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two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 8:41:38 PM   
sskitten


Posts: 43
Joined: 9/15/2005
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I have read often on these boards statements such as:
 
"Once a cheater, always a cheater."
"If he's lying to his wife, sooner or later he will lie to you."
 
I am here to say that's not how it looks from where I sit!  Many of us find ourselves in two worlds of trust:  we are secretly breaking trust in our vanilla marriages but it is vital to us to be trusted and trusting in the D/s world.
 
You may wonder how and why we can live by two different standards.  The foundation of any meaningful relationship should be trust, so how can we possibly claim to be trustworthy in the D/s world if we cannot be trusted in our marriages?  I can only speak for myself, and I do not claim to be justifying cheating.  I am only claiming that I am passionate about being 100% open and honest in my D/s relationship. 
 
I live in two different worlds of trust because I have been evolving as a person but my marriage cannot accommodate the person I've become, and so I feel I must pretend to be the person I was, the person who lived for decades with a vanilla life alongside a raging D/s inner fantasy life.  Even if I hadn't chosen to cheat, I would still be living a lie, pretending to be content and vanilla.  The truth would destroy my marriage, whether the truth of my cheating or the truth of the depth of my longings.  And while my choices are hurting my husband though he is unaware, the truth would hurt him more.  I am lying to protect him from the harsh pain of the truth that he cannot meet his wife's needs.
 
There are many ways in which my D/s relationship is helping me to learn and grow and be a better person.  One of the most important aspects of my relationship is the understanding that I am to be 100% transparent to my Dom.  I know that our relationship depends upon it, and my submission depends upon it, and my growth depends upon it. 
 
Yes, I do realize that my marriage depends upon it too (or at least on trust if not 100% transparency), but I have never been able to tell my husband when I'm unhappy, because he does not try to work toward a constructive solution; it is guaranteed to degenerate into an argument where he is both defensive and accusatory.  The funny thing is that his main gripe with me is that I always have to have my own way... when inside myself I am longing to submit... but not to him.
 
There is absolutely no point in risking my marriage for a D/s relationship unless it is filling an unmet need in me - the deep longing to give over control to another person and put myself and my trust in another's hands.  I know I must bring the best of myself to this relationship if I am to be worthy of his trust and if I am to learn what submission is really all about and if I am to peel back the layers to expose my whole self to my Dom and to myself.
 
One time I started to do something that I knew would not please him.  And then all of a sudden it struck me with a shock that I must tell him and face the consequences, no matter what.  I knew that if I hid anything from my Dom then there would be no point to the relationship at all.  Even though I burst into tears at the realization that I would have to tell him (minor transgression though it was), at the same moment a huge wave of gratitude and relief swept through me too.  For I realized that this full accountability and transparency is a big part of what I have been longing for in my quest for submission, and that even when it is difficult, it is what I want and need. 
 
Trust is obtainable in my D/s relationship.  Trust *is* my D/s relationship.  It permeates everything.  I lay myself bare to my Dom.  I hide myself from my husband.  This is my life.  I wish I did not lead a fractured life but it is how I manage to make peace inside myself, even though it is sometimes an uneasy peace.
 
And this is how and why I live in two worlds of trust.
 
(I do not expect to change anyone's mind here.  And I know there are plenty of cheaters in the world of BDSM as well as the vanilla world.  This is just one humble kitten's perspective, shared as well by some trusted friends in the D/s world.) 
 
By the way, I've mentioned it a couple of times before, but for those of you who, like me, have made the hard decision to cheat in your marriage and would like to be able to discuss related issues in a nonjudgmental environment, I've started a Yahoo group for this purpose and we have been having some very lively and meaningful discussions.  The group is:
 
Two Flavors - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/two_flavors
(one flavor is vanilla; the other is whatever you want it to be)
 
Kitten
 
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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 9:12:35 PM   
diamonddreamlove


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Thank you kitten for saying all the things i feel about my own "cheating".  Was a hard decision to be true to oneself after many vanilla years.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 9:16:51 PM   
MissDiandSirHugh


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Unlike your self sskitten we are very lucky in us both being on the kinky side plus able to swing so in that we have the trust at all times for each other even if one is not present at times we each know that what ever is happening it is with the knowledge of being informed of any play or passion when present.
We feel  that trust must be part of any meeting of some one who would like to be with us and if they are married then we would still have to say no even if we meet them both and talked because at some time in the future we never wish to be accused or used in a divorce or as an excuse of a marriage breakup.
With out the trust we have for those we enjoy being with and the trust they have in us then there would always be a underlieing feeling of deciete and uneasyness with them woundering if not only will they be safe in all plays and for us would we  be safe in their knowledge of us and our need for privacy.
All we can do is wish you luck and pleasure in the future and hope that all goes so well for you in both worlds.




