RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:12:19 AM

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THis is people with strong religious convictions the OP's talking about, for crying out loud! Strawman arguments is all that they've got in this case.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:13:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

THis is people with strong religious convictions the OP's talking about, for crying out loud! Strawman arguments is all that they've got in this case.

And case in point about atheists doing exactly the same to religious folks. Thanks by the way.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:18:02 AM

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You miss my point: any argument about something that's not just impossible to prove but actually has to be accepted completely on blind faith is a pretty good example of a strawman, I'd have thought.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:34:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
I've seen the data on IQ differences. I wonder if these atheists with the higher intelligence were born abd bred atheists. What about a religious person who abandoms their religious beliefs ? Do they get smarter, do their IQ points rise up ?
Conversely, if an atheist has an epiphony and at some point subscribes to a religion, do they get dumber ? Do they lose IQ points ? Same questions apply to the other traits that are assigned to atheists vs religious people.
Is the child or young person who has very devout religious beliefs doomed for life in the smarts department, even if they become atheists as adults ?
For the sake of diversity and fairness should we have different IQ testing for religious and atheist folks ? You know, like an affirmative action type thing for the religious crowd. Seems to me issuing the same test to the poor little Christian, Jewish and Muslim kids take is setting them up for a life of failure and inferiority. < sacasm >
There was a point in my life when I did not believe in God or religion. Was I smarter then ? Did returning to my religious views diminish my IQ points ?

You understand the importance of the words "tend to" in the phrase "tend to have lower IQs," right?

Yep, I do understand that word.

My questions remain the same. Many atheists seem to delight in using the " we < as a collective group > have higher IQ than you < as a collective group >.

And Panda: With the exception of where I said I was being sarcastic, re : affirmative action/different testing, I am dead serious. I would love to know if there is any data on that. Most atheists I know were raised and believed in a religion at some point in their lives. So how can it be that they " tend " to have higher IQs and all the other accoutraments. Was the data different when they were believers ?

There was a study done in Austrailia, I will look for a link, I read it some time ago. < Maybe IB or another Aussie member can help me out >I can't remember the exact percentage. Anyhow it showed that some where in the low-mid 20% of church attenders earned a college or post grad degree vs low teen % of the general population. So what does that study say in comparison to the other one ? Do Aussie atheists " tend " to be less educated than religious people ? < questions are rhetorical and mentioned for illustrative purposes. >

Personally I think it is all hogwash and don't believe one religious beliefs or lack of has any direct effect on intelligence.

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 6/18/2010 8:37:10 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:35:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

You miss my point: any argument about something that's not just impossible to prove but actually has to be accepted completely on blind faith is a pretty good example of a strawman, I'd have thought.

I disagree.

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

If I say that I believe in something I can't prove because of the wonder around me or because I feel a connection with a higher being, that is hardly a misrepresentation of an opponent's position. It's utterly unprovable but it's not a straw man.

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(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:40:32 AM

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I don't know why AquaticSub is trying to convince us all that magic carpets exist. I personally have seen no evidence of magic carpets apart from those in films etc.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:41:55 AM

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So you can prove that God's (or Gods') existence isn't a fallacy, then? You can demonstrate that the important part of a religious conviction isn't a blind faith on received information even if that has been questioned or out and out disproven?
That's without even getting started on the argument a lot of people with deep religious convinctions are keen on, that any rival belief somebody else might have is based on just the same sort of blind faith as theirs are.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:43:54 AM

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quote:

Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist?

Why do people think it's OK to strawman anything? It, along with the usually accompanying circumstantial ad homimem, is a fallacy by definition, automatically invalidating one's attempt at argument. From there the attacks and bickering ensue.

But they hear it constantly on the radio and TV, and people like the glib sound bites, flawed as they are.

Unfortunately, this shuts down any chance at discussion and debate before it starts, but then that's the point of introducing fallacies, to shut down the conversation and declare oneself the winner.

Alas, one's opponents remain unconvinced, and the poster has self-identified as unreasonable (by definition). But that's the popular conception today. Thinking and working out supported positions takes time and integrity.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/18/2010 8:44:27 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:43:59 AM

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You've missed the point of what falls under the heading of straw man and are using the term incorrectly.

Being able to prove the topic at hand or not has nothing to do with it - it's if the position is a misrepresentation of the opponent's position that makes something a straw man.

Saying "All atheists are bad people because they don't believe in the Ten Commandents" is a straw man. Saying "All religious people blindlessly follow the church because they follow the Ten Commandents" is a straw man. Saying "I believe in something I can't feel or touch" is not a straw man. Saying "I can't believe in anything I can't feel or touch" is not a straw man.

Understand?

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/18/2010 8:45:50 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:45:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

You've missed the point of what falls under the heading of straw man and are using the term incorrectly.

Being able to prove the topic at hand or not has nothing to do with it - it's if the position is a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

quote:

That's without even getting started on the argument a lot of people with deep religious convinctions are keen on, that any rival belief somebody else might have is based on just the same sort of blind faith as theirs are.

What, as in this case, you mean?

quote:

That's without even getting started on the argument a lot of people with deep religious convinctions are keen on, that any rival belief somebody else might have is based on just the same sort of blind faith as theirs are.

