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"Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 8:28:37 AM

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So as to not further derail sunshinemiss's most excellent Hanky Spanky thread, I wanted to ask a question about TPE M/s relationships.

At what point DOES it (the dynamic of M/s) become more than just the business of those involved? There have been a couple of interesting cases recently that have brought that question to the forefront, in a legal sense, and it it has me wondering.

If your (general) dynamic involves extreme physical "interaction" (some folks might call it abuse), ie broken bones and the like, or extreme mental "interaction" (again, some might call it abuse), at what point does it become more than just YOUR dynamic?

Is there a point or is it all just a private thing to be kept out of the public eye?

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 8:34:15 AM

xssve

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Probably at the point you post it all over the internet.

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 8:46:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Probably at the point you post it all over the internet.

I would agree with that, I mean if you do something with a consensual partner in private, it's not my business, unless you make it my business by involving me, by telling me about it or forcing me to watch.

Bragging about actions that might be everything but legal is possibly not a very wise choice.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 9:08:43 AM

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Until you tell someone, it's private. But, there are different ways of "telling". Numerous trips to the ER after "extreme interactions" is telling someone. Behaving in an out-of-the-ordinary way in public is telling someone. Posting stuff on the internet is telling someone. Calling the cops is telling. These are just a few ways.

Then there is the question of "should" it be kept private. If the situation is abusive, i.e. it has a prolonged negative impact on one or more of the participants, then those people should "tell".

Master Fire

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 9:56:23 AM

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If your sub or slave is in the ER erpletely then somthing is wrong and it needs help

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 10:06:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: whipthatass

If your sub or slave is in the ER erpletely then somthing is wrong and it needs help

But is that true? If my slave/sub is in the ER as a result of play that is certainly true, and may be for yours and most others. But what about the heavy Sado/Maso couples? There are people who desire, even thrive on heavy pain. A black eye, deep cuts, etc are foreplay to some people I've seen. It would be nothing for people like this to break a bone or two and never even see the ER if they are experienced. But if one has an off day, or tries something new? They could certainly wind up with something they can't handle.

I do agree however, that if it is identifiable in public, then you have made it public business.
As long as 2 people consent to what they do, and it doesn't harm anyone else.. I don't care about it, illegal or not (but stress the ability to consent on all parties).

If you're going to be so far out there that society in general will come down on you like the hand of god, you had best well use caution and discretion to match that.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 10:21:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

Then there is the question of "should" it be kept private. If the situation is abusive, i.e. it has a prolonged negative impact on one or more of the participants, then those people should "tell".

Master Fire

BINGO! Thanks for the reply, Master Fire.

Here's another question...what if the participants DON'T tell out of protecting one or the other person because they're both so deeply into the M/s dynamic, but it becomes visable to others...ie; family/friends/complete strangers who witness various interactions that are considered out of the normal scope of what society considers acceptable or legal. Is it private then?

Whose idea of what's acceptable is...well, acceptable?

< Message edited by BonesFromAsh -- 11/18/2010 10:22:59 AM >

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 10:23:33 AM

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MFM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whar you been?

Good to see you!!!!!

Ron

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 10:35:46 AM

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quote:

Whose idea of what's acceptable is...well, acceptable?

In a sense, everyone involved.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 10:43:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Whose idea of what's acceptable is...well, acceptable?

In a sense, everyone involved.

Agreed. That being the case, is it acceptable to judge or call attention to the actions of a couple (or more if you're poly) for behavior that appears to be abusive or detrimental to health and well-being of those involved in what is described as a TPE dynamic? An example could be the one discussed in THIS thread.

for the record...I'm not trying to stir up shit or paint all TPE-M/s relationships in a bad light. I'm just curious at what point is it acceptable to butt in, if at all.

< Message edited by BonesFromAsh -- 11/18/2010 10:45:19 AM >

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 11:03:35 AM

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As has been said before, if all parties involved are able to give their consent, I don't care what they do, if it is legal or illegal, it is nobody elses business but their own.

In case one party involved is not able to give consent, due to medical or legal reasons, I would say that is crossing the line. Though a few years ago there was a guy here who always wanted to be enslaved, as in the domme acting as his legal guardian with him losing all rights and what not, he also wanted to be castrated and what not. We chatted a few times, I was fascinated and found it outside my comfort zone, but it was still interesting how he seemed to have it all thought through. He sent me tons and tons of reading material on the internet, tried to convince me that I would be his ideal new owner, I didn't think so but agreed to meet him, anybody surprised that he never showed up?

