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Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 4:23:35 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline 		I know, I know...About a thousand findom threads are started each week here on CM's message boards. What's the use in posting another one? I guess I really just want to get some perspective on what finacial domination is, what's in it for the findoms and finsubs, and why it bothers so many people, including myself. When I first started hanging around here, I was vehemently against financial domination. I viewed financial dominants as lazy sleaze bags who suckered the desperate out of their hard earned cash. But in the time I've been here, I've learned that this is not the case. There is a kink for absolutely everything, and there are no exceptions to this rule. Someone, somewhere, gets off on buying chicks free stuff, and I've come to accept that. Furthermore, I've come to know several findoms on this site that I respect, like blushes, for example. So, why does it still bother me so much?

#1. In the several months that I've been on CM, during which I've regularly perved profiles, I've never once seen a male sub proclaim that he actually wants to buy a chick lots and lots of stuff. I've seen male subs proclaim that they will pay tribute if necessary, but I've never seen it listed as a kink. And yet, I've seen posts on here describing almost every other obscure fetish imaginable: Crucifixion, farting, diapers, stomach impalement, and more recently, chips up the bum. If there are really enough finsubs out there to support the hundreds of findoms with clients, how come I've never seen one? Considering just how many findoms there are, and how few finsubs I've run into, I have to ask...whose supporting all the findoms? Finsubs, or men who can't get a women to look them in the eye unless they have a fancy new credit card and pretty paycheck? In other words, how much financial domination is actually financial domination, and how much of it is regular old phone sex? I keep hearing, over and over again, that there are finsubs all over the place. But I just don't see the evidence. If a car salesman told me that everyone and his mother was buying some New Model X, but I never saw one on the road, do you think I'd believe him?

#2. On another thread concerning financial domination, several findoms came forward, bragging about how they never, ever had to work. As if sitting in your house, eating and sleeping all day, was something to be proud of. Now, I know that not all findoms see clients as free meal tickets. I know that there are some findoms out there who, you know, actually work to satisfy their clients and who see their domination as a job. Never-the-less, it still bothers me that so many professionals brag about how little they have to do on a day-to-day basis, as if laziness is a virtue. Hey, even if I were a billionaire, I'd get bored doing nothing all day. I find it hard to respect those findoms who don't get bored by nothingness.

#3. In my pursuit of some, you know, info on financial domination, I ran across a bunch of stuff that absolutely sickened me. For example, forced intoxication sessions? The f*ck is that? Sessions where you force your sub to get drunk, and then ask him to buy you stuff. How is THAT safe, sane, or consensual? It isn't. End of story. What about all the findoms who legitimately blackmail clients? Or proclamations by proposed findoms, arguing that "I don't give a sh*t if you can't pay your bills. Mine come first." Is that part of catering to your client, or being an awful person?

All of this stuff seems to be why financial domination bugs me so much. Because even if there are a few ethical, hardworking, legitimate findoms, most findoms seem to be regular old high school graduates who want a free meal ticket and don't care about anyone but themselves. It's never good to generalize but, given this, I can see why we get so many complaints against findoms each week.

So, I guess I just want to hear from actual, professional findoms. What do you get out of this? What do you do to ensure that your client gets what he pays for? Do you see yourself as a goddess who is entitled to your pay pigs' money, or do you view your domination as a career, with a fair exchange of goods and services? What do your subs seem to get out of this? What ethical standards do you hold yourself to, if any, to ensure that you don't push your clients into financial trouble?

And to the finsubs out there---if you are out there---what is your perspective on this?

I really just want to understand all this, because I know that while I may feel squick about financial domination, others feel squick about my wanting to be tied up and whipped, and probably think its due to an insecurity. I feel the best way to help me through the squick is to understand a kink I just don't get. I know I'll probably get slammed for starting this thread, but hey, they say curiosity did kill the cat.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 4:32:32 PM   
mummyman321


Posts: 2102
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Dusseldorf
Status: offline 		And what I have just read is.....you do not like this.....you do not like that.....blah blah blah.....

Sorry....the BDSM community encompasses a lot of people. Some people like being Fin Dommes, some like eating shit, some like being pisses on, some like serving, some like dressing up in women's clothes, some like to beat the hell out of thier sub.....and the list goes on.

I would focus on what it is you are seeking and quit worrying about what others do. Your kink is not my kink. This is a free site and all people of all types are welcome here.