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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 9:29:20 PM   
juliaoceania


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I sympathize on many levels with people that got married before they became lifestyle aware. It could have happened to me, but I am fortunate in that I was single when I discovered this aspect of my sexuality was more than mere fantasy....

You posted this, so I am thinking it is a challenge to everyone reading it to agree or disagree, which is fine... because I disagree. You might believe you can be honest with your BDSM partner.. and for all I know you are honest with them, but I certainly wouldnt trust you if you could not be honest with your mate whom you swore an oath to and signed a contract with. I may trust you as a friend, but I wouldnt trust you as a lover.

I had a friend that dealt with this issue. I saw her agonize over it for a couple of years and I encouraged her to admit the truth of herself and her choices to her mate. She finally did, and I was so proud of her because it was a hard thing to do and a risky thing also. Why should she live with lies because her hubby cannot do as she needs? Why should she hurt herself spiritually because her needs are not being met... and in my opinion you hurt yourself spiritually when you live a lie, not to mention what you do to the other person. I am proud of her indeed, because she is not a coward.

Life is not easy, being honest is hard, and if you want to grow as a person and trust yourself I think you have to be honest with the people you promised loyalty to. If you can't do that, then I have pity for you, but I judge you not at all.. you probably do that all on your own if you have a conscience... if you dont then that is all the more to pity you for. Peace and good luck.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 9:51:06 PM   
zumala


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I sympathize on many levels with people that got married before they became lifestyle aware. It could have happened to me, but I am fortunate in that I was single when I discovered this aspect of my sexuality was more than mere fantasy....

You posted this, so I am thinking it is a challenge to everyone reading it to agree or disagree, which is fine... because I disagree. You might believe you can be honest with your BDSM partner.. and for all I know you are honest with them, but I certainly wouldnt trust you if you could not be honest with your mate whom you swore an oath to and signed a contract with. I may trust you as a friend, but I wouldnt trust you as a lover.

I had a friend that dealt with this issue. I saw her agonize over it for a couple of years and I encouraged her to admit the truth of herself and her choices to her mate. She finally did, and I was so proud of her because it was a hard thing to do and a risky thing also. Why should she live with lies because her hubby cannot do as she needs? Why should she hurt herself spiritually because her needs are not being met... and in my opinion you hurt yourself spiritually when you live a lie, not to mention what you do to the other person. I am proud of her indeed, because she is not a coward.

Life is not easy, being honest is hard, and if you want to grow as a person and trust yourself I think you have to be honest with the people you promised loyalty to. If you can't do that, then I have pity for you, but I judge you not at all.. you probably do that all on your own if you have a conscience... if you dont then that is all the more to pity you for. Peace and good luck.


I would have to agree with this.  Trust is trust.  Honesty is honesty.  Love is love.  A promise is a promise.  You seem to have disregarded all of the above as far as your husband is concerned.  I feel so sorry for him.  juliaoceania is right - it may be difficult, but being honest is the best thing to do.  If your marriage is a farce, don't let your husband continue to live committed to what has become a lie.  That's cruel.
 
zuma

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 9:56:13 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


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From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sskitten
And this is how and why I live in two worlds of trust.


Sorry to be blunt, but this is a load of crap.  You are unsatisfied in your vanilla marriage so you lie and cheat.  You are a liar and a cheater and to think you live in "two worlds" is just a bit of self-delusion you need to face yourself in the mirror in the morning.

I speak from experience here.  I lied and I cheated and I told myself it was for some higher purpose and that my wife would never understand that I really needed this.  I didn't want to risk my marriage, even though the lies and the cheating had destroyed any real relationship I had or could have with my ex-wife. 

What you are doing is not noble and it is not necessary.  It is unfair to your spouse and, in all honesty, it is unfair to yourself.  There is nothing more wonderful than to live your life in honesty with all of those you love (and who love you)...and nothing worse than sharing a bed with someone who doesn't even know the real you.