Oh there were a few warning signs, like his email addresses and CM names always changed (apparently a hacker who had it in for him) his mobile was switched off most of the time, he didn't have a webcam at home but was willing to go to an internet cafe to show his face, yeah well, there it only showed the an image of the top of somebody's head, wearing a baseball cap...

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(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 11:50:36 AM

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I tend to agree with what others have already said. If you involve me, I am going to get as involved as my conscious tells me to. That being said, my conscious is a quirky little devil. There is an old saying, 'Stupid is as stupid does' add to it the Law of Natural Selection, and you will have an idea of how lax my conscious can be at times.

For me......I tend to weigh the ability to consent of all parties. If all parties seem to be able to consent, have done so with some measure of awareness (aside from stupidity where as I might just think the moron deserves whatever they get) then I might just get the hell outta the area and let the chips fall where they may.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 12:19:29 PM

xssve

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Well you do have to set your priorities - I know and have known way more people destroying themselves with drugs and alcohol, even food than I've ever seen putting themselves in danger from sex - other than possibly general promiscuity, which increases ones chances of contracting STD's dramatically, but is not typically found In BDSM, in my experience, where there is usually some kind of vetting process.

I generally object only to those things that place me or my rights, or those of others at risk (which incudes compulsive promiscuity, if it seems like you're exercising poor judgment, i.e., becoming a possible vector for incurable STD's), less so to risks that are confined to you alone - I don't actually know anybody who want's to be killed or eaten or anything but I would be inclined to offer an opinion if they told me about it.

If nobodies rights are being violated, and it's not a public health issue, it becomes a pretty subjective as far as I'm concerned.

Thing is, there is a definite element of exhibitionism in BDSM, people like to be noticed, have their kinks validated, while other people are essentially voyeurs, thriving on being outraged by what they see when they have gone to great lengths and trouble to pry into your business, and the two camps keep each other in business, I reckon.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 12:51:26 PM

agirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

At what point DOES it (the dynamic of M/s) become more than just the business of those involved? There have been a couple of interesting cases recently that have brought that question to the forefront, in a legal sense, and it it has me wondering.

If your (general) dynamic involves extreme physical "interaction" (some folks might call it abuse), ie broken bones and the like, or extreme mental "interaction" (again, some might call it abuse), at what point does it become more than just YOUR dynamic?

Is there a point or is it all just a private thing to be kept out of the public eye?

I really haven't a clue at what point.

I think if I walked around with blood-soaked pants, I'd be foolish to expect OTHER people to ignore it and view it in the same light I do, if told how it occurred.

I EXPECT people to have a negative opinion/get the wrong idea/misconstrue things in various circumstances.

The things that take place in MY relationship that would ruffle people's feathers to the degree that they'd interfere, don't get aired or displayed.

There is the odd person that thinks I'm deluded or under M's spell.......That's fine, not everyone is going to view it positively. This is to be expected.

When it comes to the legal aspect , half of what M and I do is illegal. It just depends what kind of illegal something is. What WE do is perfectly fine for us to do.....it's extreme and unpalatable to some and not to others.

There IS no point for me.......it'd be entirely down to what I knew of a situation and how informed I was over time in a REAL-LIFE sense. I am very slow to make judgements of the type that'd require me to act.

Our *extreme* stuff will be kept out of the public eye unless I'm willing to accept or respond to onslaught of any kind.

agirl

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 12:53:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

Here's another question...what if the participants DON'T tell out of protecting one or the other person because they're both so deeply into the M/s dynamic, but it becomes visable to others...ie; family/friends/complete strangers who witness various interactions that are considered out of the normal scope of what society considers acceptable or legal. Is it private then?

No, by definition, if others know, it's not private.

quote:

Whose idea of what's acceptable is...well, acceptable?

Those involved define this, in Our book. BUT, if it isn't private, i.e. there is risky, but consensual, behavior (extreme SM, for example), and people have noticed, then it has to be assumed that those involved must have accepted the risk of being "outed" or accused of abuse... or worse. That's one of the risks of their kink.

Master Fire

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The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 12:56:02 PM

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Geez. I think I just wasted My time typing on that other thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh
At what point DOES it (the dynamic of M/s) become more than just the business of those involved?

When one of the parties involved asks for assistance in some way. I'd have to add when third parties (innocent bystanders) are being harmed. I suppose we have to make a special mention of anyone who has a career where mandatory reporting is involved.

quote:

If your (general) dynamic involves extreme physical "interaction" (some folks might call it abuse), ie broken bones and the like, or extreme mental "interaction" (again, some might call it abuse), at what point does it become more than just YOUR dynamic?

