisp, factual, definition for ownership...

Ownership: A social reality only wherein all members of a given society agree that one party has a specific set of rights in relation to another party or thing. This set of rights is called "property rights" and has not ever, in any context meant "you may do whatever you want". Given that the concept of "ownership" is a society based concept, it becomes necessary to accurately describe the scope of the discussion before we can talk about it intelligently. To use a personal example. Carol and I can absolutely agree upon both ownership and a set of property rights and they are real within the society of "us". If we participated in a larger community (say leather for example), that community may also recognize those property rights and status in which case they become "real" there. Clearly at the larger context of US society, the ownership no longer applies. This is no different than, say, property rights in relation to owning land which are seen in vastly different ways in different cultures. The same can be said of intellectual property rights and ownership of ideas.

But "mastering a woman"? I tell Carol to do stuff and she does it. So far, she has done it every time so it's factually accurate to say that up until this moment, it's been "total" or "absolute". But I would have no idea whether I mastered her. In your opinion, can you crisply and factually define this or is it more of a poetic concept?

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 5/28/2010 11:17:23 AM >

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:18:19 AM

Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

UniqueRaven,

quote:

Yes, and this is one of the reasons i've stopped participating on forums pretty much in general - for some reason they all seem to be going for the extremes these days. Maybe it's just me. But whatever happened to just discussing things and sharing ideas? Hmm....

In my opinion it is all very hypocritical. I've seen insults levied across the lines from all sides. From those berating people they consider bedroom types, submissive versus slave, my kink is better than your kink, or how low (extreme) can we go. In the end you're doing things that only involve the person/s laying next to you. The rest of the world couldn't truly care less.

As for participation, yes, I am a member of the group named and several others where the members participate. Extreme behavior can come in many guises. From the inexperienced to the very. It's a matter of personal choice. I cannot speak for others, but I will say this much. I won't allow anyone to contaminate my soil. The precious space inside of my head is his. In the end, what I'm witnessing is no different than watching the news, reading a book, or seeing something out of the ordinary on the street. It can only impact me if I permit it to do so.

My kneel has made me more tolerant, much more compassionate, and willing to see things from a different perspective. It has also made me less judgmental. People are people after all. That doesn't disappear with BDSM.

~porcelaine

Hi porcelaine, i apologize if i offended you - it wasn't my intent. i don't participate on the FetLife boards at all. i was really referring to some of the conversations i've seen here on CollarMe the last few months.

i'm not dogmatic about anything - i think that everyone is unique (one of the reasons for my screen name) and that the ways to do the things that we do are as varied as the people who do them. This is why i mention simple discussing and sharing vs. some of the dogmatic threads i've seen lately - it just puzzles me.

And for me too, submission, as well as my yoga therapy training, has made me much more tolerant, compassionate, and accepting as well - which is one of the reasons i've decided to just not participate in the vast majority of the conversations - it just doesn't seem to go anywhere positive to do so, for me.

Again, i didn't mean to insult you or anyone else in particular - i was responding to SimplyMichael's post, but i don't know any of the people that he named, either on the FetLife boards or in real life.

_____________________________

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" ~Snoopy (Charles Schultz)

My blog is at http://takinghishand.wordpress.com

(in reply to porcelaine)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:19:12 AM

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Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

SocratesNot - I would suggest some terms to be used instead of Master and slave:

- Superior / subordinate

I've used subordinate as a descriptor for myself on occasion. But I'm usually referencing the dominant in leadership or architectural terms when doing so.

quote:

Calla - I prefer either "Keeper/kept"

That pairing is my personal favorite.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:19:53 AM

Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven
Yes, and this is one of the reasons i've stopped participating on forums pretty much in general - for some reason they all seem to be going for the extremes these days. Maybe it's just me. But whatever happened to just discussing things and sharing ideas? Hmm....

Well, I'm glad you dropped in today.

As some people have noticed in some of My harsher responses on the forums, it isn't the folks who are more extreme that I think are the larger issue. It can be very difficult to maintain a better quality of discussion and thought sharing when you have two obvious camps. One is based on experience in what they know and the other is based on what they think they know, but don't have a basis for in reality.

It's one thing not to have life experience in these things yet and wonder about the possibilities. It's another thing entirely to not have these experiences yet and try to swear up and down that what you think, even without proof, absolutely is true.

Thank you, LadyPact, and yes, you clarified even more what i was referring to, better than i could.

_____________________________

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" ~Snoopy (Charles Schultz)

My blog is at http://takinghishand.wordpress.com

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:23:11 AM

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

Yes, and this is one of the reasons i've stopped participating on forums pretty much in general - for some reason they all seem to be going for the extremes these days. Maybe it's just me. But whatever happened to just discussing things and sharing ideas? Hmm....

Well, I'm glad you dropped in today.