_____________________________

Life - Its not about where you are but about the journey to get there - I prefer to choose the road less traveled

(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 4:38:17 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline
quote:

And what I have just read is.....you do not like this.....you do not like that.....blah blah blah.....

Sorry....the BDSM community encompasses a lot of people. Some people like being Fin Dommes, some like eating shit, some like being pisses on, some like serving, some like dressing up in women's clothes, some like to beat the hell out of thier sub.....and the list goes on.

I would focus on what it is you are seeking and quit worrying about what others do. Your kink is not my kink. This is a free site and all people of all types are welcome here.


I agree completely. That's why I started this thread. I want to get some perspective from those who have a kink vastly different from my own, so that I can understand it better. If someone asked me why I get a kick out of being tied up and slapped around, rather than be offended, I'd try to answer honestly.

Let the bludgeoning continue! I am a masochist, after all!

(in reply to mummyman321)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 4:50:18 PM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		You really really don't get the concept of consensuality do you? Both sides are consenting to do this, it's not one person taking advantage of another so all of your concerns here are first of all personal ones, and secondly they are moot, because they are consensual. Quite honestly, and said gently, who cares if you don't get it or not? These people will carry on with doing what they want.

I agree with Mummyman, this is all about you and what you don't like, I don't understand why you are passing judgement on things and kind of masking it as asking for information on it?

For the record, I think financial slavery is odd, I understand why others may like it, I do think some do it looking for a free ride, and I find that reflects negatively on their character- but if someone genuinely wants to pay for this service I could give a rat's ass why or if they support a city of lazy women by doing so. Viva la difference and all that, I don't really care what others do. I'll look for those of good moral character to interact with on my own personal time, that's my choice. I'm sure the world won 't stop turning depending on how I see the activities of others.

(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 4:50:24 PM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline 		There is no such thing as "financial domination".  You do not dominate someone by demanding they give you stuff.  Financial dommes are leeches and their subs are what are known as suckers.

It's not a kink, merely the same desperation which causes other men to seek out other types of whore.

< Message edited by Awareness -- 1/14/2012 4:51:04 PM >

_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 5:00:22 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline 		Double post...My bad.

< Message edited by HisPet21 -- 1/14/2012 5:03:59 PM >

(in reply to Awareness)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 5:02:36 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: HisPet21

quote:

You really really don't get the concept of consensuality do you? Both sides are consenting to do this, it's not one person taking advantage of another so all of your concerns here are first of all personal ones, and secondly they are moot, because they are consensual


Part of my point, which was probably not conveyed perfectly, was that I don't believe financial domination IS always consensual. Take the forced intoxication sessions I mentioned. Do you honestly believe that an intoxicated person is in any position to consent to, say, sending out a $500 Amazon Gift Card on command? Don't most dungeons limit the number of drinks patrons are allowed to have, or even refuse to serve alcohol, to ENSURE consensual activities?

What about vulnerable finsubs who get involved with unethical findoms? Isn't there a thread going on about the difference between FORCE and force as we speak? If a finsub gets involved with a findom who demands tribute in excess of his means, how is that consensual, especially if said finsub has become attached to the findom. Doesn't that count as coercion?

I specifically asked about the measures professional, ethical findoms---who I have no problem with, btw---take to ensure the safety of their clients. I was under the impression that discussion of professional ethics was not taboo. I am genuinely curious, and given that so many people seem to be taken advantage of by unethical persons, wished to explain WHY I understand the complaints so many have against financial domination, and why it has such a bed rep, even if there are perfectly happy findoms and subs, which I am aware of.


(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 5:07:06 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Take what you read online with a grain of salt and stop trying to rescue people.

Personally when I read about stuff that may or may not be consensual or whatever I just shrug my shoulders. I don't know anyone here in person so I don't take any of it seriously. The only people I worry about are me and my own.

So it's not your thing and you think it's wrong. There's tons of things I think are wrong but I can't save every person and I look at people here as adults. They make their own decisions and they either sink or swim.




_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 5:10:39 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline
quote:

There's tons of things I think are wrong but I can't save every person and I look at people here as adults. They make their own decisions and they either sink or swim.


Good point.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 5:25:18 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Regarding point number one, there are actually many men who call themselves pay piggies, or fin subs or whatever. The interesting thing here is that most who claim it, aren't. The ones who are, are generally quiet about their fetish, except to those they serve. Quite a dichotomy, but true nonetheless.

