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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/9/2011 8:58:16 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Justice is not justice unless tempered with mercy, and mercy is meaningless without justice. You can't value one without cherishing the other.



Which of course is not the question I asked. Of course you can value both justice and mercy, I certainly do.

But, when push comes to shove, and you're in a position where you have to choose between them, which do you choose.


There is no answer, then. It's like asking, "If you're in a position where a blonde is flirting with you, and a redhead is flirting with you, which one do you go home with?" Depends on the blonde and depends on the redhead. Your hypothetical allows for an infinite number of possible scenarios, and no thinking person can really give a reliable, definitive answer. I'm intrigued by the topic, but I don't see how it can be discussed in absolute terms.





It skirts that fine edge of rhetoric.

The home of justice is in law.

There is a damn good reason that in the bible they warn you not to go before the judge.

All you need to do in law is prove the fact.

For instance, lets use the IRS sleight of hand that gets everyone tossed in the can.

They take you to court for "Failure to file".

So "Failure to file" is before the court for judgment.

The defendant comes in and says hey I do not have to file I am title 15, sec 26 exempt blah blah blah....

The court lets you spend a zillion dollars and you are guilty because it is a court of law, not the exchequer!  Did he or did he not file?  No! guilty!  Next!  The fact that title 26 is not public law is completely irrelevant!  There are lots of twists that, that I omitted but that is basically what is going on there.

Justice comes down to a set of rules that have no CONSCIENCE".  The closest you can come to conscience in a court is the exchequer that the king set up to hear cases of the aggrieved that had no remedy in law.  They forgot to have one here in america however.

I digress....

So justice is a harsh set of rules that does not deal its cards with conscience.  People who throw themselves at the mercy or the court do not realize its a contradiction in terms.

On the other hand, mercy is a matter of conscience born out of love and compassion.

I agree there is no legitimately functional means of comparing the two.








_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 1:03:55 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Yes I was generalizing...and as NorthernGent has pointed out he means this discussion only at a personal level. But as we know there are always individual actions that vary but there is also a generality of actions that truly describe a society... and in this way of thinking then there have been many societies without mercy.

Butch


The OP was really about posters' preference rather than any view on historical undertaking of justice and mercy. You, what you think, or feel, not what other people think.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 1:12:29 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Which is more important to you?

As observed throughout the discussion so far, this is a complex topic encompassing a potentially large number of different cases.  In putting the question, are you envisioning a  particular type of situation?



No. Although on reading Panda's post I can see a potential issue.

Some people need a defined scenario in order to make sense of a quandry. Seems there are a few on here, fair enough.

Me? I'm happy to have two principles and go from there.

So, in short, I'm not providing a defined scenario. I'm asking poster/s to use your imagination to come up with a scenario that is close to your heart - a scenario where you'd have to choose between the two values when deciding a course of action.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 1:21:28 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Which is more important to you?


Maybe a better question, NorthernGent: What is your Alignment?

As your answer would well be within and of the 'Good' Alignments. Each of them view justice in different ways, but not in a manner that would be for evil intent or result. I've played D&D for a long, long time. 'Good' Alignment groups tend to have parties that generally get along with each other. They may have their differences, but when the chips are down, they fight against the evil that exists.

"Evil Feeds Apon Itself" is a common reality among the evil alignment groups. Sooner or later (usually sooner), one or more members of the party plot to remove the others from the game, while keeping their loot. Its very hard for this sort of group to stick together, as they usually have very little principles, or reasons to work together for 'the benefit of the group'. They constantly scheme for 'one upmanship' and usually have a 'zero-sum' outlook on life. Not to mention trying to convince everyone to work together for 'the benefit of that one person'.

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 1:26:08 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"Anyone ever shown you real kindness when you know you didn't deserve it? "

My answer is yes, and it was one of the most profound things to ever happen to me.

To answer your question to me, yes I have been ripped off. Sometimes I let it slide, sometimes not. I have learned to be very careful exacting revenge, especially if it is something that cannot be undone.

I am not perfect and as such I must cut others a bit of slack sometimes. But the police have never administered true justice to my knowledge, at least in my lifetime. It's not their job. I have actually taken my revenge, and found out later I was wrong. That kinda gets to a person. Judge not lest ye be judged ? I know EXACTLY what that means. No I didn't kill anyone here, but I still can't undo it.

