Collarchat.com

Join Our Community		 Collarchat.com

Home  Login  Search 

RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 11:20:40 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

I say take responsibility and aim to set forth in all you do as a man to reflect qualities that bring about honorable results with your lady. Purpose to do that which is indicative of chivalry in some form. Lest the embers of regret shall hauntingly burn within the soul of a man.


I love this. 


Experience teaches a man if he allows it to. Iron sharpens iron!

Take good care of you!

(in reply to Daddysredhead)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 11:28:28 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 801
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Your further input regarding this subject is fully welcome.



Thank you. I believe my original comments will suffice.

~porcelaine


Very well ~porcelaine! If that changes do feel free to expound on the topic:Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture.

Take good care of you!

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 11:49:59 PM   
Shadow-tiger


Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/8/2008
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

When I use the term chivalry I am speaking in terms of the combination of qualities especially courage, honor, loyalty, and consideration for others, especially shown by a men toward women.

Chivalry does seem to be unheard of and not widely practiced among men in the society of Western Culture. Among the BDSM Community chivalry surely seems to be not practiced at all. My question(s) herein below are presented in a sincere manner. I am wanting to determine if my perception is flawed when it comes to my perception of how chivalry is viewed and or practiced among the BDSM Community and in society of Western Culture.

While I consider myself more old fashioned than chivalrous, I tend to treat the people around me with respect unless they deserve otherwise. I may not always hold the door for someone, give the utmost consideration, or be the kindest I can be.. I do tend towards being the nice guy, helpful, loyal to those who earn my loyalty.

And I feel that a woman deserves to be treated like a lady. Not because she's some fragile thing of glass, but because that's how I show my respect. Just because I may have a lovely lass down on her knees eventually, to be treated like a two bit whore doesn't make her any less deserving of respect the rest of the time.

It's something I find difficult to put into specific words, as it has become part of my nature hence I don't even think about it. Though one thing that strikes me as important, though I wonder if this would be chivalrous or just the opposite: When speaking to a woman, speak to her as a person first and always. Apparently that's one not enough people do.

As for anyone else, I have to admit I don't even get the point of view where women are views as something less. *shrug*

Just my rambling


_____________________________

Just some guy (profile)
Just a tiny bit evil
My kind of love song

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 11:50:41 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		In my experience, the practice of chivalry is not a matter of eastern or western cultures, but of truly civilized cultures which practice mutual respect. I lived in an eastern culture for several years, and despite the cultural ideals, the actual practice tended to be misogynistic.

I think that "old school" BDSMers were more aligned with chivalry. Then the internet happened.

Chivalry arises from self respect and self discipline. It is "unappealing" to narcissists, because it requires empathy and sharing.



< Message edited by aldompdx -- 8/1/2010 11:56:20 PM >

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/1/2010 11:59:00 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

In my experience, the practice of chivalry is not a matter of eastern or western cultures, but of truly civilized cultures which practice mutual respect.

I lived in an eastern culture for several years, and despite the cultural ideals, the actual practice tended to be misogynistic.

I think that "old school" BDSMers were more aligned with chivalry, as you call it. Then the internet happened.

Chivalry is "unappealing" to narcissists, because it requires empathy and sharing. It arises from self respect and self discipline.


I have encountered the behavior within the leather culture. Many of the men I have conversed with conduct themselves in a gentlemanly manner. It is a refreshing difference.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to aldompdx)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 12:05:18 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones%27_Medieval_Lives

An excellent series on life during the Middle Ages, including an in-depth episode on Chivalry. It wasn't what you think it is. Available on Netflix Instant view.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 12:20:40 AM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		Since the detailed meaning of chivalry is under debate I'll just say that, I'm one of those girls who likes being 'treated delicately' when it comes to those old traditional customs of holding chairs/doors, being ordered for, and a myriad of other little things. I like the feeling of being considered in all those thing. I appreciate a man who would sooner risk over-consideration and involvement in all the small things, then a man who would 'leave me to my own devices'.
As for 'inside BDSM' well, people are people, whether they are kinky or not, there seems to be just as many jerk-offs inside BDSM as outside of it, likewise, those rare chivilrous creatures are uncommon inside and out.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 1:53:24 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		i don't know about bdsm, but just in general i think nowadays people just do not get brought up to be polite... some people really struggle with the most basic forms of politeness...
A man might be very chivalrous but gets it thrown right back in his face by some rude ill mannered woman... then again the man might not be chivalrous at all but just adopt a slimy attitude to get her into bed or belittle her.
Many people are totally paranoid aswell and suspect people who are polite, because they are sure they are playing a game and want something... i blame all the additives in our food. 