I'm not sure if I see the difference in the question. I suppose you could look at it from the perspective of, if a bone gets broken and requires a trip to the ER, it can have possible impact on others. A slower wait for other people to get medical attention or if the person couldn't pay the bill, it goes to higher costs for others. That's kind of a stretch though.

quote:

Is there a point or is it all just a private thing to be kept out of the public eye?

The problem with this is, when you establish this idea, you have to take all that goes with it. Including things like demos and other educational events so people can minimize their risks and hopefully avoid things such as going to the ER.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 1:15:35 PM

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FR

I've been thinking a lot about this recently-some friends of mine are into ultraviolence (or at least that's what it's called here-I don't think I've ever seen an American use the term) and my own reactions to their play have scared me a little bit-I'm wondering if I'm really as much of a fluffy sadist as I think I am.

I think it comes down to adult responsibility-if a consenting adult wishes to be in a relationship that may cause them to be physically damaged, and is willing to accept that risk (where accepting that risk also means being willing to deal with any consequences) then who am I to tell them, from outside their relationship, that it's not ok?

Somebody said on the other thread that we're all off the edge of the map here, and that's true. xssve is kidding himself if he thinks that he wouldn't be pilloried by society just as badly as daddysprop's master, and if it weren't for the fact that I'm a young and attractive female I probably would be too. He's saying the line is clear, not fuzzy, but the fact is that most people would draw the line waaaaaaay before where he's standing and he rejects that (as we've all done, really) because he's decided that he knows better-he knows there are fulfilling relationships to be had beyond the commonly accepted line. How is he then to complain when another person does exactly the same thing with exactly the same knowledge to the line he's drawn further along?

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 1:29:33 PM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

FR

I've been thinking a lot about this recently-some friends of mine are into ultraviolence (or at least that's what it's called here-I don't think I've ever seen an American use the term) and my own reactions to their play have scared me a little bit-I'm wondering if I'm really as much of a fluffy sadist as I think I am.

I think it comes down to adult responsibility-if a consenting adult wishes to be in a relationship that may cause them to be physically damaged, and is willing to accept that risk (where accepting that risk also means being willing to deal with any consequences) then who am I to tell them, from outside their relationship, that it's not ok?

Somebody said on the other thread that we're all off the edge of the map here, and that's true. xssve is kidding himself if he thinks that he wouldn't be pilloried by society just as badly as daddysprop's master, and if it weren't for the fact that I'm a young and attractive female I probably would be too. He's saying the line is clear, not fuzzy, but the fact is that most people would draw the line waaaaaaay before where he's standing and he rejects that (as we've all done, really) because he's decided that he knows better-he knows there are fulfilling relationships to be had beyond the commonly accepted line. How is he then to complain when another person does exactly the same thing with exactly the same knowledge to the line he's drawn further along?

When it's a non consensual relationship, that's when.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 1:35:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

When it's a non consensual relationship, that's when.

And who are you to state that it's non-consensual? If you're going to rely on her legal status as your reason I will remind you that a relationship which contains ultraviolence is illegal no matter her legal status-the law draws the line well before issues of consent.

If you admit that a consensual ultraviolent relationship is ok (which is implied in saying that only a lack of consent gives you the right to object) then you're already beyond the line the law has drawn, so it seems pathetically weak to insist on a legal assessment of competence for a person to consent.

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RE: "Mind your own business"...TPE and privancy - 11/18/2010 1:38:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
I think it comes down to adult responsibility-if a consenting adult wishes to be in a relationship that may cause them to be physically damaged, and is willing to accept that risk (where accepting that risk also means being willing to deal with any consequences) then who am I to tell them, from outside their relationship, that it's not ok?

I don't think that can work, VC. It's quite a widespread belief, nowadays, that people - nominally, vanillas - will stay in relationships with abusive partners because they (the victims) have lost so much of a sense of self-worth, of belief in themselves, that they can't 'break out'. How, for instance, could a doctor or copper distinguish a D/s or M/s- engendered injury from a straightforward, abusive kind of injury? And - worse - supposing that such injuries occur in a relationship that's both D/s- based - and abusive (in a clearly non-fun way)?

I think the bottom line is that being involved D/s and M/s relationships means that we can no longer take ordinary commonsense maxims, that work fine for vanillas, quite so much for granted. To put it another way: if we live our lives on the line, we might need to jump this and that side of it, at times. That line would involve that which is ordinarily accepted about what divides public from private business.

Personally, I think I'd intervene if a person was badly hurt and/or showed signs of long-term unhappiness. But I doubt I'd be able to do it without at least some misgivings.

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