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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 11:48:06 AM

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Meaning message boards, especially those related to religion or politics, should be shut down because they are pointless as no one's opinion will be changed. Or at least that's how I read it.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 12:10:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Meaning message boards, especially those related to religion or politics, should be shut down because they are pointless as no one's opinion will be changed. Or at least that's how I read it.

All I'm saying is that religion is a personal and largely unfounded set of beliefs that one holds sacred each for their own reason, politics is a fairly tangible subject by comparison and you may be able to provide some measure of proof for what you have to say about it, meanwhile people can debate religion or the lackthereof and the proof or lack of proof of it all day long til they're blue in the face without ever being able to actually provide evidence on either side to support their claims that would actually be considered testable. So at the end of the day I personally believe that picking on one another over religion, freaking out over other's beliefs and their legitimacy is silly. Now if you were to argue that a certain religion has a negative effect on the human consciousness or something that can be proven, something that isn't just a vague insulting unfounded statement like "There is a problem with a string of child molestations by priests within catholicism" or, "isn't it bizarre how some cults treat the people who follow them and brain wash them" or maybe "Man, some atheists can be really offensive with how they address the people they're supposedly trying to wake up from what they assume is a total delusion about reality" then you'd have something, and it wouldn't be any less offensive than attacking the legitimacy of anyone's individual beliefs about reality when no one can actually prove anything about their's other than that they exist and that there may be some measure of anecdotal evidence that some things may have happened that they believe in. And yes my grammar and spelling are goddamn fucking terrible, I got lazy because I have a really awesome editor who works on my shit when I write.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 12:13:08 PM

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quote:

Meaning message boards, especially those related to religion or politics, should be shut down because they are pointless as no one's opinion will be changed. Or at least that's how I read it.

Nobody just wonders at what it's all for anymore,.,,,,

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< Message edited by SternSkipper -- 2/4/2012 12:14:13 PM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 2:12:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Any concept of god that interacts with reality most certainly is not "a matter of faith", it falls within the purvue of science. Such concepts are testable and do fail.

How, precisely, would science test for a transcendent cause -- by definition undetectable by physical methods -- behind a physical effect?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/4/2012 2:13:11 PM >

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 2:44:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
transcendent

I've got to stop you right there, I'm only talking about beings that interact with reality. Beings that are only claimed to exist outside of reality don't fall within the purvue of science.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/4/2012 2:47:43 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 2:51:31 PM

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 2:53:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

transcendent

I've got to stop you right there, I'm only talking about beings that interact with reality. Beings that are only claimed to exist outside of reality don't fall within the purvue of science.

I've got to stop you right there. Restricting your definition of reality to the physical reality accessible to science is cheating. You are introducing an assumption that depends on facts not in evidence.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/4/2012 2:58:57 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 3:26:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

transcendent

I've got to stop you right there, I'm only talking about beings that interact with reality. Beings that are only claimed to exist outside of reality don't fall within the purvue of science.

I've got to stop you right there. Restricting your definition of reality to the physical reality accessible to science is cheating. You are introducing an assumption that depends on facts not in evidence.

K.

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Any concept of god that interacts with reality most certainly is not "a matter of faith", it falls within the purvue of science. Such concepts are testable and do fail.

Assuming god created the universe (time-space reality) and god being transcendent, how would one proceed to test for any interaction? The greatest interaction was creation itself and science can neither meaningfully describe it or understand it.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 3:37:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trismagistus
I cannot prove that my god exists, anyone else's doesn't, or that any of it is actually relevant to everyday life, I can however say this, most religious and nonreligious people up for debating about the whole thing in a public forum are so firm in their belief in one or the other standpoint as the full, unimpeachable absolute truth, that any attempt to sway either side one way or the other is an act of folly...

People can be convinced that clearly demonstrably false things are true with far less indoctrination than the average believer has received. Even though on the surface it seems like we're having a simple conversation about a single subject with a yes or no answer the reality is significantly more complex than that. We're talking about a concept that's tied in to so much of ones world view that often a lot of bad data and faulty reasoning need to be reevaluated and recognized before you'll be in a position to change your position on the god question. That's a process that often takes years, it certainly isn't going to happen in a single conversation.