How is that not misprisioning an atheist's viewpoint?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:46:07 AM

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For anyone interested:

Definition/Examples of Strawman

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:47:22 AM

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quote:

How is that not misprisioning an atheist's viewpoint?

It's an inaccurate assumption.

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:47:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

That's without even getting started on the argument a lot of people with deep religious convinctions are keen on, that any rival belief somebody else might have is based on just the same sort of blind faith as theirs are.

What, as in this case, you mean?

quote:

That's without even getting started on the argument a lot of people with deep religious convinctions are keen on, that any rival belief somebody else might have is based on just the same sort of blind faith as theirs are.

How is that not misprisioning an atheist's viewpoint?

It might be. It's some quote you've taken out of context that I'm not familiar with. I'm just discussing what does and does not make a straw man with you, I'm not interested in religious debate. I know what I believe and I'm sure you know what you do or do not believe and are comfortable with it.

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:49:44 AM

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Found the link

http://www.ncls.org.au/default.aspx?sitemapid=6552

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:54:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
I've seen the data on IQ differences. I wonder if these atheists with the higher intelligence were born abd bred atheists. What about a religious person who abandoms their religious beliefs ? Do they get smarter, do their IQ points rise up ?
Conversely, if an atheist has an epiphony and at some point subscribes to a religion, do they get dumber ? Do they lose IQ points ? Same questions apply to the other traits that are assigned to atheists vs religious people.
Is the child or young person who has very devout religious beliefs doomed for life in the smarts department, even if they become atheists as adults ?
For the sake of diversity and fairness should we have different IQ testing for religious and atheist folks ? You know, like an affirmative action type thing for the religious crowd. Seems to me issuing the same test to the poor little Christian, Jewish and Muslim kids take is setting them up for a life of failure and inferiority. < sacasm >
There was a point in my life when I did not believe in God or religion. Was I smarter then ? Did returning to my religious views diminish my IQ points ?

You understand the importance of the words "tend to" in the phrase "tend to have lower IQs," right?

This is a good example of people confusing conclusions drawn from data gathered, as well as ignoring other likely causes and correlations.

For example--are socio-economic factors at play here? They would also credibly account for the difference.

For too many studies falsely "show" (or their readers take them as showing) what is possible, vs. what is demonstrably true in a causal sense.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/18/2010 8:55:04 AM >

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 8:58:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

You lose ten IQ points for every time you agree with rule or real0ne but you can gain them back if you make sure you get at least eight hours sleep.

LOL.... I'm gonna have to get the calculator out.

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:07:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
Found the link
http://www.ncls.org.au/default.aspx?sitemapid=6552

And the counter link:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm

A draft of Victor Stenger's excellent Has Science Found God? is mentioned in the article linked to just above. I own a copy of the book. He spoke here in Denver to an Atheist group, starting "My proof of the lack of a designer is simple. Why would a designer put the sewer next to the amusement park?"

He lives in Colorado.

The link to "Has Science Found God?" isn't working. BRB. But try this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_the_failed_hypothesis

Better yet... Here's Stenger's wiki article. In his list of book titles (arranged chronologically), you can see his thoughts develop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_J._Stenger

He's an astrophysicist who is able to make some of the most complex information understandable to the lay-person. I highly recommend "Has Science Found God?" since it is NOT argumentative, but lays out the positions of disagreement by actual quotes. That is, NO straw-men for him.

Try it, you'll like it!

And to see what he's currrently "up to" http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 6/18/2010 9:25:58 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:23:13 AM

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Lance: And that is exactly my position. We can point-counter point each other all day with this study and that study. I used the Austailian one as a counter point to the other one. You used yours to counterpoint me. In the end, who would win a study for study contest ? Does it matter ?

I don't put any stock in any of these studies as I percieve them as skewed or more appropriately: unable to come to any definate conclusion in regard to the intelligence etc of either group. As I said, it's all hogwash to me.

As a side note and a discussion for another day. Is it really that important in life to have the " one up " on the brains pool ? I have learned as much in life from people with lesser IQs as I have from people with higher IQ's. Which has made me smarter. I think it's about being open to learning and never thinking you have learned enough, not which group you are pigeon holed into.

mbmbn

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:25:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Same reasons atheists think it's ok to strawman religious people - they strongly disagree on the topic. *shrugs* From the point of view of a religious person, I've never met people more intent on "converting" me than atheists. But, of course, that is simply personal experience.

Bullshit!

Give me examples of atheistic organizations intent on converting the religious to atheism.

And by that I mean an organization who actively tries to recruit believers into non-believers.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:28:15 AM

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Please note: I said atheists, not atheistic organizations.

As I stated, it has been my personal experience that the people most intent on converting me were atheists. If that offends you... well, that's just too bad because it's the truth. I do not believe any atheistic organizations are out to convert me or anyone else.

I have simply encountered individual atheists with poor behavior and a fervor for their beliefs or non-beliefs, whichever term the atheists on this thread are more comfortable with, and have yet to encounter a religious person attempting to convert me that matched the atheist's... passion shall we say.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/18/2010 9:33:04 AM >

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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