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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 3:21:57 PM

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Is there a reason you didn't call the cops? Maybe if the guy were arrested for something like this, he wouldn't try it again on someone else.

I also echo the comments about trusting too soon.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 3:41:14 PM

Lairaimmortelle

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The third time an ass hat has over stepped boundaries. First one we talked for a month, met up, went out a few times, and then he tried to take control. "You will do this blah blah blah." Control is given, never taken. I make it very clear when talking with a potential dom. This is what I like, this is what I don't like. The second one started stalking. This third guy, as wrong as he was, I can admit this, I was dumb enough to ignore the little red flags and alarms going off in my head. Just, what is cooth upon the first meeting of a dom?

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 3:50:50 PM

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uumm...why would you leave with him instead of driving your own vehicle? Why not say "ok I'll meet you at the bar".

I'm going to guess you haven't gone out on dates much. Sorry but when a guy wants to ply you up with liquor and then "forgets" something at his house it's red flags that he wants to fuck you.

As to what's too far or not too far for a first date, there is no one view. If you're both attracted to each other and you want to fuck each other's brains out then go for it. If you don't want to do that then be clear up front and don't go to his house no matter what he forgot....oh and alcohol on a first date if you don't want it to go past coffee or dinner is a huge no-no.

Good luck on your next meeting with someone.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 3:51:15 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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I don't think you were stupid. If I look back on my past situations, I can say that I've had a few asshats as well.

What would I consider couth? Someone who is honest and forthright regarding their desires and expectations. Obviously this guy wasn't.

It troubles me when we have to warn people to NOT be trusting, although it seems to be the case. Probably where I keep messing up myself. I prefer to trust people until they give me reason not to, and honestly - this tendancy of mine has put me in my own unsavory predicaments.

If it helps, you are in good company and I don't in any way consider myself stupid - nor do I think you should be that hard on yourself either.

WinD

(in reply to Lairaimmortelle)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 4:12:19 PM

lizi

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This was brought up earlier but whatever you'd accept for first date behavior in general is what is couth. If you were out on a date how would you like to be treated? That is what you accept then. It was also brought up that if you want to cover all the bases then you bring it up before meeting ie...we will have coffee and pleasant conversation and then say goodbye before returning to our respective homes. I have outlined such things before going out on vanilla dates and done it in a charming, inoffensive way that was always accepted well. Men generally respond well to thinking that it will take some finesse and effort to win you over and if they don't then you dont want that man anyway and it's nice that he outed himself quickly to save you time. Anyone who pulls the fake crap, manipulates, pushes or doesn't play nice can be kicked to the curb asap.

I have to agree that you may be giving out some type of mixed signal or lack of boundaries that men are picking up on and then going for the gusto thinking that you are in line with that. Not to say that they are ok in doing that, they're not, but as it was said previously if it's happened numerous times then examine what you are doing to have this type of thing happen as a result.

In general when I date I set expectations up before I ever meet someone. I meet for coffee on a first meet if possible, it's casual and not a huge time investment. Setting up for an afternoon coffee says right off the bat that this isn't a big deal - so hopefully no expectations on his part for a night of sex after he treated you to a big dinner. Get to the coffee early and buy your own, pick out where you want to sit, somewhere where it is pleasantly busy. Say goodbye at the end of the coffee, no going for drinks somewhere else. There might be a friendly hug at the end or even if a kiss if you want it but the time of day and the venue really limit him to being hands off.

Before you ever meet let your prospective man know that you're not easy and there will not be D/s or freebies until you have made your choice of submitting to him. I told dates that i had an important decision to make, that I'd love to get to know them as people, that I was talking/meeting several people, and that I'd see how things went. Then I did coffees and graduated to activity based meetings (biking, bowling, walking, etc) to suss out how I felt about these men. It's tricky because BDSM has a lot of sexuality involved in it and yes...given a choice most guys are going to start with sexual questions and conversations right from the start. I start setting up boundaries then by not indulging in discussing explicit things until I get to know if I am actually interested in someone which I dont know until I've met them.

(in reply to Lairaimmortelle)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 4:31:02 PM

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To some men, smiling is a signal. My ex told me once that I had to stop smiling because men were taking it as a hello, shall I spread my legs for you? I watched men in bars for years and many thought a woman being friendly was a yes, yes, please do me, I am tired of trying to get off shampooing my hair.

