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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:28:19 AM

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People, especially stupid people, tend to strawman everything. Religion is dumb, everyone with half a brain already knows....ya just have to ignore them as best you can and...essentially...wait for them to die. Religion's been decreasing consistently for a couple of hundred years, it will go eventually...too retarded to survive.

@ maybemaybenot "And Panda: With the exception of where I said I was being sarcastic, re : affirmative action/different testing, I am dead serious. I would love to know if there is any data on that. Most atheists I know were raised and believed in a religion at some point in their lives. So how can it be that they " tend " to have higher IQs and all the other accoutraments. Was the data different when they were believers ?"

Smart people = less religious, stupid people = more religious, in the same way that smart people are less likely to accidentally set themselves on fire. Setting yourself on fire isn't a CAUSE of stupidity, it's a SIGN of stupidity. Anyone who sets themselves on fire by mistake....probably not too sharp. Not being religious doesn't cause you to be more intelligent, being more intelligent causes you to be less religious.

And yes, the correlation is strong and universally present, there are other factors as well but it's more than clear....just from thinking about the people you know if you don't want to give creedence to any studies, religious people & stupid people are in most cases the same group.

(in reply to LanceHughes)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:31:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Same reasons atheists think it's ok to strawman religious people - they strongly disagree on the topic. *shrugs* From the point of view of a religious person, I've never met people more intent on "converting" me than atheists. But, of course, that is simply personal experience.

Bullshit!

Give me examples of atheistic organizations intent on converting the religious to atheism.

And by that I mean an organization who actively tries to recruit believers into non-believers.

I personally am going to change the name of Sons of Norway to Sons o Bitches, raise the entrance rates and let all the Catholics join.

Odin the One-eyed god of war and confusion.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:31:30 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Yep, I do understand that word.

My questions remain the same. Many atheists seem to delight in using the " we < as a collective group > have higher IQ than you < as a collective group >.

Sure, but that's not what she said. So I'm not sure why the response was relevant to her post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
And Panda: With the exception of where I said I was being sarcastic, re : affirmative action/different testing, I am dead serious. I would love to know if there is any data on that. Most atheists I know were raised and believed in a religion at some point in their lives. So how can it be that they " tend " to have higher IQs and all the other accoutraments. Was the data different when they were believers ?

I'd be curious too, but I don't see the significant distinction you seem to be trying to find. You really seem to be reaching here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
There was a study done in Austrailia, I will look for a link, I read it some time ago. < Maybe IB or another Aussie member can help me out >I can't remember the exact percentage. Anyhow it showed that some where in the low-mid 20% of church attenders earned a college or post grad degree vs low teen % of the general population. So what does that study say in comparison to the other one ? Do Aussie atheists " tend " to be less educated than religious people ? < questions are rhetorical and mentioned for illustrative purposes. >

You're conflating intelligence with education level. These surveys measured two different things. You can draw whatever conclusions you like from the comparison, but it's not an accurate one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
Personally I think it is all hogwash and don't believe one religious beliefs or lack of has any direct effect on intelligence.

I think the argument is that the reverse is true.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:32:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Lance: And that is exactly my position. We can point-counter point each other all day with this study and that study. I used the Austailian one as a counter point to the other one. You used yours to counterpoint me. In the end, who would win a study for study contest ? Does it matter ?

I don't put any stock in any of these studies as I percieve them as skewed or more appropriately: unable to come to any definate conclusion in regard to the intelligence etc of either group. As I said, it's all hogwash to me.

As a side note and a discussion for another day. Is it really that important in life to have the " one up " on the brains pool ? I have learned as much in life from people with lesser IQs as I have from people with higher IQ's. Which has made me smarter. I think it's about being open to learning and never thinking you have learned enough, not which group you are pigeon holed into.

mbmbn

Agreed: Such studies are almost always skewed to the results desired. That's why I continued with the Stenger info. That's where REAL science is right now.... basically, ALL the designer arguments are being "closed." Stenger does NOT use straw-men, which is, of course, getting us back to the OP. [See, VAA, I am doing posse work! LOL!] This thread was getting far afield from the OP, now wasn't it?

ETA: And, like most threads in P&R forum, was starting to get warmed up with a flame war pending.

The OP was about strawmen, not about the IQ of the religous vs. the IQ of the non-religious. PLEASE stay on topic!

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 6/18/2010 9:37:26 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:34:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
I've never met people more intent on "converting" me than atheists. But, of course, that is simply personal experience.

