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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 1:22:50 PM   
lockedaway


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Status: offline 		How do you define "fundamentalist religion"?  How many justice systems are there that are rooted in fundamentalist religion?  Better question, what justice systems are there that are NOT premised on some manner of religion?  I guess I am disagreeing with your point which seems to be that justice systems that have some form of religion at their root are inherently? predominantly? overwhelmingly? inadvertently? unjust.

I will also add that when you marry your criminal justice system to your revenue generating system, you diminish "justice".

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 1:26:36 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Justice that is not tempered by mercy is eventually despised.


If that were only true.

How much mercy is there in the Sharia system... and is it despised by the billions of Muslims? Some parts of it are despised by our society but not by those governed by it.

Its been around for a few years don’t you think?

Butch


Butch, was asking about individual preference, as opposed to broader system. Not sure why you're using Sharia Law to make your point. You like all of that Butch?

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 2:18:39 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

How do you define "fundamentalist religion"?  How many justice systems are there that are rooted in fundamentalist religion?  Better question, what justice systems are there that are NOT premised on some manner of religion?  I guess I am disagreeing with your point which seems to be that justice systems that have some form of religion at their root are inherently? predominantly? overwhelmingly? inadvertently? unjust.

I will also add that when you marry your criminal justice system to your revenue generating system, you diminish "justice".


First, if I have to define fundamentalist religion to have a conversation with you, we are not speaking on the same level. I have no interest in nit picking over semantics. .

Second, my point concerning the sharia (which I did not bring up BTW) is that it is a law that is rooted in the belief that the law is God's law. It's much easier to condone injustice in that situation and much harder to revolt against that type of system. Here when we rebel, we rebel against the government, there, they have to rebel against GOD.

Hard to do when you've been brought up in a fundamentalist religion.

I agree with your last statement absolutely.




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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 2:20:39 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Justice that is not tempered by mercy is eventually despised.


If that were only true.

How much mercy is there in the Sharia system... and is it despised by the billions of Muslims? Some parts of it are despised by our society but not by those governed by it.

Its been around for a few years don’t you think?

Butch


Butch, was asking about individual preference, as opposed to broader system. Not sure why you're using Sharia Law to make your point. You like all of that Butch?



I believe the comment about the Sharia was directed toward me. We are having several conversations about this topic, cool but sometimes confusing.


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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 2:25:06 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gothikbutterfly


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Justice is not justice unless tempered with mercy, and mercy is meaningless without justice. You can't value one without cherishing the other.



Well said.


yeh that was well said but if we review the history of law the two really do not mix.

Mercy comes into play when there is no supporting law.  The only court you will ever see any form of mercy has all but been abolished in america and a bitch to get to in other common law countries and possessions of the UK..

go in for a traffic ticket and ask for mercy LOL

quote:

Justice that is not tempered by mercy is eventually despised.


doesnt change anything the gub does what the gub does and people follow along and vote the bums out so the next group of bums can do the same thing LOL






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/9/2011 2:27:49 PM >

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 3:02:56 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"Anyone ever shown you real kindness when you know you didn't deserve it? "

My answer is yes, and it was one of the most profound things to ever happen to me.

To answer your question to me, yes I have been ripped off. Sometimes I let it slide, sometimes not. I have learned to be very careful exacting revenge, especially if it is something that cannot be undone.

I am not perfect and as such I must cut others a bit of slack sometimes. But the police have never administered true justice to my knowledge, at least in my lifetime. It's not their job. I have actually taken my revenge, and found out later I was wrong. That kinda gets to a person. Judge not lest ye be judged ? I know EXACTLY what that means. No I didn't kill anyone here, but I still can't undo it.

Judge not, unless ye are prepared for the consequences of being WRONG. And that is no joke.

T^T

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 3:48:28 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"I agree with your last statement absolutely."

Which was ?

" will also add that when you marry your criminal justice system to your revenue generating system, you diminish "justice". "

Indeed. When they fine somebody ten grand, do you know where that money goes ? Well it certainly doesn't go to the victims. It doesn't even really go to the government, at least on a local level. What are fines ?

Well they are not fine, regardless the fact that I have paid many whoppers. For the rich they are a slap on the wrist, for the rest it penalizes their dependents. If the money actually went to the victims it would be a different story, but it isn't.

And let's take this a step further. Remember the punk in Singapore who got caned ? Let's explore that for a moment. The world got up in arms about this cruel and unusual punishment. Well I am all for it and I will tell you why. He commited a crime in that country. I have no control over their laws, but they are harsh, you could go to jail for spitting on the sidewalk I heard.

But we got this kid came from another country and commited vandalism. We don't like that so we usually whip their ass and they generally don't do it agian. But the world is against this. So as a judge over there I would say "Since our method of punishment is unacceptable to the country where this offender was spawned, we will instead punish him in their fashion, therefore he will spend two years in our jail. In a place wehrer he doesn't know anyone, nor maybe even the language, where we can steal from him twenty four months of his young life and he will wear a criminal record for the rest of his life".

Understand ? The whole idea of justice is flawed. Jails are not the answer, that should be clear by now. You take away years of breadwinning and taxpaying doing that. I say let the punishment be severe, and quick. Beat the fuckhead to within an inch of his life, it doesn't take that long. He can be back into society reformed and productive. He can take care of his obligations after recovery.

I heard in the old west they didn't put you in jail for beating your Wife, but if you kept it up things happened. You would be greeted by your neighbors and about a half dozen of them would beat the living shit out of you. But the crops got planted and the cows milked, once you were again able, instead of being locked away, bitter and unproductive for perhaps decades.

