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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 11:40:04 AM

lockedaway

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Justice often IS mercy. Fairness is merciful. If you give the death penalty to a child/rapist/muderer, convicted with DNA evidence (I don't want to go off on that tangent) then you are showing mercy to the victim's family and society at large. Like most concepts, "mercy" is a two sided coin; what is merciful to one side may be brutal justice to the other.

The question is often "what is justice?" In New Jersey, there are a hundred different laws that will cause the suspension of your driving privilege. Many of these law have NOTHING to do with the act of driving. Is that justice? Often times losing your driver's license in NJ means losing your job, your home and dire straights for your family. Is it right for that kind of penalty to be imposed to smoking a joint on the beach?

Shakespear (probably Sir Francis Bacon) said that mercy was man's greatest virtue. But when does "mercy" can make a mockery out of justice and can often be confused with charity.

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 11:40:43 AM

kdsub

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Where are we now...did we last long enough

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 11:42:01 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I just don't see how you can say that faced with human history...but I guess we perceive that history differently.

Butch

I work in finance, but my degree is in history, Butch. Does't make me the king of history, but makes me confident enough to state that your example has nothing to do with justice.

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 11:46:38 AM

kdsub

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I believe it does... justice in civilizations has always been for those only within that particular justice system..Justice does not mean fair or right especially for those outside that system.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 44

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 11:48:54 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Justice often IS mercy. Fairness is merciful. If you give the death penalty to a child/rapist/muderer, convicted with DNA evidence (I don't want to go off on that tangent) then you are showing mercy to the victim's family and society at large. Like most concepts, "mercy" is a two sided coin; what is merciful to one side may be brutal justice to the other.

The question is often "what is justice?" In New Jersey, there are a hundred different laws that will cause the suspension of your driving privilege. Many of these law have NOTHING to do with the act of driving. Is that justice? Often times losing your driver's license in NJ means losing your job, your home and dire straights for your family. Is it right for that kind of penalty to be imposed to smoking a joint on the beach?

Shakespear (probably Sir Francis Bacon) said that mercy was man's greatest virtue. But when does "mercy" can make a mockery out of justice and can often be confused with charity.

Great post, bringing in some of the opposing arguments.

Mercy certainly can make a mockery out of justice.

What feeds your soul, seeing the right thing done or trying to help someone when they can't get help from anyone else, no matter what they've done?

Have we not all been there? When we've fucked up and really needed a helping hand? Did we expect justice then?

Anyone ever shown you real kindness when you know you didn't deserve it?

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 11:50:42 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

tazzy was mercy the driving force behind the changes?

In many cases yes. Mercy also being that feeling that something isnt quite right and requires a new way of dealing with a situation. Like locking up a woman who was beaten for years because she finally snapped and killed the abuser.

Guilty, yes.

Not sending her to jail... mercy... because something wasnt right to begin with.

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Post #: 46

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 11:55:52 AM

kdsub

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Which comes first…take the US for example… we had from the beginning arguably the best justice system in the world to that date… Yet we managed to take land and enslaved people under that system.

Later when we were established as a society mercy started to show itself in dealings with slaves and aborigines.

I am no history expert either but I feel comfortable in saying the example above is true to most societies in history.

A justice system forms first and when the society is secure and safe then mercy may begin to show...This should indicate which of the two is essential for the development of a civilization and which ultimately determines the worth of a civilization.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 47

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:01:52 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Which comes first…take the US for example… we had from the beginning arguably the best justice system in the world to that date… Yet we managed to take land and enslaved people under that system.

Later when we were established as a society mercy started to show itself in dealings with slaves and aborigines.

I am no history expert either but I feel comfortable in saying the example above is true to most societies in history.

A justice system forms first and when the society is secure and safe then mercy may begin to show...This should indicate which of the two is essential for the development of a civilization and which ultimately determines the worth of a civilization.

Butch

As human beings we argue from time to time. And in the majority of cases we forgive and forget. Most of us still think we are right, but we take pleasure in subordinating what we think is just to the comfort we get from showing a more personal, warm, merciful approach to relationships and their failings.

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Post #: 48

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:02:22 PM

lockedaway

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Yes but now you are getting on the slippery slope of pre-mediation, defense at the time of killing, etc. etc. etc. And it is the the expansion of a simple premise that someone had to defend themselves that can lead us to great distortions in justice.

Was it Butch that said that justice is whatever the accepted system of justice is for a particular people? To an extent, of course, he is accurate but that doesn't make what is meted out in that society just.

What is justice in a Marxian society is not justice in the United States. Marx believe in dialectic materialism and we believe in being inured by our Creator with certain inalienable rights. The two beliefs could not be more opposite. Therefore, justice in those two systems can be very, very different things.

As far as the question, "where are all of those colonial powers now?" Well, they are right here where they have been for hundreds of years. Spain is still Spain, France is still France, Britain is still Britain, etc. except that they have divested themselves of their colonies at least insofar as occupying a foreign land. Their financial colonization may still be very much in tact.

I have been shown kindness in the past when I did not deserve it. What it did was it impelled me to make what I did wrong...right.

< Message edited by lockedaway -- 4/9/2011 12:04:33 PM >

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:02:37 PM

kdsub

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Tazzy I do agree with you on an individual basis but not on a civilization level. Mercy is always gauged by what is best for the majority right or wrong.