My personal experience is that people interested in talking about their position or looking to deconvert you are more likely to self identify as atheist. People who aren't interested might hold the exact same position I do

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Perhaps you are phrasing your stance in a way that is insulting to those who hold different views.

I understand that some people are knowingly straw manning me, I'm more curious about the people who really don't seem to understand that they are. The people like this who without insult or malice will walk into a debate and inform atheists what atheism is:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
I actually thought that atheism was the belief that there is no deity, and agnosticism is not believing in god but also not categorically disbelieving.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:36:18 AM

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You can't control what other people are saying but some like to try. This is all I can add to the op.

and that is the story about that.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 6/18/2010 9:39:00 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:37:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

That's without even getting started on the argument a lot of people with deep religious convinctions are keen on, that any rival belief somebody else might have is based on just the same sort of blind faith as theirs are.

What, as in this case, you mean?

quote:

That's without even getting started on the argument a lot of people with deep religious convinctions are keen on, that any rival belief somebody else might have is based on just the same sort of blind faith as theirs are.

How is that not misprisioning an atheist's viewpoint?

It might be. It's some quote you've taken out of context that I'm not familiar with. I'm just discussing what does and does not make a straw man with you, I'm not interested in religious debate. I know what I believe and I'm sure you know what you do or do not believe and are comfortable with it.

My point in a nutshell. I refuse to believe anything in the absence of evidence, while you're insisting that atheism is purely a matter of belief. That is a strawman argument. You've heard a lot of atheists talking about their blind faith in sacred texts, have you?

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:39:15 AM

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I confess: I don't see a problem with the statement. She is stating what she perceives, or perceived as she uses past tense so that may have changed, atheism and agnosticism to be. Not stating "This is what X and Y are" but "I thought X and Y were this". It's possible something has been lost in context but you'll have to fill me in.

On a personal note: Those are the loose definations that the friendly atheists and agnostics have always told me so if they are wrong, I could use an update too!

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/18/2010 9:43:17 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:41:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

My point in a nutshell. I refuse to believe anything in the absence of evidence, while you're insisting that atheism is purely a matter of belief. That is a strawman argument. You've heard a lot of atheists talking about their blind faith in sacred texts, have you?

Actually you'll find I've made no statements regarding if atheism is a matter of belief or not. I've been discussing what consistutes a straw man argument regarding the topic of belief or non-belief. If you'd like to know my personal views on atheism, you are certainly free to ask.

Again, I'm not having a religious debate with you but one of terminology and correct use of phrase.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/18/2010 9:42:50 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:46:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

My point in a nutshell. I refuse to believe anything in the absence of evidence, while you're insisting that atheism is purely a matter of belief. That is a strawman argument. You've heard a lot of atheists talking about their blind faith in sacred texts, have you?

Actually you'll find I've made no statements regarding if atheism is a matter of belief or not. I've been discussing what consistutes a straw man argument regarding the topic of belief or non-belief. If you'd like to know my personal views on atheism, you are certainly free to ask.

Again, I'm not having a religious debate with you but one of terminology and correct use of phrase.

quote:

I know what I believe and I'm sure you know what you do or do not believe and are comfortable with it.

Apart from this one:

quote:

I know what I believe and I'm sure you know what you do or do not believe and are comfortable with it.

Corrolary: atheism is a matter of belief.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:47:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Please note: I said atheists, not atheistic organizations.

As I stated, it has been my personal experience that the people most intent on converting me were atheists. If that offends you... well, that's just too bad because it's the truth. I do not believe any atheistic organizations are out to convert me or anyone else.

I have simply encountered individual atheists with poor behavior and a fervor for their beliefs or non-beliefs, whichever term the atheists on this thread are more comfortable with, and have yet to encounter a religious person attempting to convert me that matched the atheist's... passion shall we say.

I have never met any atheist who desired to convert anyone.

The objection atheists and agnostics have is to the constant inference from believers that what they believe is true.

I'm tired of listening to "it was God's will" and similar statements thrown around in casual conversation.

And as an interesting side note, how would a religious person convert you when you are already religious?

Care to hear the conversion attempts from a non-believer by the religious?

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 6/18/2010 9:49:06 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:49:55 AM

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I don't know you Moonhead. I don't know if you are atheist, Catholic, Jewish, Baptist or anything else.