Judge not, unless ye are prepared for the consequences of being WRONG. And that is no joke.

T^T


Revenge and justice appear to be linked for you, T, and I can see why that would be the case.

Me, revenge is not something I practice, perhaps in part due to focusing on the future rather than present realities - once it's done it's done and revenge can't help me - and in part because I take absolutely no pleasure in exacting revenge.

And when you say one of the most profound things to have happened to you, yes, I personally find it spiritually uplifting to practice and be granted mercy, whereas justice is a system to enable us to coexist - perhaps one comes from the head and the other from the heart.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 1:34:13 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Which is more important to you?


Maybe a better question, NorthernGent: What is your Alignment?

As your answer would well be within and of the 'Good' Alignments. Each of them view justice in different ways, but not in a manner that would be for evil intent or result. I've played D&D for a long, long time. 'Good' Alignment groups tend to have parties that generally get along with each other. They may have their differences, but when the chips are down, they fight against the evil that exists.

"Evil Feeds Apon Itself" is a common reality among the evil alignment groups. Sooner or later (usually sooner), one or more members of the party plot to remove the others from the game, while keeping their loot. Its very hard for this sort of group to stick together, as they usually have very little principles, or reasons to work together for 'the benefit of the group'. They constantly scheme for 'one upmanship' and usually have a 'zero-sum' outlook on life. Not to mention trying to convince everyone to work together for 'the benefit of that one person'.



Any question/post providing a spot of insight can only help.

Are you saying that the desire to grant mercy is born out of a strict adherence to personal values and principles, as opposed to a systematic standard that applies to all (e.g. justice)? or something entirely different?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 2:41:49 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		"Revenge and justice appear to be linked for you, T, and I can see why that would be the case."

I cannot disagree. Many people did many bad things in my life, not all to me or anything, in fact I think I was abused less than most. When you are seven years old and your Father walks in at midnight, takes a piss on the encyclopedia which you almost love, when the TV set goes flying through the room when you are four, when you are eleven and Dad fires a gun out the car window at nobody in particular, you stop and think.

When your background made you so unstable that you wouldn't even trust yourself, you either get a grip on life or you don't. You must not care, because caring would kill you. When you get there, life and death no longer matter. Strangely, I think at that point someone is getting ready to be able to judge. To remove yourself from certain things and decide on facts. But then to realize the facts do not tell all. That you could be wrong, and that will fuck with your head until the day you die.

You can trust me with anything, as long as we have the agreement. You can leave a trillion dollars here and I swear not more than a few million will be missing. Don't worry about it. But folks like us, I'll handle your money, your family including kids, even some bitch of an olady you got hiding, with the utmost of care. That is what came to me - the concept of trust.

The only crimes that really exist are breaches of trust. The rest ? Well they get over on you, you get over on them. Dude ripped me off, people call for him. I got through to a person once and decided to do something. It is not likely to help, but it can't hurt me.

He lived with me, as a guest for almost a year. He stole from me here and there and my connections caught him. He had used my CC for something I did not OK and it was sixty bucks. So what. But it is the principle. He had to go. Went he did with my only DVD player, the money out of my wallet and who knows what else. But this was over six months ago and they still keep calling on the phone for him.

My action ? I thought it out. They were calling in reference to a hospital bill he owes, $12,000. I paid it with my CC. Now as of February this year, I have no debts, but also no credit, so the card number is no good. I put it in anyway. Why ? Let them come asking, what will they ask ? Who used MY numbers for a fraudulent transaction ? Damifino. It was put in on DTMF, not voice, what will they think ? He has a history of using my CC when it was good against my wishes and I got local people to back it up. Any questions - he loses. He has no idea what he lost by not leaving me on good terms.

But that never hit the fan.( he did pay back the $60, but that don't cut it) I never did anything, this was just a transaction that didn't go through, but I have the upper hand everywhere now. And while I didn't hang him, he hung himself. Not literally yet, but he has neutralized himself. Last I heard last week is he beat the shit out of his olady and smashed a car window right in front of a little kid. That is assault and battery and child endangerment in this town, and he wil not be heard from again for a long time. No, they didn't get him yet but until they bust him he will not be in MY town. 