The sooner you realize that this web of self-denial you have woven is nothing but a self-destructive affirmation, the sooner you can get out of your unsatisfying marriage (and let your husband get out of what must be a rather bad marriage) and the sooner you can get on with your life.

Life is too short to share it with someone you can't be honest with, and it is way too short to spend it with someone who is not honest with you.

Taggard


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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 10:08:41 PM   
jocelyn


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I'm not sorry to say I don't buy it.  If you choose to break the vows you took, at least find the strength of character to leave the man first.  All the rationalizations in the world cannot justify a lie.

jocelyn


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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 10:13:31 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jocelyn

I'm not sorry to say I don't buy it.  If you choose to break the vows you took, at least find the strength of character to leave the man first.  All the rationalizations in the world cannot justify a lie.

jocelyn



Well at least share the truth of who you are and find out if they can be a part of that truth... and be a part of the decision of what happens after the cards are on the table. I think it is much as a gay man outing himself to his wife... Why should she live with a man that can never truly love her as a woman? Why should she be cheated of this? At least give the person the decision if they want to remain under an open marriage, it is only fair. Otherwise everyone gets hurt... eventually.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 10:15:48 PM   
tangldupinblue


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ok i have a situation to put out there .....when i met my husband, we have been together for 10 years, he knew what i was and was a willing partner. we joined area clubs, played in public , we were even memebers of the staff for a couple of big converntions. everything was going along just fine, or so i thought. Until one day he came home and said he was done. he didnt want to do it anymore, and he didnt want me doing it anymore. i  have done everything i mean everything to find a way to make sure both of needs are met, but he has not only lost interest in B/d  but in any kind of sex life  at all.and yes we have explored all possible reasons for this, doctors check ups blood work etc.... i was faithful to him for 8 years until i moved into our new house and met my Daddy. i know that i stood before god and made promises, but so did he. i am not saying that this should change anyones moral perspective on this, but maybe to give a little more understanding that were not all lying, cheating bitches.

the reason i dont leave him, we are good parents together, we are friends and i just can not sit my kids down and tell them that we are leaving their dad because he wont hit me.

i know the insults are about to fly, so go ahead..... i can take it.

blue

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 10:33:03 PM   
BreakMeShakeMe


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Well... not gonna flame... not going to agree... or disagree... i'm not in the situation. I've been the mistress... i've been the wife of a cheater... and dom. So there for things happen in others relationships I can't comment on. So I'll just say... good luck..  and if you can live with the lies... alrighty then. I just know I couldn't no more. So I stopped. 

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 10:34:14 PM   
talibahh


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From: NSW Australia
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Sometimes in life, the hardest thing to do is the right thing... and what is right for one may not necessarily be right for another. But it is you who has to live with your choices and decisions. Surely though, a spouse has as much right to make his/her own informed choices or decisions too. i know mine did.
 
tali


< Message edited by talibahh -- 6/8/2006 10:35:14 PM >


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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 10:43:15 PM   
Reflectivesoul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: sskitten
And this is how and why I live in two worlds of trust.


Sorry to be blunt, but this is a load of crap.  You are unsatisfied in your vanilla marriage so you lie and cheat.  You are a liar and a cheater and to think you live in "two worlds" is just a bit of self-delusion you need to face yourself in the mirror in the morning.

I speak from experience here.  I lied and I cheated and I told myself it was for some higher purpose and that my wife would never understand that I really needed this.  I didn't want to risk my marriage, even though the lies and the cheating had destroyed any real relationship I had or could have with my ex-wife. 

What you are doing is not noble and it is not necessary.  It is unfair to your spouse and, in all honesty, it is unfair to yourself.  There is nothing more wonderful than to live your life in honesty with all of those you love (and who love you)...and nothing worse than sharing a bed with someone who doesn't even know the real you.

The sooner you realize that this web of self-denial you have woven is nothing but a self-destructive affirmation, the sooner you can get out of your unsatisfying marriage (and let your husband get out of what must be a rather bad marriage) and the sooner you can get on with your life.

Life is too short to share it with someone you can't be honest with, and it is way too short to spend it with someone who is not honest with you.

Taggard


 
I couldnt agree more.... what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.....
 