Point number two; the reason many ladies do this is that they want to be seen as spoiled and unaffected by whether or not someone tributes them. Many of us are, actually. *I* personally, do talk to mine, but they pay for the pleasure, and that can be called "work". Until you've done it, you don't know and can't begin to guess.

Number three; do you really believe "forced" intoxication is actually "forced" and "intoxicated"? Some who have fetishes enjoy being "forced" to participate in them. That way it is not their fault.

Financial domination used to bug me as well. How dare those women take advantage of those poor innocent men? Until I realized that money is the ultimate form of power and findom is the ultimate power exchange.

If you're not into it, be well, and focus on what you like. But don't worry about the men (or women...there are some) who have this particular fetish. They get just as much out of it as the people they are playing with.



_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 5:29:43 PM   
Tristan


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline 		Many like to defend practices such as findom as consensual.  A better justification is simply that there is nothing you can do about it.  Much of what happens here and in life is not free of corrosion.  For example, for years, one of my coworkers completely supported his wife who refused to do anything except play video games all day.  He wanted to keep his family together until the kids were grown.  She knew that he would not divorce her, and took advantage of that fact.  Findoms know that there is a surplus of male subs, and they are mostly taking advantage of those male subs who are desperate for a domme's attention.  Is this ethical...no.  I just don't think there is anything anyone can do about it

(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 5:33:00 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline
quote:

Financial domination used to bug me as well. How dare those women take advantage of those poor innocent men? Until I realized that money is the ultimate form of power and findom is the ultimate power exchange.


That's a really good point, blushes. I've never really thought about it that way. I really appreciate your perspective, and was hoping you'd chime in eventually.

BTW, I looked at your blog and loved it. It's good to know how much trouble some findoms go to in order to cater to their clients. My guess is that it takes a lot of hard work to put that blog out, while maintaining the dominant persona and making shout outs to special clients.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 5:52:53 PM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HisPet21
Part of my point, which was probably not conveyed perfectly, was that I don't believe financial domination IS always consensual. Take the forced intoxication sessions I mentioned. Do you honestly believe that an intoxicated person is in any position to consent to, say, sending out a $500 Amazon Gift Card on command? Don't most dungeons limit the number of drinks patrons are allowed to have, or even refuse to serve alcohol, to ENSURE consensual activities?

What about vulnerable finsubs who get involved with unethical findoms? Isn't there a thread going on about the difference between FORCE and force as we speak? If a finsub gets involved with a findom who demands tribute in excess of his means, how is that consensual, especially if said finsub has become attached to the findom. Doesn't that count as coercion?

I specifically asked about the measures professional, ethical findoms---who I have no problem with, btw---take to ensure the safety of their clients. I was under the impression that discussion of professional ethics was not taboo. I am genuinely curious, and given that so many people seem to be taken advantage of by unethical persons, wished to explain WHY I understand the complaints so many have against financial domination, and why it has such a bed rep, even if there are perfectly happy findoms and subs, which I am aware of.




Well, at the risk of being redundant, it still seems that you don't understand consensuality. Explain to me how someone can take your money without you giving to them? Lets use the example you brought up of forced intoxication. The alcohol gets drunk by the person drinking it. If he doesn't drink it he won't get drunk. He does drink it, therefore he consents to that and to whatever happens when he is drunk. Anyone undergoing 'forced intoxication' with a Domme that wants money knows where that is going. This happens to me, I don;t go down the cookie aisle of the grocery story, I know if I do cookies will end up in my basket. I eliminate the possibility by not allowing it in my vicinity.

All of us that have ever drunk alcohol know what happens once we let it into our mouths and what will happen to us. These men being 'forced' are getting exactly what they want and what they have asked for. Unless someone manages to tie you down and puts in  an IV containing alcohol into your vein, you have indeed consented to drink that alcohol, and you do know that it will impair you because that is what alcohol does. It's like a kid saying his friends made him do something, and the parent says "I see, did they hold a gun to your head?" Meaning that the kid was free to walk away at any point.