Just like when we say no thanks to men in emails, no means yes to some of them or no means, slam dunk that fussy bitch.

While we have to be careful and examine ourselves, I think it is a mistake to blame a victim for some idiot and his actions. Can someone run into a bunch of idiots right in a row? Well, look in your email box and tell me if that can happen. Just because we are at a site like this, many men think it is the go ahead, lose all social graces and brain cells and let the hungry cock lead.

Own what is yours to own, but don't take on what isn't your own.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 11/12/2010 4:32:29 PM >

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 4:41:52 PM

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quote:

To some men, smiling is a signal.

And some guys believe that one is 'not a submissive' unless they can fuck you on the first date. For example:

quote:

"Lets see how good of a sub you are..." as he reached down my shirt.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 4:57:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: clitwhipscream

You should not have agreed to go anywhere with him.

When he asked if you wanted to go with him, and you agreed, the chase was on.

A man could easily have taken the acquiescence as a tacit agreement to play. But that would be his view, and it would never hold up in court.

quote:

All doms have a predator mind. That is why they are so fucking hot. It is up to you, the prey, to determine the rules for the game, and to make it clear when you are not playing.

Bullshit. As a Dom, yes, I want to have a woman. But I don't break the law and my own code of honor for it.

quote:

Consent dosent just happen once, it happens step by step, he led, you followed him, he led a little more, you followed him again. Become consious of your miniute to miniute choices. DONT drink on a first meeting. DONT ever leave your non alcholic drink out of your sight. If you dont want raped, dont be raper bait.

I disagree with the word "consent". She agreed to do things that signaled that she was interested in pursuing a relationship, not in getting assaulted on the first date. And you DO realize that alcoholic drinks can be spiked too, right?

quote:

I would not call that assault, not by a long shot. Unless he chased you, drugged you, refused to let you leave the house tied you up in the basement ect., after you clocked him. Because that was his first signal that you werent playing yet.

Disagree. It would be considered assault in any court.

quote:

Next time, dont leave your original meeting space. If you decide to go somewhere else, you get in your car and meet him at the new location. NEVER get into a car with a stranger. You can bend over and smack yourself for that one right there. Good girl.

Agree.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 5:52:11 PM

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No. You did the right thing. No matter who you are, there's one rule in life you should always keep in mind when dealing with other people.

Set boundaries - and ruthlessly enforce them.

You'll know when you meet someone worthy of your time and attention. They'll naturally inspire trust, will let you give rather than take and won't try and force the pace. They'll be adept at reading your responses and will know whether you feel safe or not.

The time to push boundaries is once trust has been established and you're happy for them to enter your mind space. Until then, it's a feeling out process and a negotiation. As a sub - and a woman - you have more to lose, so in that sense, it's your doubts and fears which must be assuaged.

Listen to your instincts. Don't be hyper-suspicious but read their actions and watch if those actions match their words. Those whose words are congruent with their actions will be more likely to prove worthy of your time.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 6:03:37 PM

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Uncooth for sure. <sigh> Darlin' if you join me for coffee and beignets, my hands will go nowhere but the table without a certain invitation.

Anyway, Lairaimmortelle, I'll think of you when I pass the corset shop at the Renfaire in Hammond.

Stefan

(in reply to Awareness)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 6:10:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lairaimmortelle

I've had an encounter with an individual, a Dom. Met on here, chatted quite a bit, and met up for the first time last night. All fine and dandy. We discussed a few more things over coffee and bingets (SP?) I was asked if I wanted to go for a ride elsewhere in the city to his favorite bar, no problem, a few drinks would be nice. Oh wait he forgot something at his house, "it will take me just a moment, please step inside"

I would've gone home after coffee to see if I still thought I liked him them next day.

I wouldn't have gotten in his car.

I definately wouldn't have gone inside his house.

quote:

Again, no problem, not until he came up behind me, "Lets see how good of a sub you are..." as he reached down my shirt. I chicken winged that SOB and left.

He got off easy with you, because I probably would have decked him.

quote:

I mean he's the third one to try and pull some shit like that. I'm done.

That's because many men think submissive means stupid and easy. It's also because it's easy to coerce someone who is eager to please by saying "you're not really submissive if..."