<to the OP>
How could someone trust another when they are married and lieing to their spouse, do you not see or hold any honor to the vows you professed?  you are not doing your husband some kind of justice you're leaving him in a hopeless marriage with a woman that doesnt even have enough guts to tell him that she no longer wants him... how selfish of you....

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 10:58:20 PM   
BreakMeShakeMe


Posts: 339
Joined: 6/6/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul


 
I couldnt agree more.... what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.....
 
<to the OP>
How could someone trust another when they are married and lieing to their spouse, do you not see or hold any honor to the vows you professed?  you are not doing your husband some kind of justice you're leaving him in a hopeless marriage with a woman that doesnt even have enough guts to tell him that she no longer wants him... how selfish of you....


RS,
I totally agree... during my faze of being "the other woman".... when he said he was leaving wife...I asked why.. he  said so we could marry....After I stopped laughing..I simply explained... and just who will be "the other" with me?....No thanks... we split up about 2 weeks after that....and have refused to "date" married men sense. But like I said... being how I HAVE..I can't flame one that does. And when it comes to the... my spouse doesn't know...understand.. etc... then I just tell them to go talk to them..and walk away completely.


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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 11:04:21 PM   
Reflectivesoul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BreakMeShakeMe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul


 
I couldnt agree more.... what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.....
 
<to the OP>
How could someone trust another when they are married and lieing to their spouse, do you not see or hold any honor to the vows you professed?  you are not doing your husband some kind of justice you're leaving him in a hopeless marriage with a woman that doesnt even have enough guts to tell him that she no longer wants him... how selfish of you....


RS,
I totally agree... during my faze of being "the other woman".... when he said he was leaving wife...I asked why.. he  said so we could marry....After I stopped laughing..I simply explained... and just who will be "the other" with me?....No thanks... we split up about 2 weeks after that....and have refused to "date" married men sense. But like I said... being how I HAVE..I can't flame one that does. And when it comes to the... my spouse doesn't know...understand.. etc... then I just tell them to go talk to them..and walk away completely.



I try my best to stay away from couples. marriages, anything of the like because I dont think I would be able to get over any kind of guilt if I split them up... the way I feel about it is if I am going to put my effort forth to be with you and you alone, you damn well be able to offer me the same in return.... besides that.... I'm greedy and I dont share well with others.....  lol

_____________________________

ooooo..I bet THATS gonna leave a mark!!!!

Equal opportunity pisser on-er ... heh..

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 11:08:26 PM   
Dustyn


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Joined: 4/5/2006
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quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: sskitten
but my marriage cannot accommodate the person I've become, and so I feel I must pretend to be the person I was


quote:

And while my choices are hurting my husband though he is unaware, the truth would hurt him more.  I am lying to protect him from the harsh pain of the truth that he cannot meet his wife's needs.

 
quote:

There is absolutely no point in risking my marriage for a D/s relationship unless it is filling an unmet need in me - the deep longing to give over control to another person and put myself and my trust in another's hands.  I know I must bring the best of myself to this relationship if I am to be worthy of his trust



Some interesting points.  Main reason that I highlighted the ones that I have is that i have been on the receiving end of the cheating, and frankly, it hurt more that I wasn't trusted enough to be told the truth of the matter than the actual cheating itself.  Anymore, I just find it loathesome to be in relationships with people that refuse to have enough common decency to just say things the way they are, instead of trying to live multiple lives.

Been there and done that.  In part, it lead to some of my manic depression, being forced to 'hide' who I was to avoid 'hurting' the people that I cared about.  It also lead to an emotional breakdown.

For me, and me alone, if you can't trust me enough with the truth, then just f'ing leave.  Pissing around with what little grasp I have on sanity is never a wise choice, but a mature action will always be respected by me, even if it tears me in half.  Everyone that has known me for any serious length of time knows to just say things blunt and plain.  Better to chance annoying me than truly waking up my temper.  I've broken more than one person over the years because of just that kind of nonsense, and I will most likely have a few more in my lifetime.

Thankfully, though, they are coming fewer and farther between as the years flow past.

I don't envy you your position, but reverse it, with your husband being the one doing the things you are and you being the one kept from knowing.  Then answer which is worse.

Just my take on it and it's not meant to piss anyone off.  I apologize if any hackles get raised.  Well, for the most part, at least.  Always have to be honest. LOL


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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 11:28:18 PM   
proudsub


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As many of you know, i've been in kitten's position and was "caught".  Hubby was much more upset about the lies than the affair and we are still working on rebuilding the trust.

