RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say?

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/14/2010 9:23:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: clitwhipscream
That is what makes us different from vanilla people. If I wanted a man who would treat me like a lady, I would be on match dot com (can’t stand that site).
I wouldn't be with someone that didn't treat me like a lady on the first date.

I have a friend who is non-D/s and who dates from Match quite a bit. More often than not, the men she meets up with are anything but gentlemen. It's a misnomer to think Match.com is full of men who would treat someone like a lady.

People are people. The only difference between me and my vanilla friends is that I need the man to have authority over me, within my relationship. That does not translate into a need to be aggressively sexually dominated on the first outing. That is a false assumption about us "non-vanilla" types.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/14/2010 11:55:04 AM

Lairaimmortelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

quote:

ORIGINAL: clitwhipscream

Doms dont play fair. Some lie, some steal, some cheat, some just withhold information (strong silent type). Deal with it.

Is this what is to be expected and accepted of those who identify as dominant?

Is it really wrong to expect more?

I could not have said it better myself. Those that I do meet wonder why I'm so bitter anymore. Here ya go. bold and underlined.

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/14/2010 12:47:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lairaimmortelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

quote:

ORIGINAL: clitwhipscream

Doms dont play fair. Some lie, some steal, some cheat, some just withhold information (strong silent type). Deal with it.

Is this what is to be expected and accepted of those who identify as dominant?

Is it really wrong to expect more?

I could not have said it better myself. Those that I do meet wonder why I'm so bitter anymore. Here ya go. bold and underlined.

Cop out.

It's too easy to paint a picture with such a broad stroke...too safe to say this is why you're bitter...too blind to acknowledge your responsibility to yourself...too much of a cop out.

You're bitter because you've met assholes and incompatible men...guess what, you're responsible for what and who you allow into your life.

The guy you mentioned in your original post, according to how you presented the story, was just looking for some chick gullible enough to believe the "if you were a true submissive you would...." line of bs. But....

You agreed to get in his car and go for a drive. You agreed to go inside his house while he picked up whatever he left there (why not wait in the car?). You need to accept responsibility for you lack of judgement with regards to those two choices (keeping in mind the 2 other times you've mentioned similar situations taking place) and learn from your mistakes.

You meet for coffee. Not a "dom" and a "sub", but a man and a woman swapping stories over a cup of joe. If you choose to go anywhere else with him, accept the reality of what that can entail. Don't leave your common sense on the kitchen counter as you walk out to met someone new.

My response to the quote above that you bolded and underlined was said in complete sarcasm because I DO expect more for anyone I meet regardless of what they identify as. The question is...will you settle for being 'prey' on the first date, with no prior agreement of roles and expectations of future play, for any guy who throws the word 'dom' or 'master' in front of his name?

I suggest you take some time to figure out what you want from a partner...dominant or not...and figure out how to not get stuck in repeating old behaviors. Good luck.

(in reply to Lairaimmortelle)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/14/2010 2:01:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

..you know I'm right. You submissive women out there reading this know it's true. You hunters out there know it's true.

When we fail to see prospective partners as human, we lose our humanity. A date is a date, whether we are kinky or not. To think giving yourself the title of 'dominant' negates the rights of another because they have labeled themselves submissive is as wrong as rape .
Submissive equals prey/victim??? Not the way I see it, not in my world.

Greetings,

The reality is a Dom/sub date is not the same date in a vanilla relationship in the making . Trust me or not.

It's because we are not dating here in the traditional sense. Safe and sane? The reality is it is a great slogan and we do pay lip service to that and even talk about safe words but I've never run into a submissive that I could trust to utter a safe word (unless G_ddamn is a safe word) and many or even most are quite capable of following the lead of a Dom they may have just met. After all, being submissive in the BDSM or Gorean world does not mean you are not aggressive or adventuresome in following your desires. It is in their nature. So, the OP is not unusual in what she did when she got into his car and followed where he led on the first date. All submissives I have met real time followed where I led on the first date. I am not unique in that experience.

Another reality is the prey dynamic does figure quite strong in dating here and to a more "under the covers" extent in munches and a much bigger than life extent in most Lifestyle Clubs and dungeons (I said "dungeons", think about it).

Reality is also that "the prey", the female submissive, is not less human or of low quality or treated as "less human" for following their primal desires and instincts. Quite the opposite. In fact, I submit to you that they are more human than most in doing so.

Finally, I suggest these realities are known by most submissves who actually meet and date Doms from here and FL or in Lifestyle clubs across this big world. They know the prey dynamic is very much there from minute one even if only subconsciously. It is why they are here and not on Match.com. It is what they want. It's what we want.

