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Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 10:48:12 AM

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From the MSNBC article "God was behind Big Bang, Pope says":

"The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe," Benedict said on the day Christians mark the Epiphany, the day the Bible says the three kings reached the site where Jesus was born by following a star.

"Contemplating it (the universe) we are invited to read something profound into it: the wisdom of the creator, the inexhaustible creativity of God," he said in a sermon to some 10,000 people in St. Peter's Basilica on the feast day.

What he is saying without realizing it is this..."We are invited to interpret that which we do not understand."

In other words, it's no different than looking up at clouds in the sky and seeing a bunny rabbit, deer, bird, Elvis...whatever. The "inexhaustible creativity" he speaks of is not God but the human imagination, which has been the wellspring of all the explanations outside of scientific observation since the dawn of humankind. This is so obvious it's not funny!

I used to think humans would mature into intelligent beings one day and all this nonsense would finally go away. But I have come to realize that every new baby born will need to understand (accurately) the nature of the world they live in and since "real" education that nurtures one's intelligence is extremely limited in most of the world and likely always will be, I doubt it will ever happen. They would also have to somehow manage to grow into adults and not be conditioned to think as their parents, friends, and general society where they grew up think. That's probably the biggest obstacle of all. There will always be a large portion of ignorant people in the world. Right now I estimate that portion to be something like 99.9999% give or take.

Some will argue there are plenty of people who are not ignorant; that there are plenty of highly educated people in the world right now. But being intelligent has nothing to do with being highly educated, which is why we have highly educated people...even in the scientific community...that still believe in God and/or subscribe to a particular religion.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 12:24:33 PM

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quote:

I used to think humans would mature into intelligent beings one day and all this nonsense would finally go away.

Did you really? Aww, isn't that cute. You should have asked me. I could have told you religion has been around for a really long time and it's probably not going anywhere. But not all is lost. Brain is around here somewhere and the two of you can get together and have a good time discussing how ignorant everyone else is. Have fun

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 12:39:08 PM

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Would you expect the Pope to say anything else? A lengthy explanation of how the solid state theory has never been called into question might be a bit much to hope for...

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 1:13:05 PM

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Thank you, and I'll repeat it. Exactly what would you expect the Pope to say?

Frankly, I have to wonder about the intelligence level of those who find they have to "prove" how smart they are by attacking those who choose to have faith.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 1:16:09 PM

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Yeah-I guess Goldman Sachs made the big bang.

HA

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 1:18:42 PM

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Hey, I a few hundred more years and they might even embrace evolution.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 1:21:39 PM

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Pope says "God is whatever Science can't yet explain". Religions have been claiming dominion over anything we didn't have an explanation for, since the beginning. Right back from when we were huddling around a campfire, afraid of the evil spirits in the darkness.

Why didn't the catholic church make this announcement 100 years ago? Why doesn't the bible mention any of this? Think about that.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 1:26:17 PM

RCdc

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quote:

Some will argue there are plenty of people who are not ignorant; that there are plenty of highly educated people in the world right now.

I believe and would argue that there are many ignorant people anthro and I am comfortable stating for the record that I believe you to be one of them, with a post like this.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 1:45:33 PM

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"God is behind the Big Bang ...." hmmmmmm

I do hope s/he/it used a condom and lube.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 2:06:05 PM

hertz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere

Pope says "God is whatever Science can't yet explain". Religions have been claiming dominion over anything we didn't have an explanation for, since the beginning. Right back from when we were huddling around a campfire, afraid of the evil spirits in the darkness.

You have to admit though, Science has returned the favour in more recent years.

quote:

Why didn't the catholic church make this announcement 100 years ago? Why doesn't the bible mention any of this? Think about that.

100 years ago Science didn't mention it either. Think about that.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 2:18:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Frankly, I have to wonder about the intelligence level of those who find they have to "prove" how smart they are by attacking those who choose to have faith.

Friend speaks my mind.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 4:13:18 PM

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Several of the replies here were expected so par for the course I guess. But for those of you who are enthusiasts, I will elaborate a bit.

But first, I never said I wasn't one of the ignorant people so please put that in your peace pipe and smoke it. Second, my post is not about surprise that the pope would make such a statement...of course that's what he would say since he obviously is completely vested in the greatest story ever told (emphasis on the word, "story"). And yes, religion has been around for a very long time. Third, how is my original post attempting to prove my intelligence? Are you not now reading something into what I wrote?