You have also taken the statement out of context - which is, by the way, an example of a straw man approach. The whole context:

"It might be. It's some quote you've taken out of context that I'm not familiar with. I'm just discussing what does and does not make a straw man with you, I'm not interested in religious debate. I know what I believe and I'm sure you know what you do or do not believe and are comfortable with it.

"

Is again that I am not having a discussion of belief with you. What you believe or choose - for whatever reasons - not to believe is solely your business. That statement does not apply to any specific path/viewpoint/faith/religion/lifestyle or lack thereof. Simply that you have your own *insert your preferred term here* and I've no interest in debating how you got there.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/18/2010 9:51:30 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:50:31 AM

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Yes it has gotten of track and I will hush up after I address one thing.

DCWoody:
I did try to Cmail you this response, but your profile is not found. Your arrogance and insensitivity is astounding.
snip:
"Anyone who sets themselves on fire by mistake....probably not too sharp."

Funny you should use that anaolgy with me. One year ago, my VERY intelligent father was killed in a fire. It was an accidental house fire. It had nothing to do with his intelligence it had to do with him being old and frail and not able to respond quickly enough to what should have been a little thing. I am sure there are other people here that have lost someone in an accidental fire. Nice of you to let us know our loved ones weren't " too sharp ". Perhaps you should voluteer at a burns unit and let all the patients know how dumb they are. You would be a real moral booster.

mbmbn

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:53:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
For anyone interested:
Definition/Examples of Strawman

I have consulted Wiki Wiki Wild Wild Pedia about the origin but I'm not really understanding how a man outside a courthouse with straw in his shoe is indicating his willingness to bear false witness?

Unless he is asked if he has straw in his shoe in regards to some case involving the pilfering of straw.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 6/18/2010 9:56:52 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:56:43 AM

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That you object to ""Anyone who sets themselves on fire by mistake....probably not too sharp."", probably not the best sign for your prospects in any debate. My point was simple, I was being emphatic because you seemed incapable of getting your head around what is a very simple point: religion is primarily a result of stupidity, not a cause. Icecream sales correlate with temperature, but icecream does not cause the sun to come out.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:56:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I have never met any atheist who desired to convert anyone.

I believe you. However, I have. If you choose to believe me or not is up to you.

quote:

And as an interesting side note, how would a religious person convert you when you are already religious?

Remember that the term convert was in quotes however convert is not solely a religious term. When you convert cups to gallons, the water doesn't become Catholic.

quote:

Convert: 1 a : to bring over from one belief, view, or party to another b : to bring about a religious conversion in

quote:

Care to hear the conversion attempts from a non-believer by the religious?

To be honest, not really. I tend to look on conversion - that is, someone trying to get someone else to convert without the person having already expressed an interest - with a certain amount of disdain regardless of who is doing it and it's not my favorite topic of conversation.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/18/2010 9:58:37 AM >

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 9:59:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I don't know you Moonhead. I don't know if you are atheist, Catholic, Jewish, Baptist or anything else.

You have also taken the statement out of context - which is, by the way, an example of a straw man approach. The whole context:

"It might be. It's some quote you've taken out of context that I'm not familiar with. I'm just discussing what does and does not make a straw man with you, I'm not interested in religious debate. I know what I believe and I'm sure you know what you do or do not believe and are comfortable with it. "

Is again that I am not having a discussion of belief with you. What you believe or choose - for whatever reasons - not to believe is solely your business. That statement does not apply to any specific path/viewpoint/faith/religion/lifestyle or lack thereof. Simply that you have your own *insert your preferred term here* and I've no interest in debating how you got there.

Fair enough. I'm probably a little oversensitive about that one, as the "atheism is a matter of blind faith too" line is one beloved of people with strong religious convictions who are out to insist that the opposition's standpoint and theirs are identical. (I've seen it trotted out in here a fair few times.) Always infuriates me, that one, so I've obviously been getting snottier towards you than what you're saying warranted. Just a case of the red mist descending. Mea culpa.

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RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 10:03:11 AM

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Happens to everyone. Thanks for apologizing.

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It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 12:49:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
My personal experience is that people interested in talking about their position or looking to deconvert you are more likely to self identify as atheist. People who aren't interested might hold the exact same position I do

I'm not sure how that got cut off, it should have read:

People who aren't interested might hold the exact same position I do but refer to themselves as non-religious.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Why do people think it's ok to strawman an atheist? - 6/18/2010 12:57:35 PM

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Atheists who get all zealous about it, starting threads and stuff as often as possible remind me of born again Christians in their mad ardor about the subject.

Great someone is an atheist. Next...

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