Honestly, best advice is be right up front and say "I'm not going to play or have sex with you until I'm comfortable" and stick with it. Ignore the guys that tell you that you're not a "real submissive" if you won't do what they want.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 11/12/2010 6:13:40 PM >

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/12/2010 8:16:13 PM

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OP:
Don't blame yourself--chalk it up as a near-miss--something that could have gone terribly, terribly wrong but fortunately you responded accordingly and did the right thing.
so your lessons learned--as said here:
Meet someplace in public, well-lit and well-attended, during daytime hours. (coffee hours are a good bet)
Don't get in his car.
Don't go back to his place. If he needs to get something, order another cuppa joe and say: great. I'll wait here 15 minutes until you get back.
Don't give him your address
Don't give him your last name until you're sure you feel comfortable

But DO:
continue to trust your instincts
maintain your healthy boundaries
protect your body any way you see fit. (You do not have to be polite or respectful if he violates your boundaries.)
be optimistic. Not all men are complete idiots. Just about 85%.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/13/2010 1:26:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: clitwhipscream

You should not have agreed to go anywhere with him.

When he asked if you wanted to go with him, and you agreed, the chase was on.

All doms have a predator mind. That is why they are so fucking hot. It is up to you, the prey, to determine the rules for the game, and to make it clear when you are not playing.

Consent dosent just happen once, it happens step by step, he led, you followed him, he led a little more, you followed him again. Become consious of your miniute to miniute choices. DONT drink on a first meeting. DONT ever leave your non alcholic drink out of your sight. If you dont want raped, dont be raper bait.

I would not call that assault, not by a long shot. Unless he chased you, drugged you, refused to let you leave the house tied you up in the basement ect., after you clocked him. Because that was his first signal that you werent playing yet.

Next time, dont leave your original meeting space. If you decide to go somewhere else, you get in your car and meet him at the new location. NEVER get into a car with a stranger. You can bend over and smack yourself for that one right there. Good girl.

This times two.

I'll add that it sounds like this guy missed a few steps in the dance, though. As a man who's successfully pulled this stunt off more than a few times... I'd give him demerits on style and execution, not on what he was trying to achieve.

Most guys in the game get a feel for when a girl will go to your house, versus when she wants to go home with you. But it can be very hard sometimes to figure that out; sometimes you just gotta try your luck and find out.

As for him being a sexual predator... yes. He is. EVERYONE is. Men, women, tops and bottoms alike. He chose the role of the aggressor; and this is a necessary role. Frequently involving misdirection, subterfuge, and hidden motives, and when it's done right - like by me - it's fucking awesome for the girl in question. In this case, it sucked hard. But it wasn't because he was wrong to try. He was just an inept at it.

---

Edited to add: Sadly, DarkSteven is right about one thing. This would be considered an assault in court, if you ever got him on record admitting to it.

You could send him to jail for a long time.

And after he got out, he'd be branded a 'sexual predator' for life, and have a very challenging time getting a job... a home... or ever having a life again.

Imagine this: you now have the power to rape that man sideways. And it's totally legal. Welcome to America, where your right to not be felt up is strenuously guarded.

Hope it makes you feel really fucking protected. The price for your protection is high enough that I hope someone's getting something from it.

Oh, and once the police have evidence of suspicion, it's out of your hands. You couldn't change your mind if you tried. Dude's headed for a life of hell, sister. All you've got to do is make the call, and get him to admit on a recording that he violated you. Hell, all he has to do is apologize, how ironic is that?

< Message edited by DMFParadox -- 11/13/2010 1:54:22 AM >

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/13/2010 2:07:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lairaimmortelle

The third time an ass hat has over stepped boundaries. First one we talked for a month, met up, went out a few times, and then he tried to take control. "You will do this blah blah blah." Control is given, never taken. I make it very clear when talking with a potential dom. This is what I like, this is what I don't like. The second one started stalking. This third guy, as wrong as he was, I can admit this, I was dumb enough to ignore the little red flags and alarms going off in my head. Just, what is cooth upon the first meeting of a dom?

Funny. I had a sub try very hard to convince me once that control must be taken, and that I was wrong for wanting her to show clearer signs that she was a willing participant.

My god, the mixed signals we get sometimes.

There is no right or wrong, really. Just convention.