Respectfully,

Arturas

Arturas' passage bolded and italicized to indicate the part I disagree with most.

There's a HUGE difference in leading if I lead the conversation or order for a woman, and if I grab them and try to force myself on them. It's called manners, protocol, civilized behavior... you get the idea.

Being a Dom does NOT mean that I follow my own rules everywhere and reject ethical and for that matter lawful behavior. Saying that I'm a Dom is not carte Blanche for boorish and criminal behavior.

For that matter, I have actually met real live submissives who I did not choose to lead on the first date. And I've known some who were more than ready to give themselves over to a Dom who had proven himself to be a match for them, but not until then. The idea that a submissive is submissive to just any ol' self-called Dom is just as silly as the idea of the Dom who strides through life, barking commands to all objects, animate and inanimate alike.

OP, some of the viewpoints you have been given imply that a Dom and a sub are just that, and that that dynamic trumps relating to each other as people. I disagree, strongly.

The truth is exactly as I wrote it. The quote you disagree with most is: "I am not unique in that experience" but I fail to see why you would disagree. Your comment that submissives do agree to be led once a Dom proves his match does not contrast with my statement. Many of us can consistantly obtain that power transfer on the first meeting becase we are real, we work very hard to master ourselves and develop our minds, our bodies and spirits into that needed to be a Dom, a master who deserves that type of reaction from submissives.

I am very much not unique in that regard. There are many other great doms online here who are seen in the clubs practicing their lifestyle, their skill sets, enjoying their lives, enjoying the predator/prey dynamic; hunting. If you are not, then I can see why you'd not agree with the way it is.

The submissive clitwhipscream seems to know what is really going on offline. She is honest in her comments on this. I know many submissives here understand her posting and while they may not always meet a dom who they are ready to submit to the first meeting, they do indeed know it happens more than the well wishing posters here might believe, especially if they have been actively in this lifestyle for any amount of time.

Also, to be clear, leading a submissive female on the first meeting is NOT the same as grabbing her and forcing your will on her and I don't appreciate that false spin on my posting. A great dom knows how to read the submissive, even on the first meeting and lets be clear on this also, many submissives will let him know her desires if he deserves her interest.

Let me ask this in closing, just how many meetings must a submissive and prospective Dom have until she can follow his lead? Ha! The answer is "as many as it takes". That is "one" many times for great submissives and great Doms. It is always for me. Get over it.

Arturas

< Message edited by Arturas -- 11/14/2010 2:04:35 PM >

(in reply to DarkSteven)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/14/2010 3:28:28 PM

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I'm meeting a guy from CM in a couple of days. He's here on business. We talked about expectations - thank goodness he brought it up. I say that because I'd forgotten that people presume that roles are sometimes expected. He said something like you know it's just dinner, and nothing else is going to hapen unless we agree on it. I laughed because I have no interest in "something else" and told him, yes that's true. I also will go home on my own, I'm choosing the restaurant, and it's in my city. Nothing will happen because I am not interested in him in that way. I haven't checked him out besides a few cmails, looking at his profile, etc. -just - hey, he's in Seoul on business... etc.

There is another guy who has written me who is going to be in Seoul on business too - want to have dinner? I checked out his forum posts, thought he was an ass, and declined.

He can lead all he wants. I won't follow him. However, there are a number of wo/men that I've met or chatted with here that I would follow their lead in a heartbeat - because they've proven themselves to me enough that I'd feel ok with them making a few of the decisions (of course I think they'd prob leave it to me since I'm the one who lives here).

I'm not sure if this is on topic, but meh. Have a good day, folks.
sunshine

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/14/2010 7:57:54 PM

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I don't very often actually meet too many folks, mainly because I'm here more for the boards. But those that I have met, it's on MY terms. A daylight meeting for coffee in a public place, and I don't leave with them. We go our seperate ways in the parking lot. I am very upfront about the fact that I am not meeting them for play, there will be nothing more than just a friendly meeting to see if we click.

You dodged a bullet here, sweetie.....three times if what you say is correct. Anyone can say anything online......but the tell for me is whether or not the man takes me seriously when I explain the ground rules, and actually abides by them without trying to "trick" me or sideline the rules of engagement. Make the rules, make them clear to him, and stick to your guns. When I meet someone, it is as a woman, and he's a man, he's not a dom, and I'm not a sub. We may discuss things related to our desires, but it's still totally vanilla. That's not to say I haven't made mistakes...the rules have evolved because of the mistakes I've made. YOU are the one that needs to take the responsibility for your own safety. Don't get into cars with strangers, and certainly, DON'T go into their houses! Pay attention to those red flags that pop up....listening to your guts will only work in your favor.

