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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 6:43:10 PM

Tantriqu

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As long as he said, 'poly is great, and it doesn't matter if you have more partners than I do': most men think a threesome is mff, and most poly relationships implode when someone gets jealous: the difference between fantasy and reality.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 6:48:58 PM

newprofile2010

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littlewonder -

His not going was an opportunity for him to have some private, intimate time with his other partner. He was happy to have me occupied and out of the room. I certainly did not ignore him all evening, I was gone for about 90 minutes. I even made sure to ask what the minimum time was that he wanted to be left alone with her, as to not interrupt their intimacy. It seemed to be a good plan for everyone involved. No one would be left out or lonely and everyone would be happy. He knew it was midnight when I left, and knew when (approximately) I would be getting back. My friends, our friends, would have happily helped me if they had known he would not.

I do not do relationships based on hints. I do relationships based on clear, direct communication. If he has provided information before the event about what his preferences were, I would have obeyed that. Since he did not, and since we had encountered a nearly identical situation before, I based my expectations on what our past arrangements were.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 6:52:35 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

Neither point of view is wrong.

I absolutely agree with this, but at the same time, if someone I have feelings for needs care, they get it. As a mature adult I can communicate with them about my feelings, what I feel they did wrong, etc etc etc...but I am there for those I care for. He decided to opt out of that, he has a right to, but she has a right to consider whether or not she wants to be with him as a result

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 6:55:04 PM

newprofile2010

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DesFIP - I honestly think that he didn't understand, as I haven't experienced that kind of reaction before.

The jealously part is bizarre. He's poly, has been for 15 years, and I've been (and am) sexually and romantically monogamous with him. I am really baffled by it. Oh, and it hasn't been four years, we've only been dating one. His former partner was a 4yr relationship.

Now armed with this knowledge, I can make plans and design outcomes that will be to the liking of everyone. It is the sudden "surprise, I'm not in the mood to do what I did last time" that threw me for such a loop.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 7:04:27 PM

newprofile2010

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LadyHibiscus -

If this was a vanilla partner that had never done any bdsm activities with me, hadn't watched me have a scene with someone else before, and hadn't provided aftercare following a scene with the same person that topped me this time (or read a book on the subject, which I made sure he did months ago), I would see it as a horrible imposition on them. But he's my top, he had engaged in bdsm activities long before I met him, and we'd done this dance before.

My friends were great, and had they even the slightest inkling that I would not be taken care of they would have bent over backwards to see that I was ok. They checked in the next day, we had breakfast, etc. I began asking, in a determined and very serious tone, for my boyfriend as soon as the scene was over, before I even stood up. Them taking me to him and handing me over was the same thing that had been done in the past. They (and I) assumed that I would be getting emotional and physical care from my lover and friend, so when they handed me over to him they didn't know anything would go amiss.

It makes me wonder about things just like that. What happens if I do get sick? I'm a runner, so does spraining my ankle while running count as "something I did to myself"? Would he be helpful and kind then?

I'm really confused, as he has been very supportive in the past during different situations.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 7:05:59 PM

junecleaver

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I would have expected my boyfriend to do something as simple as warm me up and get me a glass of water. It's not like you were asking to talk about a ton of girly feelings and cry on his shoulder for hours---it's just some cuddling and water! I would expect my boyfriend to take care of me if I did come home drunk out of my mind. Particularly if I had permission from him to go out and get hammered.

I'm not saying that the people you played with shouldn't have given you more aftercare BUT who can you count on if it's not your significant other? After you are not vulnerable is the time to discuss whatever he didn't like about whatever you did. After you can take care of yourself is the time to discuss if you need to make different arrangements.

I really just wouldn't trust him. Maybe there is significant enough history between the two of you that overrides this. Maybe there are many ways in which he shows how he can be counted on. Maybe you'll be able to see past this when you are over the drop. I only know this one story you've told us.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 7:09:17 PM

Zevar

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Take good care of you!

< Message edited by Zevar -- 8/10/2010 8:05:22 PM >

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 7:17:55 PM

newprofile2010

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LadyPact -

We did skip the aftercare negotiation. I figured it would be handled like the other times, but doing negotiations each and every time is now something I will do with him.

As to the cuddling after wild passionate sex with someone else, well since that is something he expects me to give him... He expects me to be supportive when his other relationships may be rocky (I get a lot of leaning on for advice about his other relationships) and I have been.