However, that doesn't mean that it's useless to have these conversations. People are prone to that conclusion, but this is one of those example of the unreliability of anecdotal evidence. At the very least making our voices heard reduces anti-atheist prejudice. But what's more religion is losing major ground and that wouldn't be happening if the non religious were staying in the closet.

The only reason I'm an atheist is because I met an atheist.

(in reply to Trismagistus)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 3:51:42 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Any concept of god that interacts with reality most certainly is not "a matter of faith", it falls within the purview of science.

Except when the nature of that interaction is non-causal, as is the case with the Divine.

As for pagan gods and their avatars, they indeed are very physical, but science, as yet being ignorant about their nature, is unlikely to recognize them as anything other than human.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 3:53:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

People can be convinced that clearly demonstrably false things are true with far less indoctrination than the average believer has received... The only reason I'm an atheist is because I met an atheist.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 3:58:46 PM

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Everything...

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 4:09:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
Yet. The mere existence of God is undoubtable.

Reality Fail.

Plenty of people doubt the existence of God therefor by definition it is doubtable.

You seem not to have read the entire post. Let me cut it down to the essentials for you.

quote:

The existence of a creator is demonstrated by the existence of creation. Even if it was random chance, Those dice came from somewhere, somehow at some point got rolled and got got rolled some where. Take it back as far as you want. SOMETHING created the universe. It is the nature of and not the existence of the creator that is subject to debate and to definition and thus, if one is to derive a definition of deity, because it is intrinsically unknowable, faith is a requirement. In fact, there is no requirement BUT faith.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 5:20:48 PM

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quote:

Everything...

Wow Pops that's deep ... What's the DOC tonight? Refrigerant?

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 5:37:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
You seem not to have read the entire post. Let me cut it down to the essentials for you.

No, I'm familiar with the cosmological argument. My point is that even if one grants you the argument up to the point of there being a first cause it's an unfounded assumption to label said first cause "the creator". Your statement "faith is a requirement" would seem to denote some recognition of this problem but unfortunately instead of discarding the argument as faulty at this point you go on to make the claim "In fact, there is no requirement BUT faith".

Please consider that the concept "there is no requirement BUT faith" is anathema to your desire as expressed here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
I have said before and now say again, if religion were a form of learning instead of a form of politics, theologians would travel the world to talk to one another. To share ideas, thoughts and facts. To come together to collectively enjoy the knowledge contributed by each.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 5:52:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
Coming round to my point, Neither Catholic nor Cathar had a monopoly on truth. Each of them worshiped (another weird word) a God they defined according to the wish of their hearts. They worshiped a reflection of themselves. They, in essence, worshiped themselves. If there is indeed a true religion then by that fact there can be only one. On this planet alone there are thousands and if you will count the defunct religions, millions of religions, only one of which could possibly be right. If one star in a million ever hosts a species capable of noticing God, then there are millions of billions of other Worlds each with millions of religions of their own, all of them wrong save one. If, indeed there is, has ever been or ever will be a twue religion anywhere, anywhen.

In fact, here you've just eloquently expressed the fundamental faultiness in the concept that there is no requirement BUT faith and convincingly expressed the necessity of doubt.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 7:05:48 PM

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quote:

If there is indeed a true religion then by that fact there can be only one. On this planet alone there are thousands and if you will count the defunct religions, millions of religions, only one of which could possibly be right

I dont agree with this. I dont believe there is a "true religion" or only one way to have faith.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 8:29:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

The only reason I'm an atheist is because I met an atheist.

Oddly enough, the primary reason I am NOT an atheist is because of the many atheists I have met - with their over-blown sense of mental, moral and intellectual superiority over anyone who is not an atheist. Many atheists I have encountered are bigoted in their non-belief.
My favorite was the atheist of my aquaintance who called for anyone who was not an atheist to be institutionalized in a mental hospital since not being an atheist was clearly a sign of mental deficiency/mental illness.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 8:59:46 PM

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GOD

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/4/2012 9:12:23 PM

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ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
My favorite was the atheist of my aquaintance who called for anyone who was not an atheist to be institutionalized in a mental hospital since not being an atheist was clearly a sign of mental deficiency/mental illness.

That sounds like a pretty dumb position, sure he was actually advocating that and nothing got lost in translation?

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

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