For me it depends on my mood, i usually like it when men are polite and chivalrous, but sometimes it can be over the top and become embarrassing.
i dance with many different men and the men who have chivalrous ambitions are much nicer to dance with, but as a lady you have to beable to invite it and accept it and follow their lead

ETA merriam webster:
Main Entry: chiv·al·ry Pronunciation: \ˈshi-vəl-rē\Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural chiv·al·riesEtymology: Middle English chivalrie, from Anglo-French chevalerie, from chevaler knight — more at chevalierDate: 14th century1 : mounted men-at-arms
2 archaic a : martial valor b : knightly skill
3 : gallant or distinguished gentlemen
4 : the system, spirit, or customs of medieval knighthood
5 : the qualities of the ideal knight : chivalrous conduct

< Message edited by ranja -- 8/2/2010 1:59:34 AM >

(in reply to ProlificNeeds)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 2:51:09 AM   
areallivehuman


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline 		I don't think of it as chivalry, it's good manners and kindness. Yesterday in the grocery store, there was a young woman juggling a baby and her purse in her arms, her purse fell to the ground. I could not have stopped myself asking if I tried, "Maam, can I get that for you?"
I think the lack of chivalrous behaviour, good manners and kindness is directly linked to the breakdown of the family in modern Western culture.
That being said, it warms my heart to see my stepson open the car door for his wife. Because he learned that, by example, from me.

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 5:14:29 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

i dance with many different men and the men who have chivalrous ambitions are much nicer to dance with, but as a lady you have to be able to invite it and accept it and follow their lead


Is there a way of 'bringing out' the chivalry in a man?   That's an interesting idea. 

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 5:29:05 AM   
KurtAllen


Posts: 40
Joined: 7/9/2010
Status: offline 		It would please me to be perceived chivalrous but chivalry has been romanticized, individualized and cannibalized to the point of being confused with social graciousness, the projecting of a sophisticated demeanor and a host of other understandings while losing sight of the fact that chivalry is but one facet in a much larger honor code driving the man. The manny facited diamond sparkles brightly because of its facets, so too it is with the total of the man.

< Message edited by KurtAllen -- 8/2/2010 5:34:12 AM >

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 5:43:41 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

LOL! Yeah, I do view the common accepted definition as a combination of 1 and 2 below. Great joke though.

chivalry [ˈʃɪvəlrɪ]
n pl -ries
1. (Historical Terms) the combination of qualities expected of an ideal knight, esp courage, honour, justice, and a readiness to help the weak
2. courteous behaviour, esp towards women
3. (Historical Terms) the medieval system and principles of knighthood
4. (Historical Terms) knights, noblemen, etc., collectively


Op you might want to define your idea of chivalry. If we're talking about skill at arms and noblemen..uh......

I wanna be a white knight..I wanna be a white knight!

To the Op:
I open doors for anyone I see who might need it or simply because I feel like doing it. I do it on a regular basis.

I try to treat everyone evenly until I decide not to.

Women don't get special consideration.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 5:46:01 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: areallivehuman

I don't think of it as chivalry, it's good manners and kindness. Yesterday in the grocery store, there was a young woman juggling a baby and her purse in her arms, her purse fell to the ground. I could not have stopped myself asking if I tried, "Maam, can I get that for you?"
I think the lack of chivalrous behaviour, good manners and kindness is directly linked to the breakdown of the family in modern Western culture.
That being said, it warms my heart to see my stepson open the car door for his wife. Because he learned that, by example, from me.


Speaks volumes about you and I certainly would have appreciated and accepted the kind offer. Some men talk about it, some take actual action and I know which I prefer.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to areallivehuman)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 6:04:45 AM   
phoenixmoonn13


Posts: 398
Joined: 6/11/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddysredhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I love chivalrous behavior in the male species. I love doors opened for me, I love men that order for me, and I love men that think of my comfort, especially out in public. It tells me that they think of me, and it tells me that I am valued...


I agree with this.  Good manners and thoughtfulness make me feel very cared for and cherished. 

~ Red



i agree and my master holds doors open cares if i am getting wet in rain or cold and will give his coat even if it leaves him freezing. i love the ordering bit too as he pretty mcuh knows what i will choose its easy but he will ask me and then order as well. just makes me feel protected, loved cherised etc. as well as warm and cuddly

(in reply to Daddysredhead)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 6:51:06 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I think a lot of people confuse chivalry to mean manners and seduction.

Chivalry was a form of rules for knighthood which consisted of valor, piety, courtesy and chastity which then grew into courtly love which meant that a woman was to be unobtainable ensuring her chastity. Eventually chivalry became an outward show of public ceremony in jousting matches..aka....showing off, bragging.

Personally I don't see too much of any of this within bdsm, especially the chastity lol...ok, maybe the bragging through breast thumping among Doms in bdsm arenas lol.





Kerching! I was hoping someone was going to bring this up

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 7:00:57 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: areallivehuman
Because he learned that, by example, from me.


This is where my mind continued to go, in contemplating why chivalry, good manners, etc., seems less than the norm in our society (not just within the BDSM community).  Coupled with the feminist movement and resulting attitudes of many women of NOT wanting doors opened for them, etc., there are less and less examples at home for sons to emulate.  My father was a wonderful example of a "gentleman", in my eyes, and I just love seeing the way my brothers treat their wives - with such love and care. They learned by example, and, like my father, in no way see their wives as "less than" beings.