Fixing the approach from here on out is pretty clear. Negotiations each time. My only remaining perplexity is over why it would bother anyone if their partner came to bed and needed an extra blanket and a glass of water? It wasn't a lot of effort, I've gotten up to get him a glass of water in the middle of the night or fetched covers that had fallen off the bed if he was cold, and that was him being lazy and me being nice. I really just don't get it, and while I can move forward with a new understanding of the rules from this point, I'm left wondering if he's the kind of boyfriend I want. I'm left wondering if he's as kind, in general, as I need my partners to be.

But yes to the waiting a week for any major decisions!

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 7:24:01 PM

newprofile2010

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julieoceania -

That's it exactly. He does have a right to feel the way he felt, of course. I don't think that his desire to not provide aftercare is wrong. I would have preferred him taking 15 minutes to be kind, and then having a relationship discussion about his new expectations, etc the next day.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 7:32:18 PM

newprofile2010

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver

I would have expected my boyfriend to do something as simple as warm me up and get me a glass of water. It's not like you were asking to talk about a ton of girly feelings and cry on his shoulder for hours---it's just some cuddling and water! I would expect my boyfriend to take care of me if I did come home drunk out of my mind. Particularly if I had permission from him to go out and get hammered.

I'm not saying that the people you played with shouldn't have given you more aftercare BUT who can you count on if it's not your significant other? After you are not vulnerable is the time to discuss whatever he didn't like about whatever you did. After you can take care of yourself is the time to discuss if you need to make different arrangements.

I really just wouldn't trust him. Maybe there is significant enough history between the two of you that overrides this. Maybe there are many ways in which he shows how he can be counted on. Maybe you'll be able to see past this when you are over the drop. I only know this one story you've told us.

Yeah. That about sums it up. He's very, very, meticulously reliable in any area that does not involve emotions, affection, or bdsm. He does what he says he'll do each and every time he makes a commitment. It's become apparent recently that when things trigger issues for him he is unreliable. I'm trying to see this from his perspective, but I still feel that I've lost my friend that I depended on to always be, well, to always be "him". Reliable, responsible, conscientious, considerate, etc. He treats his friends well and his other relationship partners well. This, and other "jealousy/insecurity/bdsm" related issues are like a Jekyll and Hyde experience for me.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 7:50:36 PM

Cherylmazana

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I want to make it clear that I have never done any BDSM apart from extremely light basically vanilla stuff, so I have never experienced sub drop. However something someone said made me think about this from a different angle.

If I have gone out on a drunken binge with friends then come home and collapsed drunkenly I have expected my current partner to look after me then. In the morning the shouting and complaints can start and I will apologise profusely but at the time no matter how inconvenient it is if they care about me then they will do what is needed to make me safe and cared for. If for whatever reason he hasn’t then I look at it as he simply doesn’t care enough about me to worry about my well being and consider the relationship over. In turn I will look after him if the situation is reversed, and trust me it is usually the other way around I have cleaned up many more times than been cleaned up after.

I know in the UK we look at drinking differently than people in the US, but the situation is the same, you go off with friends have a great time they help you get home and then dump the shaking unthinking mess in the house.

It doesn’t matter that it’s your fault you got into such a state, the situation needs to be dealt with, and if they don’t care enough about you to help even if they are angry, then they simply don’t care enough about you. Some people won’t want to clean up “other people’s messes” that’s fine, say goodbye and seek out someone who cares more for you than whose fault it is because in the back of your mind there will always be the knowledge that there will always be another time, maybe something different and maybe not even your fault but the result will most likely be the same.

Cheryl

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 7:51:38 PM

marie2

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Of course this is only one side of the story, but I'm going to base my response on the hypothetical that all you've said is true.

I don't tend to look at things from a bdsm point of view...ie....you didn't scene with him, therefore, it's not his problem if you come home fucked up.

The way you described your relationship it sounds like you are in a committed situation, he is your dom, your boyfriend, your friend and your lover. He gave his permission for you to play with others without him present. That should also mean that as your dominant, he should give a shit if something negative came from the experience that he gave his permission for you to have.

You came back to him in a fucked up state. You are his sub and girlfriend and lover, he is your dominant. Regardless of WHY you came home fucked up, you were fucked up and needed his help. He not only wasn't there to help you, but he went to the other extreme of being cold to you, telling you to get your hands off of him, telling you to get your own water etc etc. Sorry, but I don't care if someone is merely my friend, my man, my lover, whatever, if I care about someone and they come back fucked from the experience, whether sub drop, drunk, injured, needy in some way, I'm getting out of bed and doing what I can to help this person that I supposedly care about. That's priority number one. If I were in his shoes as your dominant, after that was taken care of, I would have re-thunk my decision to let you go off and do this, and discussed it the next day after things for you had settled down. And since he has the authority and he gave you his blessing, he should be willing to step up to the plate if his decision left you fucked up and in need of support.