Also, just a thought...if you're going to try to carry mace/pepper spray, or a concealed weapon, make sure you have the balls to use it if you pull it.....more women have been injured/killed with their own weapons than people think.

< Message edited by soul2share -- 11/14/2010 7:59:49 PM >

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/14/2010 8:54:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: clitwhipscream
All doms have a predator mind. That is why they are so fucking hot.

Wow... whodathunk. And here I thought it had to do with my ability to get people to obey me. And for the record, I very much DO play fair.... that is exactly why people trust me enough to obey.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 11/14/2010 8:59:23 PM >

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(in reply to clitwhipscream)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/14/2010 10:47:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: blushingflower

I cannot believe the number of people implying that somehow this is your fault. If he had raped you, would it have been your fault? No, So him groping you without your consent isn't your fault either. It's unfortunate that your creep radar didn't go off sooner, especially with his attempts to get you alone (in a car, in his house, etc), but he's the one who made the active choice to touch you without your consent. In most states, touching someone without their consent is assault, plain and simple. And if someone is ostensibly trying to create a relationship based on trust, why would you violate that trust on the first date?

If this is the third time this has happened to you, I wonder if maybe you're missing signals about who these guys are and what they're expecting. Sometimes, we think we're on the same page, but we're not. And sometimes we send of the "helpless clueless newbie" vibe (even when we're not) and creeps try to take advantage of it. Or maybe you've just had a run of bad luck.

Hello blushing,
I didn't see anyone implying it was her fault that he touched her. I saw people reminding her of her responsibility for herself - which by the way is exactly what you've done too.

Come on! Would anyone tell a woman - sure it's ok to get into a stranger's car, go into his house. Sure! DO it. It's not a problem as long as he says the secret password. Only good people know how to say "I'm a dom." You'll be fine.

If this has happened to her 3 times (I didn't actually see that, but several people have spoken of it), then the reality is that she *is* doing something that is not quite kosher.

Look, creeps choose their victims. That's what he did. She is responsible for not being a victim whenever possible. Surely you don't think that it is acceptable for her to get into a stranger's car and go to a stranger's house when it's *obvious* he's lying to her.

She needs to grow some faith in her instints. She needs to learn to listen to her gut. Now that she is aware that she *does* have some responsibility in the situation... because SHE DOES... maybe she will look at her own behavior and not put herself in dangerous situations.

I remember reading a story once about a donkey that was blocking the road and no one could get by. Finally, the wise person of the town showed up and everyone was relieved. YAY! Someone who will solve this problem and show us how to get the donkey out of our way. What did the wise person do? Went around the block and walked down a different road.

To the OP: May I recommend a book for you? The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker. Read it. It's well worth the trip to your library or local bookstore.

best,
sunshine

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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to blushingflower)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/14/2010 10:57:57 PM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

............To the OP: May I recommend a book for you? The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker. Read it. It's well worth the trip to your library or local bookstore.

best,
sunshine

Yes Yes Yes!!

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 4:11:51 AM

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I pick from my friend pool (do not be so shy, you would be delighted to know how many of your friends are happy to play). Generally people I have known for years, or people who have been 'vetted' by someone I have known for years. Because even a few dates wont cut it. It can take me two years just to grow a crush on someone. Main thing is to stick with locals who are concerned with thier reputation and to form small groups of playmates so that those reputations can be transparant. Thats why sites like Fetlife are so important. It puts peoples reputations out there, and collects local individuals into small groups. That will increase safety considerably.

To be fair, I did a lot of stupid shit when I first went leather. And it doesnt help when there is no nearby understanding friend to turn to whom you can ask these kinds of questions. Lessons shall be repeated until learned and having a mentor can make that a safer process.

But to say I am prey, is not to say I think I am some helpless rabbit with two broken legs now, just waiting for any old slobbery wolf to come along, I am cagy as fuck. I watch myself, I know where I am. I have working outdoor survival and self defense skills. I dress for the weather, only partake with intention (dont drink in iffy situations). I consider mindfucking to be purely a mastabatory activity, and refuse to let any dom do it to me. I stick with friends when out and about or for fetish play, I enjoy the fact that I CAN run in the alleys all alone at night, becasue I live in a safe town with people who love me looking out for me, and I look like a man walking at night anyway. I put myself here, because in the end, I am my own best Top and I know what is good for me.

The hunter that can catch me, has to be able to top the one in my head first. This is not at all condusive to a sence of entitlement and you can bet your favorite leather boots on that one.