As for the man in my life, he has certain mindsets about the interactions between men and women, and he treats me accordingly.  I am not to open doors for him or for myself.  There are certain chores he does not want me doing, unless he is not available to do them and they can't go without for too long.  I admit since my past relationships were absent of this type of male behavior, it was difficult for me to accept at first; I found myself feeling defensive about it.  But I've come to understand that it's perfectly OK to receive such treatment, and it makes me feel no less of a valuable human than if I were to do such things myself.

Frankly, I really appreciate being treated this way, and it reflects back in the way I respond to him.  Like juliaoceania said, I feel cared for and valued, so I find myself treating him like a king in return.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to areallivehuman)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 8:56:08 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

I read a reply in a thread that mentioned something which generated much thought about chivalry. I consider myself to be a gentleman master that does practice chivalry.


I know you clarify later - but this first sentence did get me going a bit - "the practice of chivalry" would imply to me far, far, more than the qualities you define below.

quote:



When I use the term chivalry I am speaking in terms of the combination of qualities especially courage, honor, loyalty, and consideration for others, especially shown by a men toward women.


Fair enough - this is the "romantic/fantasy" definition of chivalry, though. The murder and rape committed by Knights on campaign during the era of "chivalry" is a pretty far, far, cry from the definition that you use.

quote:




Chivalry does seem to be unheard of and not widely practiced among men in the society of Western Culture.


I'm not sure it's fair to say it's "unheard of". Nor, if you're talking about the somewhat romantic definition that you use, would I say it wasn't widely practised.

quote:




Among the BDSM Community chivalry surely seems to be not practiced at all.


Again - I'm stuck - if you mean that "good manners, consideration, courage and loyalty don't appear to be practised at all within the BDSM community" then I'd have to say that you are exceedingly unlucky in your experience - I've met many dominants and subs (of either Gender) who would meet the "good manners, consideration, courage and loyalty" criteria.




quote:



My question(s) herein below are presented in a sincere manner. I am wanting to determine if my perception is flawed when it comes to my perception of how chivalry is viewed and or practiced among the BDSM Community and in society of Western Culture.

1] Is chivalry unappealing or appealing to those among the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?



No, on three counts. There are hoards of doms who adhere to values that would meet your definition, many even adopt pseudo-archaic english in order to emphasise their commitment to these chivalric values. I would say that people who are proponents of Gor would argue that they adhere to these values. Then there are a few doms out there who think "chivalry" is a silly, bogus term, for good manners, consideration and courage, these doms often apply this code of conduct to everyone, equally, irrespective of gender or BDSM orientation.

I belong to one of the above groups.




quote:



2] Is chivalry practiced among those in the BDSM Community AND if so please explain?


For sure it is. There are plenty of sensible, thoughtful, considerate people within the community.

quote:


3] What do you believe the reasons are for chivalry not being commonly practiced in society of Western Culture among the majority of men of today?


I just don't think it's sufficiently rare to see people behaving in a thoughtful, considerate way, to claim that the behaviour is uncommon.


_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 8:59:26 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Greetings Master,

This girl's Master came from BDSM prior to becoming Gorean and in both cases, he has always been chivalrous. Indeed one of this girl's rules is that she is not allowed in or out of the car unless he opens the door for her (or occasionally, gives her permission to let herself out if it is for some reason not expedient). He is the sort of man who holds open doors, shelters a girl with his umbrella, etc. Sometimes people have actually stopped him and commented about his opening the car door for his girl. It is indeed rather rare. But for this girl, it makes her feel more his and protected by him. It is definitely a quality this girl admires and looks for in a man.

Well wishes,
anna


Good day, anna:

The essence of your reply speaks volumes to what I am referring to in terms of chivalry being bestowed upon a lady who a gentleman chooses to make his own. Indeed the underlying nuances of chivalry are far reaching as is a stone when cast across waters. The ripple effect reflects the beauty of its object.

My best to you and your Master, moreover strength of mind, body and soul unto both of you. Indeed I bid good health, enough wealth and peace unto His household from mine.

Be most well!


Wait a second - are we introducing another facet of "chivalry" into your working definition - the notion that Women are the property of their men, to be forbidden to use a car door without permission?

And is pseudo-shakespearean language de-rigeur also, if a chap wants to be chivalrous?

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 9:54:59 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Is there a way of 'bringing out' the chivalry in a man?   That's an interesting idea. 


Let me guess, you have a different opinion. *chuckles*

For what it's worth there are a lot of men that talk about this and that's all it is. I think some women are skeptical because it is a ploy some use to entice before the bait and switch occurs. In my opinion real gentleman reveal themselves under less than pleasant circumstances, when angered, frustrated, etc.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western ... - 8/2/2010 10:10:02 AM   
KurtAllen


Posts: 40
Joined: 7/9/2010
Status: offline
quote:

before the bait and switch occurs

Would eleminating the bait and switch be like seeing a woman stepping out of the shower without makeup before spending endless hours needlessly.

< Message edited by KurtAllen -- 8/2/2010 10:11:01 AM >

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Chivalry among BDSM Community & society of Western Culture Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2024
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.098