Religion, as it's generally understood today with authority figures, symbols, books, temples, special attire, and accompanying rituals has been around for approximately 20,000 years (about the same amount of time as agriculture and directly tied to it actually) and became institutionalized and codified shortly after the invention of writing (no more having to deal with things changing slightly by being passed on by word of mouth from generation to generation) roughly 5000 years ago. Another significant change would occur with the advent of printing but discussing that is beyond the scope of this thread. Prior to the discovery of agriculture, "religions" were numerous in variety and more like myths although people living at the time would not have thought of them that way. They all were essentially "just so" stories intended to fill the void of the unknown for those who asked the big questions.

People in general have a very hard time accepting the unknown (aka, "God") so they insist on having something to wrap around it and make it pretty. Religion fulfills this need but the purpose of religion goes far beyond merely attempting to explain the mysteries of the times. Once agriculture was discovered and permanent settlements began to be established and grow (along with the population), a means to control the masses was necessary. Religion and religious authority in conjunction with politics and leaders filled this social role. The two began a hand in hand relationship that continued for centuries until the American Revolution and the separation of church and state. Control of the masses was necessary to effectively manage such things as irrigation, planting, harvesting, building, maintenance, defense, and so forth. Sound like anything going on today?

Hertz,
Your first response to wittynamehere is a little vague so I cannot comment. But regarding science not mentioning the Big Bang 100 years ago, that's easy. Science had not developed to the point where the Big Bang theory could be developed, let alone imagined. Up until the 1950's the Milky Way was thought to be the entire universe. But now we know the Milky Way galaxy contains at least 200 billion stars and is one of at least 300 billion other galaxies that also contain billions of stars.

One thing to keep in mind about science...it's a work in progress which means with more information the theories will change. You don't get that with religion (which should be obvious by now). Also, science never says its theories are fact...unlike religion, nothing is set in stone to become dead and static.

To all,
If my posts offend you, why not just state that instead of posting snide remarks? I know the religious people here don't like what I say but I don't write these posts deliberately to upset you. Absense of malice my friends. Your beliefs are yours but you cannot keep them from becoming obsolete and neither can I. I embrace new knowledge and always have. I don't "believe" anything. What I write is a consequence of that. The pope is trying to claim authority over something he has absolutely no power over...and it shows. If anything, I'm surprised he doesn't understand the mistake he is making by saying such things. The only people who believe him are those who don't know enough to see through it. The rest either can see through it or are in denial.

Also, for those who need to hear it...yes I am ignorant, too. I do not know how to perform surgery or repair a car. I can fly an airplane but not a jet. I do not know how to read or speak Chinese. We are all ignorant in many ways.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 4:41:56 PM

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First: I'm an atheist.

This is a serious question, not a snide one:

Could you provide scientific proof, or just a logical argument, that shows it's better to be alive than dead? You see, I can't. I'm still alive because I have a largely unquestioned faith that it's better to be alive than dead.

The Pope may be the world's leading bullshitter and all religion ultimately a lot of drivel, but I honestly don't think most people realise just how much irrational faith they have, nor how crucial it is that they maintain that faith.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 5:27:32 PM

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quote:

Hey, I a few hundred more years and they might even embrace evolution.

Pope John Paul II (1996) said that accepting Darwinism was compatible with belief in God. Human soul (consciousness) was handed over by God, of course.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 5:57:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

quote:

Hey, I a few hundred more years and they might even embrace evolution.

Pope John Paul II (1996) said that accepting Darwinism was compatible with belief in God. Human soul (consciousness) was handed over by God, of course.

Oh shit, no all that has to happen is for the baptists ect. to do the same

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 6:17:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Exactly what would you expect the Pope to say?

Frankly, not THAT statement. He is of course a believer in the Bible (kinda comes with the job). So he believes in the Genesis version of the world in seven days.

What his statement means is that he sees no conflict between Genesis and the Big Bang. This is surprising to me, considering how conservatively the Catholic Church has classically taken the Bible.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 6:40:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

First: I'm an atheist.

This is a serious question, not a snide one:

Could you provide scientific proof, or just a logical argument, that shows it's better to be alive than dead? You see, I can't. I'm still alive because I have a largely unquestioned faith that it's better to be alive than dead.

The Pope may be the world's leading bullshitter and all religion ultimately a lot of drivel, but I honestly don't think most people realise just how much irrational faith they have, nor how crucial it is that they maintain that faith.

Good question. I was once hitch-hiking to work back in the early 70's. I guy in a VW Bug picked me up and after a minute or two had passed, asked me if I was happy to be alive. Well my first thought was maybe he was suicidal and wanted company. At the very least I was a bit nervous. But I replied, "I don't know...I haven't been alive all that long to tell." He replied, "Good answer."

