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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/14/2010 3:58:31 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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On a side note -- I have an open mind... I just try not to keep it so open that my brain falls out.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/14/2010 5:14:48 PM

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What do I think of Atheists? I have the same opinion of all religions that don't exist to harm others. In my opinion, people have a right to believe as they choose and worship what Gods they will. I myself could never be an Athiest as they don't believe in any kind of afterlife. Since the human body is not immortal, we are all dying from the moment we are born. If I believed death was a permanent end to my existance, I would fear death so much I would be unable to enjoy life or lead a normal life.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/14/2010 6:42:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SAMHAIN09

I personally have nothing against them.

I don't either. I actually hold very little against anyone.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/14/2010 7:50:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I have also expressed a desire to believe, but I find that impossible with the complete absence of evidence.

Would you be willing to consider your own personal direct experience to be evidence? Not evidence that any particular set of dogmas or doctrines are true -- just evidence that there really is something beyond your normal awareness that transcends our conventional understanding of the world.

I ask because so many of the people who state an openness to evidence place a contraint on what kind of evidence they are willing to accept. Science studies objective, publicly verifiable, phenomena. It does not have access to private experience. It can study the physiological correlates of experience, but not subjective experience itself. Someone who is only willing to acknowledge the objective and publicly verifiable aspects of the world as real has ruled out the only possible source of evidence for the divine, namely, their own private experience.

I have known and worked with countless atheists, both academically and professionally. Some or them practiced Tai Chi, others pursued one or another meditative discipline. They were all atheists to the core, but they were not Materialists. Materialism has been dressed up in all kinds of clown suits, from "methodological naturalism" to "scientific materialism" to even, lately, "atheism". But there is no scientific proof for a claim that the only valid form of evidence is a replicable application of scientific method.

I don't think atheism is based on faith, but Materialism definitely is. And many of the so-called "atheists" that we see descending on every thread in which their finely tuned noses detect a scent of non-Materialist heresy are nothing more or less than the functional equivalent of inquisitorial priests.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/14/2010 7:55:22 PM >

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/14/2010 8:25:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Some of them seem angry a lot.

Perhaps there's a reason for that...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
Atheists don't need imagination therefore they don't seem to have much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
Obviously atheists have imagination they are human beings now can we move on?

Atheists...no sense of humour.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/14/2010 8:36:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
What do I think of Atheists? I have the same opinion of all religions that don't exist to harm others. In my opinion, people have a right to believe as they choose and worship what Gods they will. I myself could never be an Athiest as they don't believe in any kind of afterlife. Since the human body is not immortal, we are all dying from the moment we are born. If I believed death was a permanent end to my existance, I would fear death so much I would be unable to enjoy life or lead a normal life.

You get over that. The deconversion processes generally takes years as one contemplates the beliefs that they were indoctrinated with and gradually rejects them one by one and that fear is probably the last to go. But it does and afterwords looking back you might come to the conclusion that theism was a crutch that you needed to face the idea of death only because you were used to using it.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/14/2010 8:42:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Some of them seem angry a lot.

Perhaps there's a reason for that...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
Atheists don't need imagination therefore they don't seem to have much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
Obviously atheists have imagination they are human beings now can we move on?

Atheists...no sense of humour.

quote:

But it does and afterwords looking back you might come to the conclusion that theism was a crutch that you needed to face the idea of death only because you were used to using it.

Pot, kettle.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/14/2010 9:00:09 PM

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I always found this funny.

Militant Agnostic, def.: A man or woman who goes knocking from door to door, with the message "I don't know, and you don't either!"

I consider myself atheist, in the sense that I'm convinced that no 'omnipotent god' is even possible. With what I know of physics, the only thing that's created a stone it cannot lift is the universe itself; and its 'self' is the stone. I don't credit it with willful, conscious intent behind the act, or any acts subsequent.

Yet, I find an unbreakable faith that a deity is watching and listening on a subconscious level. I have no evidence to support the assertions of my subconscious - none that would hold up against scrutiny, that is.

So, I consider myself to be an atheist and a deist at the same time. And remember it as evidence that my conscious beliefs don't match my own instinctual responses at every level. Nevertheless, I hold the products of reason to be more trustworthy, and attempt to reconcile paradigm-shifting implications in a way that doesn't set me so far from the experiences of my neighbors that I can't relate to them, or be relatable to them.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/14/2010 9:57:43 PM

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Oh?