As some people have noticed in some of My harsher responses on the forums, it isn't the folks who are more extreme that I think are the larger issue. It can be very difficult to maintain a better quality of discussion and thought sharing when you have two obvious camps. One is based on experience in what they know and the other is based on what they think they know, but don't have a basis for in reality.

It's one thing not to have life experience in these things yet and wonder about the possibilities. It's another thing entirely to not have these experiences yet and try to swear up and down that what you think, even without proof, absolutely is true.

Oh god is that so true on so many levels. There is a line from a sci fi show about how you have to torture a man to really know him, LA can probably quote it from memory. Lady Pact and I have met but neither of us have seen the other with a partner and till you SEE that, in person, your knowledge of them is partial, even then it isn't complete. Anyone who has done this for any serious length of time has had the experience of meeting someone you thought was either fluffy or extreme, and then upon seeing them with their partner realizing how very wrong you were, or at least how little the words captured the reality of who they are.

Talking about m/s or D/s with people who you have not seen their interactions in person is like trying to describe colors to each other. A thousand words won't do it but pointing and saying "that is the blue I mean" is instantly understood.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:25:57 AM

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Joined: 7/24/2006
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UniqueRaven,

quote:

Hi porcelaine, i apologize if i offended you - it wasn't my intent. i don't participate on the FetLife boards at all. i was really referring to some of the conversations i've seen here on CollarMe the last few months.

Please don't apologize. You didn't offend me at all.

quote:

This is why i mention simple discussing and sharing vs. some of the dogmatic threads i've seen lately - it just puzzles me.

I've had a few head scratching moments myself. But I've seen this played out in the past on mailing lists and such so I'm pretty immune for the most part.

quote:

which is one of the reasons i've decided to just not participate in the vast majority of the conversations - it just doesn't seem to go anywhere positive to do so, for me.

I enjoy intelligent discourse but I won't engage in a cesspool of negativity. That's not my thing.

quote:

Again, i didn't mean to insult you or anyone else in particular - i was responding to SimplyMichael's post, but i don't know any of the people that he named, either on the FetLife boards or in real life.

You didn't, no worries. As for Fetlife, I enjoy the boards and post more frequently over there in all honesty. Drop me a line if you ever pop in.

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:26:34 AM

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
I have never believed the two were identical. But you can have elements of both in a relationship. I have been on the receiving end of each. There were similarities and marked differences. There's an omission of latitude in my mind where property is concerned. But that's just my spin on it. :)

OK, I've got a crisp, factual, definition for ownership...

Ownership: A social reality only wherein all members of a given society agree that one party has a specific set of rights in relation to another party or thing. This set of rights is called "property rights" and has not ever, in any context meant "you may do whatever you want". Given that the concept of "ownership" is a society based concept, it becomes necessary to accurately describe the scope of the discussion before we can talk about it intelligently. To use a personal example. Carol and I can absolutely agree upon both ownership and a set of property rights and they are real within the society of "us". If we participated in a larger community (say leather for example), that community may also recognize those property rights and status in which case they become "real" there. Clearly at the larger context of US society, the ownership no longer applies. This is no different than, say, property rights in relation to owning land which are seen in vastly different ways in different cultures. The same can be said of intellectual property rights and ownership of ideas.

But "mastering a woman"? I tell Carol to do stuff and she does it. So far, she has done it every time so it's factually accurate to say that up until this moment, it's been "total" or "absolute". But I would have no idea whether I mastered her. In your opinion, can you crisply and factually define this or is it more of a poetic concept?

Thanks Jeff! The ownership you have over Carol is the complete opposite of ownership in any of the old sense of the word slave, which was my point. In that form of slavery it works the opposite, the farther from society you go and the closer it got to just the two of you, the less you would have ownership of a slave in the historical context. Which is why using historical contexts to define slavery as we practice it is so laughable to me.

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: Slavery is bullshit - 5/28/2010 11:38:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
if you do not have reality, then all you have is theory. That is why debating theory endlessly is terribly fascinating for so many people here.

This is one of the few times I have wished I had more space in my sig line, so I could carry a post around for a while, for all to see.

UniqueRaven, despite all the summer-vacation-static here right now, I do see a lot of people seriously discussing and sharing ideas. In fact, a currently-active thread about the horrors of slave-like relationships led ne woman in those relationships to thank profusely multiple people on the thread for sharing so much about themselves. This thread might never have come about if it hadn't been for an obstreperous OP. The OP probably learned almost nothing, but someone else believed that she had been greatly helped.

Have you ever been in the situation where you didn't really know where you stood on some position until you had to say it out loud to someone whose viewpoint was far different from your own? I bet you have, because you think with breadth and depth. That's the process going on right now on the boards. It's more acrimonious than I would like, and I can't imagine the mods are going to allow a slugfest atmosphere to continue forever, but a lot of people have been sharing a lot here lately. It's a bit humbling to watch.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to leadership527)

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