I could make two phone calls and make his life so bad he would wish that I would shoot him. But instead I gave him enough rope. Karma really does work. I do have other examples but I don't have all day.

I'll tell you this much, with my help he could beat all the new charges down to the point he wouldn't have to worry about it. But he does not have my help. He was with me when I got my DUI, and when they turned me loose and I got a ride I called his cellphone to see if he needed a ride, because he didn'y have any warrants at the time they let him go, and I thought he was walking home. He said "How the fuck did you get out ? ". Well let's not go into that, I was out. No bail, just out.

He was with me when I got busted, we both had weed and neither one of us got busted for it. He does not understand how much discretion a police office can use. I've known others to use alot more in the old days.

So whatever you think and all that, this is a discussion, and even if you don't like the fact that I have played the system for the wrong reasons, I can report factually that justice in America is for those with enough money and the proper place to put it.

I will. That says it. I will poision the water table in an area, I will blow off a nuke, I can shoot my Mom in the head, as well as anyone else. I actually won't, but it is not because of some outside imposed tenet. I couldn't really give a fuck less, but the thing is;

I don't ever want to hurt again.

What tenet of law or religion could ever transcend that ? I know the answer.

T^T

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 7:26:25 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Revenge and justice appear to be linked for you, T, and I can see why that would be the case.


Its linked in the etymological english dictionary too.

justify, avenge, revenge, justification, vindication, performing the office of vengeance, all syn's



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 7:28:39 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Which is more important to you?

As observed throughout the discussion so far, this is a complex topic encompassing a potentially large number of different cases.  In putting the question, are you envisioning a  particular type of situation?



No. Although on reading Panda's post I can see a potential issue.

Some people need a defined scenario in order to make sense of a quandry. Seems there are a few on here, fair enough.

Me? I'm happy to have two principles and go from there.

So, in short, I'm not providing a defined scenario. I'm asking poster/s to use your imagination to come up with a scenario that is close to your heart - a scenario where you'd have to choose between the two values when deciding a course of action.


Then my answer would have to be that I can't imagine any such scenario. The two qualities are inextricably linked, inseparable. You can't choose one or the other any more than you can choose between coffee with cream or coffee with sugar once the cream and the sugar are both stirred into the cup. I think I know what you're asking, but I can't see any way to set this up as an "either/or" scenario.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 7:30:14 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Which is more important to you?


Maybe a better question, NorthernGent: What is your Alignment?



he wants the equivalent of people to apply feelings to mathematics.

The only people that will be capable of doing such a feat are those who are incapable of making that distinction.

another approach would be a to determine if there were a way to incorporates one into the other and that has already been done (at least a little) in the exchequer courts.

Unfortunately it was never designed to be a jury court but at the whim of the king and as I said earlier america after the commercial take over in 1861 thought it unnecessary to even have the common law courts much less anything that resembled conscience.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/10/2011 7:33:51 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 7:44:18 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Which is more important to you?

As observed throughout the discussion so far, this is a complex topic encompassing a potentially large number of different cases.  In putting the question, are you envisioning a  particular type of situation?



No. Although on reading Panda's post I can see a potential issue.

Some people need a defined scenario in order to make sense of a quandry. Seems there are a few on here, fair enough.

Me? I'm happy to have two principles and go from there.

So, in short, I'm not providing a defined scenario. I'm asking poster/s to use your imagination to come up with a scenario that is close to your heart - a scenario where you'd have to choose between the two values when deciding a course of action.


Then my answer would have to be that I can't imagine any such scenario. The two qualities are inextricably linked, inseparable. You can't choose one or the other any more than you can choose between coffee with cream or coffee with sugar once the cream and the sugar are both stirred into the cup. I think I know what you're asking, but I can't see any way to set this up as an "either/or" scenario.



a 19 year old is dating a 17 year old.
the 19 yo plans on marrying the 17 yo.
the 19 yo gets the 17 yo pregnant.
they both tell you they are in love and want the kid and want to be married.

what do you do? 

what does the state do?

true story btw






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 8:13:43 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		I buy them a toaster and a nice card.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 8:46:56 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I buy them a toaster and a nice card.


yup me too!

Do you want to know what the STATE OF WISCONSIN did?