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 3:44:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

What do I think of Atheists? I have the same opinion of all religions that don't exist to harm others. In my opinion, people have a right to believe as they choose and worship what Gods they will. I myself could never be an Athiest as they don't believe in any kind of afterlife. Since the human body is not immortal, we are all dying from the moment we are born. If I believed death was a permanent end to my existance, I would fear death so much I would be unable to enjoy life or lead a normal life.

So you are justifying your belief in God and an afterlife by your fear of death.

Isn't that also a good argument for why the whole concept of God and an afterlife may just be a fantasy?

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 4:22:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I will befriend an atheist if they still hold similar values as I do but if they don't then we're always going to end up bashing heads and we're not going to like the same things in life. We'll be from two different worlds and really..if we have nothing at all in common why exactly would we be friends?? I mean I couldn't ever imagine being friends with someone who was a skinhead or someone who is a fundamentalist. We just have zero in common. Our value systems would not be anywhere at all similar. The same with an atheist. Our value systems differer.

That's amazingly narrow-minded, but it's what I've come to expect from most who "have faith".

How very open minded of you

Maybe so.

But I can only draw from my own experiences.

And those have, in general, shown me that the devoutly religious tend to do exactly what the the poster above suggested.

If you do not believe the same way they do you are deemed unworthy.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 5:13:04 AM

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quote:

Maybe so.

But I can only draw from my own experiences.

And those have, in general, shown me that the devoutly religious tend to do exactly what the the poster above suggested.

If you do not believe the same way they do you are deemed unworthy.

Maybe that is why I like the church I go to so much. I have never gotten the feeling that they are judging anyone as unworthy. Now I am sure there are some there who look down their noses at me because I am gay or because I don't dress up, but they seem to have enough sense to keep their opinions to themselves.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 5:15:46 AM

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"Atheists don't need imagination therefore they don't seem to have much."

Atheists have fertile imaginations, which is why they are atheists and don't believe overly simplistic fairytales.

"The atheists claim to know some things the do not. Otherwise, everybody can believe they wish and this includes the atheists. "

Believers claim to know things they do not, atheists simply point out it is belief not knowledge.

"and if they don't I find we clash in personalities. My religion plays a part in every single part of my life. It IS my life."

No wonder you have issues with atheists. If religion means that much to you, you would be unable to avoid religion effecting your view on anything and everything. This would obviously cause problems when dealing with more open minded individuals.

"There are very few on here who identify themselves as agnostic or atheist who have not expressed an openness to the possibility of a God."

A possibility that is so remote it's not worth considering, and only applies to the agnostic/deist kind of god, not the anthrocentric gods from our ancestors. Many atheists understand religion from a historical, psychological perspective, which answers what gods are and were they come from, severly limiting any possibility of their actual existence. It is a much more agnostic view to ignore the historical, psychological perspective and allow for a higher posibility of gods, or the possibility of any and all gods.

"I find many more people of faith expressing a doubt "

If they believe and have faith, then they already KNOW god(s) exists, based on no evidence, contrary to all available evidence, and they are certain their god is the true god, based solely on the fact it is their god. Atheists on the other hand rely on evidence, and if any evidence of a god was found, they would accept it. Religious people deny or twist evidence to fit the beliefs they already have.

"What do I think of Atheists? I have the same opinion of all religions "

So you have the same opinion of all religions, now what do you think about atheists? That's right, atheism is not a religion.

"If I believed death was a permanent end to my existance, I would fear death so much I would be unable to enjoy life or lead a normal life. "

If I believed we lived for eternity after we died life would be so meaningless all I would do is sit around waiting to die. Every moment of life means so much when it's the only one you have.

"Would you be willing to consider your own personal direct experience to be evidence? Not evidence that any particular set of dogmas or doctrines are true -- just evidence that there really is something beyond your normal awareness that transcends our conventional understanding of the world.

I ask because so many of the people who state an openness to evidence place a contraint on what kind of evidence they are willing to accept. "

Knowledge and evidence shows how our minds work, how unreliable our senses and memories are, as well as our self assessment. This is why personal anecdotes are not evidence. The constraint on evidence comes from knowledge, and openness does not mean ignoring evidence.

"Someone who is only willing to acknowledge the objective and publicly verifiable aspects of the world as real has ruled out the only possible source of evidence for the divine, namely, their own private experience."