A "vulnerable" sub getting involved with an "unethical" findomme is poppycock. If he gives the woman money then he gives it to her. This happens everyday in the vanilla world where people try to get money from you and you decide or not to give it to them. Sure, emotions can play into it but it is you that decides in the end like any other adult. Sometimes we regret what we do, sometimes not. It's a fact of life that others will try to take our money and they might do it by using whatever resources they have - emotions or otherwise. People learn not to give money in an emotional state or prepare for being broke all their lives because that stuff is not limited to BDSM. Coercion? I'd say not. It's still an adult making a decision on something he or she owns.

Hopefully you will get the answers you seek then from others, I didnt' seem to shed much light on this for you.

(in reply to HisPet21)
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RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 6:02:32 PM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan

Many like to defend practices such as findom as consensual.  A better justification is simply that there is nothing you can do about it.  Much of what happens here and in life is not free of corrosion.  For example, for years, one of my coworkers completely supported his wife who refused to do anything except play video games all day.  He wanted to keep his family together until the kids were grown.  She knew that he would not divorce her, and took advantage of that fact.  Findoms know that there is a surplus of male subs, and they are mostly taking advantage of those male subs who are desperate for a domme's attention.  Is this ethical...no.  I just don't think there is anything anyone can do about it



How is an adult deciding what to do with his money unethical? How do you actually force someone to open their wallet and hand over the bucks if there is no gun?

The guy supporting his wife is doing so for his own reasons, she only took advantage of something he was freely offering her. He could have stopped it. He chose to stay for the kids - that is free will and a choice on his part.

So there is a surplus of male subs, how does that drive a man so nuts that he feels compelled to go for the instant gratification rather than working harder to obtain a lifestyle Domme or puts his penis back in his pants? A man paying for attention has got to know what he is getting in the end, someone's attention that begins and ends with the money. We all want things, most adults know that they either work to make the dream happen or give it up.

(in reply to Tristan)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 6:22:58 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline
quote:

Lets use the example you brought up of forced intoxication. The alcohol gets drunk by the person drinking it. If he doesn't drink it he won't get drunk. He does drink it, therefore he consents to that and to whatever happens when he is drunk.


Isn't that a lot like saying that a women who gets intoxicated, and then is raped, consented to being raped? Granted, the men who get themselves intoxicated during these sessions, and are then screwed out of more money than they can afford, are partly responsible for what happens to them. Same goes for women who get drunk in an environment where they know predators lurk. But placing yourself in dangerous circumstances isn't the same as consenting to letting someone take advantage of you. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a single rapist in prison. This, to me, seems obvious.

Thus, I don't see any reason why I can't condemn a findom for taking advantage of a man she knows isn't in a proper state of mind.

quote:

A "vulnerable" sub getting involved with an "unethical" findomme is poppycock... This happens everyday in the vanilla world where people try to get money from you and you decide or not to give it to them.


Uh, no, it isn't poppycock. Vulnerable subs, everyday, decide to do idiotic things like have sex with doms they've never met. Or give face pics to findoms who'll use them as non-consensual blackmail. The fact that these scum bags prey on they naive doesn't make them any less scumbags. You can't knowingly give someone HIV and then, in court, argue, "Well, she was dumb enough not to ask for an STD report! It's not my fault she didn't ask!" That, my friend, is called a douchebag. And yeah, this happens all the time in the vanilla world. Do you think its okay to take advantage of people in the vanilla world?

quote:

The guy supporting his wife is doing so for his own reasons, she only took advantage of something he was freely offering her


What she did was use her own CHILDREN as leverage, in order to keep a man she didn't love around, so that he could support her. Instead of getting off her lazy, useless behind, like a REAL women, and getting a job, she trapped the father of her children in a loveless marriage. That isn't okay, no matter how you twist it around in your head. People who use their children to manipulate people and make money are sick, twisted, and perverted in the most disturbing ways. You may not have a problem with this. The rest of the universe does.


(in reply to lizi)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 6:25:49 PM   
Tristan


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline
quote:

How do you actually force someone to open their wallet and hand over the bucks if there is no gun?


How do you force someone to hand over their money even with a gun?  You give them a choice.  If you have the gun, you can argue that this is not an unfair choice because the "victim" should have had a gun too. 

(in reply to lizi)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 6:46:57 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HisPet21

quote:

Lets use the example you brought up of forced intoxication. The alcohol gets drunk by the person drinking it. If he doesn't drink it he won't get drunk. He does drink it, therefore he consents to that and to whatever happens when he is drunk.