Scientific proof is not possible and not even necessary when you consider that when you die...that's it. I know I'm going to catch a lot of grief for saying this but what each of us thinks of as his or her "self" is nothing more than an extremely complex set of electro-chemical energy patterns zipping around in the cells that make up our brain. When the brain stos fiunctioning there's nothing left to maintain the energy patterns. You won't be around to feel good, bad, or anything else about your life or death. In essence, the "observer" is gone. You survive only as a memory in those who knew you when you were alive.

Most people think in terms of subject/object. For example, you (the subject) feel good (the object). You (the subject) have a body (the object). It's hard for people to wrap their head around the idea that they do not "feel" pain when something hurts...they ARE pain. The subject/object split is an illusion propogated by the way the mind functions as an organ. It is also responsible for the illusion that each of us is somehow an entity separate and apart from our environment. This is also why it's hard for people to overcome addictions by being strong-willed. The same brain that's being relied upon to overcome addiction is the same brain that is addicted. That's a bit over-simplified but close to the mark for this conversation.

Have you ever fainted? Do you remember anything about the actual process of fainting (when it was underway...not the moments leading up to it). You cannot because the higher function part of your brain shut down.

Have you ever been so engrossed in doing something that you forgot or at least temporarily let go of all thinking except that which was part of what you were doing? In essence you forgot yourself. For that period of time, YOU ceased to exist. You were no longer a being acting upon an object. You and the object merged because your mind was no longer maintaining the thought processes that create the illusion of being separate entities.

As far as people having irrational faith, I think it would be more accurate to say there's a lot of things people take for granted or simply don't think about because they either don't have the time or really are not interested in exploring the mind and learning how it works. I'm positive there is an enormous number of people out there who have the capacity to reach incredible levels of understanding but cannot because of the conditions where they live (cultural, social, environmental). Faith is to the individual as religion is to the masses. It's what is turned to when there is nothing else to fill the void.

That is all fine and well except when people get so vested in the placeholder that they forget about what is still there and is actually more real than what they have made up in their minds to replace it. This is my main beef with religions. None of them is the truth. Billions of people all over the world spend their lives devoted to what is essentially an image, an idea, a "re-presentation" of what is. They are so transfixed by the image, they never get even close to the reality it veils. In short, they never have a direct experience of being alive. Maybe they might during a really scary car accident or when they slip on some ice and the situation overwhelms their mind so much that they have a similar situation to the one I described above about forgetting yourself. But that will be all they get. Wouldn't it be something to experience life directly without your "self" interpreting everything?

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 7:38:33 PM

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OP, as a courtesy, could you improve the appearance of your text. I don't think it is a color issue, but the font you are using is making the posts very difficult to read. I know that this may be My issue due to My eyesight. In fact, I struggled reading the original. The longer post that you followed up with is worse and I can't possibly address it. Thank you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Frankly, not THAT statement. He is of course a believer in the Bible (kinda comes with the job). So he believes in the Genesis version of the world in seven days.

What his statement means is that he sees no conflict between Genesis and the Big Bang. This is surprising to me, considering how conservatively the Catholic Church has classically taken the Bible.

This may be a bit simplistic on the subject, however I find it an interpretation that works in My case. It relates only to the seven day bit, which is actually six. Rest came on the seventh "day".

One of the issues that many folks have with the bible is the fact that all written passages were done by men. That being the case, any version that God passed down to men had to be in terms that men of that era could understand. The "day" doesn't necessarily refer to a day as we understand it, being the twenty-four hour kind. Instead, it may very well be a day such as God understands. Considering a being who is the Alpha and the Omega, a day isn't going to be a single rotation of the earth.

The bible has many instances where terms are used that aren't exact definitions. It may be the very same case.

Since the topic of the thread, at least in part is ignorance, I suppose that is My perspective. When a being understands the vastness of the universe and all things that have ever happened or will happen, I'm pretty sure that once in a while, He has to put things in such a way that will make sense to creatures that can't possibly have the same kind of comprehension.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 7:44:25 PM

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I am a believer in God but I'm also a believer in science and I don't ever feel any confusion with believing in both.

So the big bang was created by scientific methods. What created those scientific methods? And then what created those and so on and so forth.

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RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang - 1/6/2011 7:49:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
I am a believer in God but I'm also a believer in science and I don't ever feel any confusion with believing in both.

Maybe you haven't taken a good look at the two concepts. One is based on the study of reality, and one is made up by people who didn't believe in reality.

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