< Message edited by clitwhipscream -- 11/15/2010 4:49:05 AM >

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 4:29:20 AM

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How do you know when you are attracted to an 'undercover' dom/e? Someone in your vanilla life, and you like them, but you are not sure if s/he is 'of your kind'?

You know those 'butterflies'...

They will make you nervous.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 4:34:55 AM

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Don't be stingy. Pass the bowl.

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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 4:57:04 AM

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Here, you take the green...

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 5:07:36 AM

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IMO this is a matter of age and a sign of the times. First, to the OP, there are a lot of things you could and should do a little differently to ward off these kind of idiots. Most of the suggestions have already been posted, but I will add a couple. Get to know the guy a little online and over the phone before you go on an actual date. I am not suggesting that you spend six months chatting and talking before you meet, but a couple weeks or more is a good idea. Make sure the guy has given you verifiable information about himself... where he lives, where he works, what he does, what his family is like, stuff like that. If he feels that by asking such questions you are being too intrusive, then he has given himself away as a poser. After all, if he is serious, then he WANTS you to know about him. On the other hand, if he is a poser, then all he sees you as is a cyber-slut who exists for his carnal desires only. A real man looking for a real relationship is proud of who he is and has nothing to hide (as he gets to know you.... he won't necessarily tell you everything about himself on the first conversation).

Next, keep in mind that real dominant men tend to be very protective of their submissives. They WANT her to feel safe. He will plan the first date around that premise. He will likely NOT try to engage your kinkier side on a first meeting... rather he will cautiously try to figure out if you are the real deal or some nutjob. He will also know that you are trying to figure out the same in him. If he is dominant... truly dominant, he will likely try to fix that first meeting in a place where he will seem to own the universe and everything in it; a restaurant where people know and like him, the race track if he spends a lot of time there, possibly a sports arena if he frequents it. In other words, he will pick a place that will create the right atmosphere for you to come away feeling he is something special.

Inviting you to ride alone in his car is a sign that he is ignorant... he should know that it will not empower you to feel comfortable in his presence. Asking you to go to his house is proof positive that he was an idiot. Don't be afraid to say no... ever. A real dom will understand, particularly on a first meeting. scratch that... a real dom wouldn't ask or suggest such a thing. Don't be afraid of pissing men off... until you are committed to him, he has NO rights to you whatsoecer. Oh, and something young ladies just don't seem to understand anymore.... when a guy buys you dinner or lunch or pays your way to an event.... you owe him polite table manners and interesting conversation, thats all.

(in reply to Lairaimmortelle)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 6:16:29 AM

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I am not suggesting that you spend six months chatting and talking before you meet...

I would suggest at least that long.

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 7:00:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: clitwhipscream

I am not suggesting that you spend six months chatting and talking before you meet...

I would suggest at least that long.

I might have said the same thing.... but I think too much chatting and telephone can be a bad thing too.... people are often very different in person than online or over the phone. Its really a shame to spend a year chatting only to find out there just isn't any chemistry face to face. A couple weeks of getting to know that someone isn't a complete whacko ought to be sufficient.... and some fact checking to make sure they aren't a liar and a phoney.

(in reply to clitwhipscream)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 8:05:34 AM

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quote:

Inviting you to ride alone in his car is a sign that he is ignorant... he should know that it will not empower you to feel comfortable in his presence.

I respect you even though that opinion calls me ignorant. It's an opinion that is text book.

Fortunately our lifestyle is not text book.

"Not text book" does not mean ignorant. Many here apparently assume these women are ignorant for doing what they do when being led by a Dom the first meeting. They are not. They know the dynamic here and knowing that they choose their best slut uniform and go to the club where they are nude in front of strangers, caged and helpless but safe under the gaze of the house or dungeon monitor; this still makes them adventurous and daring and perfectly safe and not ignorant.

So when they choose to get into a Dom's car after first meeting them they are also adventurous, daring but not ignorant because they do take precautions known by all here. They are not children that need to be reminded "not to talk to strangers". This happens all the time. It is not unnatural to our chosen paths. The OP is not unique in this regard and the Dom's do not consider themselves ignorant in inviting an intelligent submissive into their car. This is because, just as in the dungeon, they know full well she has taken precautions. There are still controls here. You know what they are.

In the real world we're Dom's and submissives and not children. We are not textbook by choice but these submissives do not just get into a car without taking some safety measures so let's not pretend they are ignorant and the Dom is ignorant for inviting her. The hunter is just doing what is natural and the prey likewise.

The prey still has claws.