In your example there will always be the justice system judging but not always the mercy result...so which is the most important? I am saying important not right

Having the type of justice system that would allow your examples result is the important part. Remember there are a lot of systems in this world that would have a much different result... which was more important to the stoned rape victim.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/9/2011 12:04:46 PM >

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 50

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:09:17 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I have been shown kindness in the past when I did not deserve it. What it did was it impelled me to make what I did wrong...right.

Me too. As it should any responsible human being.

But did you look at in purely the sense of what it meant for you and your development?

Or did you also feel humbled that someone who could have caused you problems that you didn't need in your life, when actually you would have deserved it where justice was upheld, chose not to out of the kindness of his/her heart?

And perhaps that is the point - takes one to know one.

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Post #: 51

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:12:47 PM

lockedaway

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Both. I am a great believer in mercy in instances where people have not caused harm to other people. I am merciless (or rather I am merciful to the victim) to a perpetrator that inflicted a serious harm that permanently marked the victim, physically or emotionally, like a giant thumb print.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 52

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:16:12 PM

kdsub

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I guess I am a realist...I can assign justice, or perhaps a justice system, to be more important then mercy when it comes to the development of a civilization but I am by no means diminishing its importance on an individual level.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 53

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:18:54 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Fiat justitia ruat Caelium

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Post #: 54

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:20:46 PM

lockedaway

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Justice is not necessarily more important than mercy. You just have to decide who you are showing mercy to. Is it merciful not to impose the death penalty on some human monster? I don't think it is. I think it is unmerciful and unjust to society. In my opinion, the ultimate crimes deserve/demand/require the ultimate punishment to deter the crime (at least inasmuch as permanently deterring for the one put to death), and vindicating society, the victim and the victim's family.

For example, who was that beautiful girl in Florida taken from her bedroom by...James Cooey? I think that's his name. In my opinion, allowing him to live after he has exhausted his legal remedies is unmerciful to all of us.

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Post #: 55

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:39:13 PM

kdsub

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Not much mercy there I would say

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 56

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:46:12 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Yes but now you are getting on the slippery slope of pre-mediation, defense at the time of killing, etc. etc. etc. And it is the the expansion of a simple premise that someone had to defend themselves that can lead us to great distortions in justice.

Was it Butch that said that justice is whatever the accepted system of justice is for a particular people? To an extent, of course, he is accurate but that doesn't make what is meted out in that society just.

What is justice in a Marxian society is not justice in the United States. Marx believe in dialectic materialism and we believe in being inured by our Creator with certain inalienable rights. The two beliefs could not be more opposite. Therefore, justice in those two systems can be very, very different things.

As far as the question, "where are all of those colonial powers now?" Well, they are right here where they have been for hundreds of years. Spain is still Spain, France is still France, Britain is still Britain, etc. except that they have divested themselves of their colonies at least insofar as occupying a foreign land. Their financial colonization may still be very much in tact.

I have been shown kindness in the past when I did not deserve it. What it did was it impelled me to make what I did wrong...right.

Yes, those countries do still exist, but they are no longer the colonial super powers they once were. There was a time the Dutch were one of those colonial super powers. None of them figure heavily into today's global economy. I'm sure you can dredge up a few Nazi's too, but their days of power have passed. Which was my point.

Justice that is not tempered by mercy is eventually despised.

BTW: That is not a political statement, but an historical one. I live with the History King.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 4/9/2011 12:47:27 PM >

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 12:57:11 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Justice that is not tempered by mercy is eventually despised.

If that were only true.

How much mercy is there in the Sharia system... and is it despised by the billions of Muslims? Some parts of it are despised by our society but not by those governed by it.

Its been around for a few years don’t you think?

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 58

RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 1:10:31 PM

lockedaway

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Again...you have to define what "justice" is and what "mercy" is and to whom mercy is being shown. Justice without mercy is what? Justice? Or is it oppression? Or is it tyranny? I guess it depends on what the system of justice is. I don't find Hammurabi's Code to be unjust. It imposed the same injury on the perpetrator that the perpetrator intentionally imposed on someone else.  Murderers like those that were written about in the novel "In Cold Blood"...should they not been put to death? If they hadn't, would that have been merciful to society? Mercy is not necessarily an abrogation of justice.

Stoning a woman/man for committing adultery is unjust. She/he did not take a life and so she/he does not deserve the forfeiture of his/her own.  We don't put to death drunk drivers that kill innocent people in motor vehicle accidents because the key word is "accident". The driver lacked the mens rae to kill the other person. Still...we may put the driver in jail for 10-20 with such determining factors as past driving record and blood alcohol content. Is it unjust to put a drunk in jail for 20 years for killing a pedestrian when he/she was blowing a .3 and has two prior convictions for drunk driving? I don't think it is. The drunk does, obviously.

Again, the United States' legal system stems (is underpinned by) from a belief in a Creator and that has lead to a very merciful legal system by the world's standards. The legal system in the Middle East seems VERY unmerciful to us and yet it exists in oligarchies that believe in a Creator as well. AND those legal systems have been in place for more than 2000 years.

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 1:17:11 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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Even sharia has some contemporary movements. In any case I'm not sure that helps your point. All political systems have their injustices, especially those rooted in fundamentalist religion that consider law as God's law.

Humans will put up with a great deal of injustice, especially if there is enough fear instilled in them. But rule by terror never lasts, b/c eventually people revolt. Who is ruling in So Africa now?

This may well be a point to have to agree to disagree on. I do tend to take an historically long view . . .

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