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/8/2006 11:45:59 PM   
BuxomGoddess714


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Being lied to is the single cruelest act anyone can commit against us in a relationship.  It is treason of the heart and betrayal makes us feel we were never loved in the first place.  It is worse then the act of cheating itself.  You wonder if anything they ever said was true, including "I Loved You".  This husband is having his right to react to the reality of his realtionship taken away from him.  His own pursuit of happiness is being stolen from him for her selfish needs.  If you ever cared for someone, you should set them free if your feelings change so they may pursue a happy life.  This woman is having her cake and eating it to, and using deception to make it happen.  Any 2 year old knows this is wrong.  No debate.  Rationalize, justify, bullshit yourselves all you want.  Some "Lifestyle"choice, sexual orientation, addiction, kink or aliens controlling your mind does NOT justify something thats wrong and evil.  There are some black and white truths about evil in the Universe.  This is one of them.  The fact there is this "Trust" with the Dom lies the Treason and is disgusting; the clearest case I have seen lately of justification of evil.  I had someone string me along recently while they were cheating and wake the hell up people, you aren't the only fish in the sea.  Set us free so we can stop putting up with your lies and bs, trying to figure out what that 'something' is thats not right.  Let us find someone who really does love us, or just be alone and not be lied to all the time, how about that?  Nobody needs to be with a cheater or lier, its stressful hearing your lies every day.  Check back with her in 10 years and see where her Kharma has landed her.  I am secure in this.  Feel sorry for HER she has hell to pay.  They started a yahoo GROUP holy sh*t???  Goddess help them all...

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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 12:03:27 AM   
Brosco


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Dustyn,  I can perfectly understand your feelings and have no doubt of your honesty, but I do doubt your experience as to make you a spokesman for all others.  If what you expressed was just an opinion, then I can respect that, but it certainly didn't come across that way.

Forget the specific post for a moment and be hypothetical.

A very common occurance we see in this lifestyle is people finding their hidden D/s desires later in life... often after years of vanilla marriage.  So when does it become cheating?

.  When there are D/s fantasies not involving the partner?
.  When there is research about the feelings in forums such as this?
.  When there is D/s forms of flirting in a chatroom?
.  When there are private msg and email exchanges about it?
.  When the exchanges get more personal?
.  When there are r/l meetings?
.  When there is r/f bdsm play?
.  When there is sex involved?

I guess I know where I would draw the line and call it cheating by my own values and standards, but I'm unsure that I can apply my standards to others.  People have to find there own way, and while it may be helpful to explain why we see another's choice as cheating in our own eyes, we have to accept that they see it differently.  It is their choice, and not for us to impose our values.

Brosco


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RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 12:10:59 AM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
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From: NM/USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Sorry to be blunt, but this is a load of crap.  You are unsatisfied in your vanilla marriage so you lie and cheat.  You are a liar and a cheater and to think you live in "two worlds" is just a bit of self-delusion you need to face yourself in the mirror in the morning.

What you are doing is not noble and it is not necessary.  It is unfair to your spouse and, in all honesty, it is unfair to yourself. 

Life is too short to share it with someone you can't be honest with, and it is way too short to spend it with someone who is not honest with you.

Taggard


I agree. Emphatically. I have heard very similar rationalizatons from one close to me. I don't buy into it at all.

Bob

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Damn the crops. I'll only find peace at the end of a rope.--Winston Van Loo, 1911

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: two worlds of trust - 6/9/2006 12:43:30 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
All the talk of honesty, fidelity and trust in D/s lifestyle is a load of crap. People are people and have been since Adam and Eve. If they are not satisfied in one relationship the pressure will be on to seek a better relationship or even if they aren't looking, to cheat if they meet someone they fall for. In an ideal world the person involved would be honest but that is not as easy as it sounds.

People are in a state of flux so feelings and circumstances change. Cheating and being cheated on is not nice and I can understand both. You can't stop yourself falling for someone that you happen to meet but do have control over whether you actively look for someone else. If you meet and fall for someone else one should come clean as soon as one has got the guts and not let someone plan the future in the belief the relationship is good. It's planned maliciousness that fills me with rage not a bruised ego.

As for trust, integrity and honesty in the life style, they are all vacuous platitudes.

(in reply to sskitten)
Profile   Post #: 20
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