Isn't that a lot like saying that a women who gets intoxicated, and then is raped, consented to being raped? Granted, the men who get themselves intoxicated during these sessions, and are then screwed out of more money than they can afford, are partly responsible for what happens to them. Same goes for women who get drunk in an environment where they know predators lurk. But placing yourself in dangerous circumstances isn't the same as consenting to letting someone take advantage of you. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a single rapist in prison. This, to me, seems obvious.

Thus, I don't see any reason why I can't condemn a findom for taking advantage of a man she knows isn't in a proper state of mind.

quote:

A "vulnerable" sub getting involved with an "unethical" findomme is poppycock... This happens everyday in the vanilla world where people try to get money from you and you decide or not to give it to them.


Uh, no, it isn't poppycock. Vulnerable subs, everyday, decide to do idiotic things like have sex with doms they've never met. Or give face pics to findoms who'll use them as non-consensual blackmail. The fact that these scum bags prey on they naive doesn't make them any less scumbags. You can't knowingly give someone HIV and then, in court, argue, "Well, she was dumb enough not to ask for an STD report! It's not my fault she didn't ask!" That, my friend, is called a douchebag. And yeah, this happens all the time in the vanilla world. Do you think its okay to take advantage of people in the vanilla world?

quote:

The guy supporting his wife is doing so for his own reasons, she only took advantage of something he was freely offering her


What she did was use her own CHILDREN as leverage, in order to keep a man she didn't love around, so that he could support her. Instead of getting off her lazy, useless behind, like a REAL women, and getting a job, she trapped the father of her children in a loveless marriage. That isn't okay, no matter how you twist it around in your head. People who use their children to manipulate people and make money are sick, twisted, and perverted in the most disturbing ways. You may not have a problem with this. The rest of the universe does.




You do know that these men call our "forced intoxication" lines, right?
Uhmmmm....
They are not innocent at all.
As far as *I* know, they're sitting at home drinking pineapple juice but pretending to become intoxicated because they want me to force them to...(insert unsavory action here)

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to HisPet21)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 6:49:33 PM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Oh, sorry, I just want to say one more thing.
Men calling a "forced intoxication" line and doing whatever it is we demand, is nothing like a woman going out and having a few (or more) drinks, and being taken advantage of.
One is totally consensual, the other is not.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to xxblushesxx)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 7:00:11 PM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		I would add something here, but I can't think of much other than to say how polite Blushes is being about this. Men into findom seek out women to feed their issues. If you don't like it don't take part in it. I spent two hours last night trying to explain to someone that though yes I can be a keyholder I don't his damn amazon gift cards, or new shoes, or his credit card number. The people that seek out findoms are no different than the ones that seek out someone to beat the daylights out of them. Stop feeling sorry for them and stop making moral judgements about those that do what they ask for.

*just my two cents*

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Why Financial Domination Bothers Me... - 1/14/2012 7:05:03 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline
quote:

Men calling a "forced intoxication" line and doing whatever it is we demand, is nothing like a woman going out and having a few (or more) drinks, and being taken advantage of.


I agree that there is a distinction between specifically calling a forced intoxication line and being taken advantage of. But if you aren't specifically calling a forced intoxication line---your findom is just trying to impose intoxication on you---I think its very similar to a predator getting a lady drunk at the bar. Though getting raped is, obviously, a lot worse than having your pockets cleaned.

Not going to lie, though. While I have no beef with other forms of financial domination between CONSENTING parties, with ETHICALLY minded findoms, I still have a problem with forced intoxication. Consent isn't a one time only deal. Consent is something that must be continuously given. A drunk finsub isn't capable of that kind of continuing consent if he is drunk. It'd be a different story, however, if the findom knew the client extremely well, and could end the session if things got too intense. And there are multiple ways that it could get too intense. What if the client is pushed to alcohol poisoning? Or offers to spend a $1,000 on a dom, when he can only afford $200? Do the findoms you know specifically look out for potential alcohol poisoning? Do they negotiate a spending limit before things begin? Or do they jump in blind, without considering the client's safety? Power exchange always has an element of danger, which needs to be accounted for. What ethical constraints do you, personally, operate under to ensure your client's mental, financial, and physical well being? Perhaps I could be put at ease if I knew the specifics.

(in reply to xxblushesxx)
Profile   Post #: 20
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