It sounds to me like deep down he did not want you to play, and was resentful of the whole thing. I really can't imagine even pushing away a mere friend or acquaintance who was in need, nevermind my partner and lover.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 8:12:11 PM

Shadow-tiger

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After reading through most of this, I'm of the mind that it's something that should have been considered.. but there was precedence for expecting what you did, so it leads me to one question.

Why was this time different for him?
In other words, why did it bother him to give you care when he's done it before? What was different?

If you can get an answer to that you may figure out what caused this whole state you're in. There has been quite a bit of good advice as well, so I won't repeat it except for one thing. Take time to step back, get your feet under you again and your head straight.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 8:16:03 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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A friend of mine, her bf got it in his head to do a 3 some with me and his girl, then god all kinds of bent out of shape and jealous in all kinds of ways when his girl enjoyed the sexual attention I lavished on her so much, He even got jealous when I suggested stuff that didn't put his dick directly into the mix.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

As long as he said, 'poly is great, and it doesn't matter if you have more partners than I do': most men think a threesome is mff, and most poly relationships implode when someone gets jealous: the difference between fantasy and reality.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 8:26:15 PM

Toppingfrmbottom

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Did any one read where she said SHE DIDN'T WANT THEM TO SHE WANTED HER TOP TO?

Geeze, every one is like it was your friends job they played with you. They would have, but she asked for her BF TO DO IT.

Can every one stop saying where were the friends? She explained many times they would have but she requested to go to her room thinking her bf would be there for her.

Sorry for the caps lock which equates shouting I know, she's said clearly many times something and people are still saying comments about it was the friends job, why didn't they and such.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 8:29:13 PM

newprofile2010

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadow-tiger

After reading through most of this, I'm of the mind that it's something that should have been considered.. but there was precedence for expecting what you did, so it leads me to one question.

Why was this time different for him?
In other words, why did it bother him to give you care when he's done it before? What was different?

If you can get an answer to that you may figure out what caused this whole state you're in. There has been quite a bit of good advice as well, so I won't repeat it except for one thing. Take time to step back, get your feet under you again and your head straight.

The only things different were

- that I had a more physically incapacitating reaction than previous times. I've been clingy and needed to lie down after playing with him, and he's been there with the after care each and every time for that, but hadn't been clumsy and shocky like this time.

- that it was in a public dungeon instead of a private get together at our friends home. I'd never played in "public" before, and because it was out of town and an "event" atmosphere for some reason I felt more comfortable than I normally do.

- there was a male involved (although so peripherally that it's almost laughable that this be the issue). I've played with a female friend of ours, but never with any men. This man is a mutual friend of ours, and has been in a poly network with my boyfriend on two different occasions (small world). Hmmm. His statement of "It's not my responsibility to clean up X's mess" was not directed at our female friend that topped me. It was directed at our male friend that provided the rope, toys, and second set of hands on a few occasions.

Even is it was insecurity, fear, etc, that drove the response, that still doesn't make dropping the ball when I needed the basics ok. Seriously, glass of water and a blanket, that was all. It doesn't fill me with trust to think that next time his emotional issues rear their head in a crisis situation he'll be unpredictable.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 8:38:24 PM

newprofile2010

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

The way you described your relationship it sounds like you are in a committed situation, he is your dom, your boyfriend, your friend and your lover. He gave his permission for you to play with others without him present. That should also mean that as your dominant, he should give a shit if something negative came from the experience that he gave his permission for you to have.

You came back to him in a fucked up state. You are his sub and girlfriend and lover, he is your dominant. Regardless of WHY you came home fucked up, you were fucked up and needed his help. He not only wasn't there to help you, but he went to the other extreme of being cold to you, telling you to get your hands off of him, telling you to get your own water etc etc. Sorry, but I don't care if someone is merely my friend, my man, my lover, whatever, if I care about someone and they come back fucked from the experience, whether sub drop, drunk, injured, needy in some way, I'm getting out of bed and doing what I can to help this person that I supposedly care about. That's priority number one. If I were in his shoes as your dominant, after that was taken care of, I would have re-thunk my decision to let you go off and do this, and discussed it the next day after things for you had settled down. And since he has the authority and he gave you his blessing, he should be willing to step up to the plate if his decision left you fucked up and in need of support.