Psychics use a similar argument, and are wrong for the same reasons. We KNOW our personal memories and interpretations are unreliable. Science is the most reliable tool we have to examine the world around us.

"But there is no scientific proof for a claim that the only valid form of evidence is a replicable application of scientific method."

You may want to examine the success rate of the scientific method compared to all other ways people have tried to understand the world around them.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 5:28:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: petslave2b

You may want to examine the success rate of the scientific method compared to all other ways people have tried to understand the world around them.

You may want to examine the quote and reply features offered on CM, because while you replied to me there was only one quote that was mine.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 8:18:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Some of them seem angry a lot.

Perhaps there's a reason for that...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
Atheists don't need imagination therefore they don't seem to have much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
Obviously atheists have imagination they are human beings now can we move on?
Atheists...no sense of humour.

Anger for this? Don't be so precious.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 8:20:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: petslave2b

Knowledge and evidence shows how our minds work, how unreliable our senses and memories are, as well as our self assessment. This is why personal anecdotes are not evidence. The constraint on evidence comes from knowledge, and openness does not mean ignoring evidence... We KNOW our personal memories and interpretations are unreliable. Science is the most reliable tool we have to examine the world around us.

Please show me where precisely, in the quotes you cited, I am saying anything whatsoever about relying on our private experience for a scientifically accurate picture of the objective "world around us," or where I even remotely implied the reliability of our private experience -- nevermind after-the-fact "memories" and "interpretations" -- for that purpose.

Thank you.

K.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 9:16:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
If I believed death was a permanent end to my existance, I would fear death so much I would be unable to enjoy life or lead a normal life.

I said this the other day that I hate the idea of a non-ending afterlife. Sooner or later you are going to have done everything you wanted to and experience everything you wanted to. Heaven is such an impractical concept also. Apparently everyone in heaven has those by their side that they love but let's face it some of us don't love one another (even in families). Therefore how do you filter out the people that you hate but that someone you love loves? This is a tricky issue. There are also those other questions about what form we take i.e. how many arms we have etc. I would have loved to have an extra couple of arms but will god give me some if the resulting four armed monster would frighten my grandmother? I just don't know the answer to these pressing questions. Heaven may be fun for a while but ultimately I think I'd get bored with it and tired. The human mind can't tolerate an eternity of anything.

You enjoy life because it's short and you don't get the time to do all you want to. The sad truth is that religion makes some people see this life as a practice run but in heaven would you choose to live differently? No people wouldn't, so why then design a system that makes people think they are going to get more of what they had in life in death? It's a ludicrous idea. People die because they have to and life is so special that nobody can really comprehend why it would end, so some hope it won't.

Actually most hope it don't but some try to rationalise why it actually may not. If there was a creator in our image then why would this be comforting? Some things we ourselves take pride in creating and some things we just create as a sick joke or with no real love and attention to detail.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 11/15/2010 9:35:48 AM >

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 9:31:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard
The human mind can't tolerate and eternity of anything.

You don't actually know that though, do you? NB: I'm not wading into the ludicrous "is not!", "are too!" shit being batted back and forth in this entirely predictable thread, I'm just saying that as, so far as we know, no human mind has ever experienced an eternity, therefore we can't possibly know what it would, or would not, tolerate.

Personally, I reckon I could managed the first million or so years just fine ... I'd clean up on long-term investments, for a start

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 9:43:50 AM

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True I only really know my mind couldn't tolerate an eternity of anything. I get bored really quickly and have a short attention span.

What is hell they say? Hell is spending an eternity not being able to influence the world around you. Everything in paradise is as you wish even if you wish it to not be as you wish. Therefore the days of being pleasantly surprised are behind you.

You'd soon get bored of your investments too.

Humm then again if I can't tolerate it I'm still stuck with it anyway, so heaven is starting to sound like hell.

This is the problem with thinking too much, it's depressing.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 11/15/2010 9:50:52 AM >

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/15/2010 9:55:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Maybe so.

But I can only draw from my own experiences.

And those have, in general, shown me that the devoutly religious tend to do exactly what the the poster above suggested.

If you do not believe the same way they do you are deemed unworthy.

I would not call myself devout but I do practice and believe and I find you a good hearted person that has many opposing views to me. Unworthy would never enter my thoughts. In fact most here on CM that I believe are religious seem to get along quite well with you and enjoy the debate of ideas. Why do you think otherwise?

Butch

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