Be well,
Arturas

< Message edited by Arturas -- 11/15/2010 8:06:02 AM >

(in reply to fellowtraveler)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 8:29:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

I respect you even though that opinion calls me ignorant. It's an opinion that is text book.

...

There are still controls here. You know what they are.

...

In the real world we're Dom's and submissives and not children. We are not textbook by choice but these submissives do not just get into a car without taking some safety measures so let's not pretend they are ignorant and the Dom is ignorant for inviting her.

The prey still has claws.

Be well,
Arturas

Arturas, I must respectfully disagree. In the first place, this is a site where anyone can post.... not just good and decent people. To make matters worse, a woman who claims to have been attacked by someone she met here is not going to be in a good position in court.... given the nature of the public perception of D/s. We DO need to be wary of people until we know them. That goes more for adults than children, IMO.

In the "vanilla" world, it is common for a man to pick a woman up in his car for a first date. I, however, would not recommend it for people meeting folks from this site for the first time. As a dominant man, I would not take a first time "date" in my car.... for one thing because I don't know what she will try to claim happened and for another because I want her to feel at ease. I will take control when she is comfortable, if that ever happens. If not... I will move on.

I will acknowledge that my post fell into the age-old trap of trying to claim that a "real" dom does this or does not do that. I apologize for that. I should have said that the act was ignorant and left it at that.

As for calling you personally ignorant, I have no knowledge of you and thus am not qualified to say one way or another. The act though, yeah, I would call it ignorant or at best naive. There again, I do things that others might well consider ignorant.

(in reply to Arturas)

RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 9:19:45 AM

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So we are prey and predator eh? Dominant is stronger because dominant is predator and seeking prey as our nature because damn, a dominant is most typically is a man right? Well, even a dominant man needs to watch for the female predator that may present as a submissive. He ought to think enough of himself, his family, life and career to protect himself from not just that predator that might do him physical harm or set him up for such. He better protect himself from what can happen if he drive's someone he doesn't know somewhere because being alone with her could lead to charges of all sorts of things that didn't really happen. There are women that can take a man down physically as well. Anyone can be taken down or out and I don't care what kind of instincts you might have, there is someone out there that can take you down and/or pick up or bring an equalizer. It's best to know someone a bit before you are vulnerable to them.

I believe that if someone is looking long term, to gain the trust of someone, they will act with caution and will consider that building trust is far better than responding to natural and physical rutting needs. If someone just wants to hunt and rut, they will typically just do what it takes to hunt and rut and call it their right by nature... that's what they do by nature, by god!

While I do enjoy a good hunt and rut, I know better than to allow that to guide me because the longer route to rutting is my thing. I know what can happen on both side of the rutting thing and sometimes it is not fun. I believe being strong in wisdom is going to do me far better in life all the way around than going with my instinct to hunt and rut.

If someone is wanting to hunt and rut and that is utmost on their mind, they will sometimes take less time to build a foundation of trust. All good.. hell, I have done it myself when I just wanted to rut, but when you have a rutter with someone that wants more and isn't ready, but is thinking they are looking for the same things, as many hunters and rutters will often say they are... you can run into problems.

This has nothing to do with d/s or bdsm, this being smart thing. It has a lot to do with knowing the playing field isn't always what we have safely gotten away with before and you damn well better know the score. You can excuse hunting and rutting any way you want to, but try explaining that to the judge or boss when the prey becomes predator.

You can't live in fear and you can still have a good time, but when you stop using brain cells to have a good time, you take risks and I don't care what gender you are or what side of that d/s excuse you are on.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 11/15/2010 9:20:38 AM >

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RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? - 11/15/2010 9:44:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Also, to be clear, leading a submissive female on the first meeting is NOT the same as grabbing her and forcing your will on her and I don't appreciate that false spin on my posting.

Your use of the word "aggressive" may have had something do with the conclusions people drew, not some intentional "false spin" on what you're saying.

The ability to communicate clearly so I understand what the man says, without question, is something I find critical before I am able to submit. Someone who portrays something other than what he means and then faults the audience for coming to an incorrect conclusion is not going to hold my attention very long.

quote:

Let me ask this in closing, just how many meetings must a submissive and prospective Dom have until she can follow his lead? Ha! The answer is "as many as it takes". That is "one" many times for great submissives and great Doms. It is always for me. Get over it.

What's to get over? That phrase makes no sense here. You feel, obviously, you are a "great" dominant because you go out with women who respond to your kind of domination. This view allows no room for where people may be in life, and what their needs might be. I felt the need to submit to my owner on our first date, but I did not allow myself to. Nor did he want me to. We both had reasons for that.

There's nothing to "get over," here. Greatness is subjective.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to Arturas)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say?

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