My buddy has an idea for the death penalty. Not that it should be inflicted all the time, but when it is..... The offender is in prison, and undergoes a total exam, for TISSUE MATCHES. Every time someone needs an organ they get to donate. Doesn't work too well after the second kidney but think of all the other spare parts. Need a skin graft ? How about an eye or an arm. And put it on cable ! Let people know that YOU DON'T DO THIS SHIT. Fast, cheap and simple.

Fast cheap and simple are the buzzwords that sell today, I don't see why they don't do it right now. Not saying that it is right or wrong, hell, when did they ever care ?

But just how do those who are evil judge ?

Look around.

T^T

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 6:41:47 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

Fast cheap and simple are the buzzwords that sell today, I don't see why they don't do it right now. Not saying that it is right or wrong, hell, when did they ever care ?

yeh that is what people today and yesterday for that matter use as their rock solid standing on issues *gag*

But just how do those who are evil judge ?



we elect them!

electing them grants them authority within some circle on a map to be da boss.  those we do not elect are appointed by someone else who we do elect.

Then of course they have their investments in the name of "The People" to the tune of 110 trillion in profits as put out in the CAFR funds and another off book accounting estimated at close to 90 trillion more. 

The 110 is right off of their accounting.  I posted it several times and it always lands on very deaf ears.

Now take cities that have enough in their piggy bank to be self insured.  When you sue them where do you think that money comes from if you win?  Yep their retirement/benefits funds.

Where is the incentive to run the shop for the average joe out here?  zippo nada!  welcome to the modern nazi regime.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 6:46:11 PM   
lockedaway


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Status: offline 		Yes, you have to define your terms.  "Fundamentalist Religion" is a label that means nothing.  Defining your terms is integral to any system of law.  The term "Fundamentalist Religion" undefined would certainly be "void for vagueness".

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 6:49:33 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		"My buddy has an idea for the death penalty. Not that it should be inflicted all the time, but when it is..... The offender is in prison, and undergoes a total exam, for TISSUE MATCHES. Every time someone needs an organ they get to donate. Doesn't work too well after the second kidney but think of all the other spare parts"

I like your friend's idea.  I have a friend from the Slovak Republic who told me that in Russia, if you got stencened to death, they made you work in the uranium mines until you died.  Which normally didn't take all that long.  That, of course, would go far beyond our notion of "cruel and unusual punishment" but I think it is a lot better than having someone sit in prison for 20-40 years at $36,000.00 per year at the taxpayer's expense, not including public defender fees and costs of court.

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 7:03:42 PM   
lockedaway


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Status: offline 		"go in for a traffic ticket and ask for mercy LOL"

You must not be from the United States.  You get mercy all the time in New Jersey.  Remember, there are 50 states, thousands of municipalities, half dozen different types of courts in each State and then the Federal system.  In New Jersey you get 3 different diversions from either conviction or jail time with regard to third degree felonies.  You can get a myriad of plea arrangements with all motor vehicle offenses except those involving drugs and/or alcohol.  Even crimes where the punishment should, logically, be death, a person gets 25 years.  It is mercy to the point of being unmerciful to society.

But then think of how many people it employs.  

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 7:22:04 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

hi Panda

How much mercy did the Germans feel for the Jews...or the Jews for the Palestinians...The Japanese for the Chinese...The colonials for the Indian or slave…on and on.

All these societies had or have a justice system essential for their existence yet showed little mercy for other peoples.


But none of those societies were without mercy. All of them sometimes - even often - acted in ways that were not merciful, but they're not examples of society "without mercy."


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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 7:24:53 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		We all want justice, but we pray for mercy.

(with apologies to Terry Pratchett)

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 7:38:59 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Yes I was generalizing...and as NorthernGent has pointed out he means this discussion only at a personal level. But as we know there are always individual actions that vary but there is also a generality of actions that truly describe a society... and in this way of thinking then there have been many societies without mercy.

Butch

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 7:42:26 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy.

Merchant of Venice, IV.i

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 7:46:49 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Justice is not justice unless tempered with mercy, and mercy is meaningless without justice. You can't value one without cherishing the other.



Which of course is not the question I asked. Of course you can value both justice and mercy, I certainly do.

But, when push comes to shove, and you're in a position where you have to choose between them, which do you choose.


There is no answer, then. It's like asking, "If you're in a position where a blonde is flirting with you, and a redhead is flirting with you, which one do you go home with?" Depends on the blonde and depends on the redhead. Your hypothetical allows for an infinite number of possible scenarios, and no thinking person can really give a reliable, definitive answer. I'm intrigued by the topic, but I don't see how it can be discussed in absolute terms.



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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 7:56:03 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Which is more important to you?

As observed throughout the discussion so far, this is a complex topic encompassing a potentially large number of different cases.  In putting the question, are you envisioning a  particular type of situation?

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 8:09:28 PM   
dcnovice


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Status: offline 		When I was an exchange student in England (1983-84), I had a poster in my room with a quote from Pope Paul VI: "If you want peace, work for justice."

A wise Indian friend said it would be better to say "If you want peace, work for mercy."

If memory serves (and it's been a while), his argument centered on how the two pursuits (of justice, of mercy) affect us. The pursuit of justice can mire us in our own selves and wants. It also keeps us constantly judging others to see what they "justly" deserve. The pursuit of mercy, on other other hand, presses us beyond our boundaries, to think of others' needs (however unworthy) and how we might help meet them.

Food for thought. Ymmv.



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it's never enough to keep up.

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 8:09:35 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		PS... Panda...great avatar...did you make it?

Butch

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 8:13:39 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		They are both related and you can't have one without the other. If one of them is missing the other is applied poorly.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Which is more important to you?


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Profile   Post #: 80
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