It sounds to me like deep down he did not want you to play, and was resentful of the whole thing. I really can't imagine even pushing away a mere friend or acquaintance who was in need, nevermind my partner and lover.

We are in a serious, committed relationship. We're in the same house at least three nights a week, have a garden (I know, but plants equate commitment to me because they need months to grow), and -I thought- care deeply for one another.

In the year we've been together I've had too much to drink twice. Each time he's been considerate during, and mildly mocking after (that's totally ok, I would do the same thing). He rubs my back when I have cramps, brings me tea on winter mornings when the heater makes me cough like an asthmatic, reassures me when I'm full of self-doubt right before a business meeting. This event makes me question whether I really know him.

Deep down he did NOT want me to play, that much I've been able to figure out. I'm used to relationships that have clear and direct communication. Hell, if he had told me no I wouldn't have liked it but I would have stayed in the room and watched a movie or whatever he wanted to do.

It's given me a lot to think about.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 8:41:53 PM

newprofile2010

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom

Did any one read where she said SHE DIDN'T WANT THEM TO SHE WANTED HER TOP TO?

Geeze, every one is like it was your friends job they played with you. They would have, but she asked for her BF TO DO IT.

Can every one stop saying where were the friends? She explained many times they would have but she requested to go to her room thinking her bf would be there for her.

Sorry for the caps lock which equates shouting I know, she's said clearly many times something and people are still saying comments about it was the friends job, why didn't they and such.

Thanks :)

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 8:45:48 PM

Shadow-tiger

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Alright, this looks to me like some observations made by yourself and possibly others. I was thinking that the question should have been directed at him, preferably to get a feel for what was going on in his head and his mood that night.

If that's already been done, then my apologies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: newprofile2010

Even is it was insecurity, fear, etc, that drove the response, that still doesn't make dropping the ball when I needed the basics ok. Seriously, glass of water and a blanket, that was all. It doesn't fill me with trust to think that next time his emotional issues rear their head in a crisis situation he'll be unpredictable.

Speaking as someone who's big on taking care of someone, I can see how it should be such a small thing to offer the glass of water, a towel and some distraction while you recover. Most of the time I'm sweet, nice, caring, all that good stuff. And yet now and then I can be the grumpiest, most inconsiderate ass who'd just as soon wish someone dead as give them the time of the day.

It comes down to timing, mood, whatever might have set me off.. which might just be a moment of stress combined with being woken up. Thing is, it may have been any number of things. Hence my wondering what his side of it was.

Interesting how something like how a question is phrased can change the answer too.

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RE: Grudgingly given aftercare - long post - 8/10/2010 8:46:07 PM

newprofile2010

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

I want to make it clear that I have never done any BDSM apart from extremely light basically vanilla stuff, so I have never experienced sub drop. However something someone said made me think about this from a different angle.

If I have gone out on a drunken binge with friends then come home and collapsed drunkenly I have expected my current partner to look after me then. In the morning the shouting and complaints can start and I will apologise profusely but at the time no matter how inconvenient it is if they care about me then they will do what is needed to make me safe and cared for. If for whatever reason he hasn’t then I look at it as he simply doesn’t care enough about me to worry about my well being and consider the relationship over. In turn I will look after him if the situation is reversed, and trust me it is usually the other way around I have cleaned up many more times than been cleaned up after.

I know in the UK we look at drinking differently than people in the US, but the situation is the same, you go off with friends have a great time they help you get home and then dump the shaking unthinking mess in the house.

It doesn’t matter that it’s your fault you got into such a state, the situation needs to be dealt with, and if they don’t care enough about you to help even if they are angry, then they simply don’t care enough about you. Some people won’t want to clean up “other people’s messes” that’s fine, say goodbye and seek out someone who cares more for you than whose fault it is because in the back of your mind there will always be the knowledge that there will always be another time, maybe something different and maybe not even your fault but the result will most likely be the same.

Cheryl

I see it that way as well. If I had a pattern of doing this and he had stated his wishes that i not do it again, then it would be a different story. But yeah, I've had friends that got a little too wasted at a party and needed to be driven home, or friends that had a terrible breakup and needed to come over RIGHT NOW, even though right now is 1am. I need someone like that to be my friend, and if I can't rely on him like that then he isn't. But still, no decisions for a week. My brain is still crappy.

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