Pain, and pleasure, are illusions of the mind, and we all live in samsara. We, every human on this earth, wrestle with our judgements of each other, because to not do so - to truly accept all things - means we'd have to face the void, and that is too frightening for most.

tl;dr I'm sorry you've had a rough time. Fuck it, I'm going to bed.

_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to Lairaimmortelle)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/13/2010 6:11:16 AM

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quote:

Pain, and pleasure, are illusions of the mind, and we all live in samsara. We, every human on this earth, wrestle with our judgements of each other, because to not do so - to truly accept all things - means we'd have to face the void, and that is too frightening for most.

samsara (the continuous but random drift of passions, desires, emotions and experiences, ie. Life)

BDSM for me is about playing with all those things.

Mytery: Without it we are like children on a creek with sticks, and nothing to poke at.

I think that is one of my facinations with rape play. You can get into serious legal trouble no matter what was agreed to. That top must walk the edge right next to me, in fact, Id say a damn sight closer.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/13/2010 8:09:10 AM

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I actually did meet a few in here who, even though the rest of the meet & greet "date" was benign, when the date was over and we were separating and going home, they turned the brief hug and peck on the cheek into grab, squeeze & twist. And they all justified it as "Well, you say you're a submissive" or something like that. They said they thought we expected that kind of treatment because we're from Collar Me and they are happy to oblige.

And, when I got home, there were the obligatory "You're Not A True Submissive" emails waiting for me. Blah blah blah.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/13/2010 10:33:11 AM

Lairaimmortelle

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Which is exactly why I didn't call. I have a messed up sense of honor, but as wrong as he was, I too put myself in that situation. I don't want to fuck up someone's life, they can do that themselves.

(in reply to DMFParadox)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/13/2010 12:45:45 PM

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If she was sexually groped, as she was - without consent, as she was - then that qualifies as sexual assault. Assault is unwanted touching. If it's done in sexual areas, and the breasts do qualify as that, then it's sexual assault.

It wasn't date rape since she did fight him off and escaped. But that was his intention.

The op's fault was in agreeing to go somewhere else, in his car. Instead of saying "no thanks". Lots of guys think sub equals easy lay, sexual promiscuity. Perhaps the op needs to mention this during preliminary conversations, that she's been attacked before and isn't going to do anything except spend half an hour in a coffee bar the first time, and not much else on subsequent dates until a relationship has been established. And then stick to her boundaries.

However there are no rules for when you have sex. I've had one night stands in the past where I couldn't even remember his name the next day. I've also had lengthy conversations, establishing a friendship and a great deal of compatibility before I even met. At different times in my life, different things have worked for me.

OP, you need to decide what works for you and what you need and stick to your guns.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 11/13/2010 12:48:29 PM >

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/13/2010 2:01:33 PM

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For me, getting in the car with anyone the first time I met them is an incredible no-no. Of course, I am insane, so I won't even ride with friends to a bar because I have to have my escape vehicle, my lovely red truck.

I just refuse to be anywhere that I can not leave immediately, if I choose to. Funny thing is, since I adopted that attitude several years ago, I have never actually left anywhere early.

Take care of you hon, no one else is going to do it as well as you can.

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yep

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/13/2010 3:12:08 PM

agirl

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There could have been enough signals in your own behaviour that indicated that you were willing to take a risk or two......... one being that you were willing to go off with someone you had just met, two, that you went into his house on invitation.

These aren't the actions of someone who is wary and not willing to risk. You spoke about true submission, trust and respect .......but if this was the first time you met him, you really can't have had much clue if he is after those things and not after a bit of a sexual fling. You didn't know he was a dom, you only knew he called himself a dom. And he doesn't know YOU either.

His approach may have worked quite brilliantly with girls behaving in exactly the same way you did and they may have been very pleased about it too.. I can understand quite easily how your willingness to dash off could be misinterpreted.

* Would you like to come in for coffee* can mean exactly that......but it OFTEN means * Would you like to come in for a shag*.

DMFParadox...quote...
As for him being a sexual predator... yes. He is. EVERYONE is. Men, women, tops and bottoms alike. He chose the role of the aggressor; and this is a necessary role. Frequently involving misdirection, subterfuge, and hidden motives, and when it's done right - like by me - it's fucking awesome for the girl in question. In this case, it sucked hard. But it wasn't because he was wrong to try. He was just an inept at it.
unquote

agirl

(in reply to Lairaimmortelle)

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