They took it upon themselves to prosecute the male for statutory rape against the protests of the lovers, the parents, and eventually the community at large.

"Justice" is nothing more than a rule book and may as well have a computer as judge as there is no mercy in a court though I assure you they put on a great show to make it "appear" that way.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 9:10:57 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

The OP was really about posters' preference rather than any view on historical undertaking of justice and mercy. You, what you think, or feel, not what other people think.


NorthernGent...OK I understand...I think

What I'm about to say will sound like I'm making light of your question... I'm not and I've really done this many times and even thought of your question while I've done it.

I have ants...damn them...little bitty ones that only live in my bathroom. They do not swarm and I only see one or two at a time crawling across the floor or on my shower wall. Now considering they are eating something, not sure what, justice would call them thieves and they would deserve the death penalty.

But if I can I show them mercy...I put my finger down and let them climb on... open the bathroom window and send them unharmed on their way. To them I am a Saint I'm sure and I'm also sure I am starting to recognize individuals that are coming back again and again.

I am the kind of person that if I can I will not kill a fly...I will always show mercy...except for those damn blood sucking ticks...a lit cigarette up the ass for them...at least when I smoked.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/10/2011 9:21:44 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm also sure I am starting to recognize individuals that are coming back again and again.

Okay, now you've got me worried.

K.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/12/2011 5:52:01 AM   
Real0ne


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so basically,

TODAY...... justice has little to do with what is true, in fact the legislatures have set it up so that everything ON THEIR SIDE is presumed while any defense has to be proven.

In fact they even have it in the Wisconsin stats, a long list of presumptions.  

That IS GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT!

guilty by presumption is tyranny of the democracy, the democracy that was supposed to be so fair.

Justice has nothing to do with truth and fairness, it has everything to do with lots of money to defeat the presumptions of the state or court.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/12/2011 8:07:02 AM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline 		~fr~

Justice is balance, therefore, always merciful; which shouldn’t be confused with leniency. Seeking anything more is revenge; a product of hate.

Laws are rules made up by man, to be used by man; in some cases, to help achieve balance, in others, to get revenge.

Now, if you want to change the choices to ‘Revenge or Leniency’, I’ll go with leniency; seeking revenge is unhealthy for one’s own wellbeing.

Kim


_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

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RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/12/2011 11:01:37 AM   
joether


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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Which is more important to you?

Maybe a better question, NorthernGent: What is your Alignment?

he wants the equivalent of people to apply feelings to mathematics.

The only people that will be capable of doing such a feat are those who are incapable of making that distinction.

another approach would be a to determine if there were a way to incorporates one into the other and that has already been done (at least a little) in the exchequer courts.

Unfortunately it was never designed to be a jury court but at the whim of the king and as I said earlier america after the commercial take over in 1861 thought it unnecessary to even have the common law courts much less anything that resembled conscience.


Isn't it nice when the Chaotic Neutral person talks on this forum?

When you arrive back to reality from.....where ever....you are now, please inform us RO, ok? As your post, typically like 90% of the others, has nothing to do with the person your responding to. Hence...why your a CN aligned person.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/12/2011 5:14:40 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		well should I ever become possessed to completely lose all credibility I will follow in your footsteps and base psychology on on fucking dengeons and dragons.






quote:

In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game, alignment is a categorization of the ethical and moral perspective of people, creatures and societies. Early editions of Dungeons & Dragons allowed players to choose between three alignments when creating a character: lawful, implying honor and respect for society's rules; chaotic, implying the opposite; and neutral, meaning neither. Advanced Dungeons & Dragons introduced a second axis of good, neutral and evil, offering a combination of nine alignments.[1][2]




have you considered studying history?






_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Justice or Mercy - 4/12/2011 9:48:48 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
In fact some people even get ill when face to face with the REAL HISTORY of this country.  truth is such a  BITCH!

There is the constitution and bor etc.  There was a HUGE FRAUD perpetrated on the American people, not only in the 14th that I have posted in the last post but see if you can find it.....

you really gotta hate it when ya get yer ass kicked by fucking conspiracy "theorists" eh!    LMFAO

See if your ADD can handle finding the other one in there. 

Oh and that is a certified copy btw so enjoy!




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/12/2011 10:15:36 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 100
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