RE: Difference between dominant and sadist

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 6:36:51 PM

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I didn't see hostility in LP's post. I saw her say that if *she* needed to use pain, *she* would need to hang it up. Not that anyone who needed to use it was wrong. I am sure she will let me know if I read that wrong.

That said, I understand the punishment/pain dynamic you have, I think, but, since Ishtarr has been very open about saying how wet it makes her when you do punish her in ways that cause extreme pain, is it really a punishment?

eta I agree that sadists get pleasure from causing pain to others. Some are dominants, and some just enjoy the process with a play partner.

< Message edited by JstAnotherSub -- 7/29/2012 6:38:28 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 6:54:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I didn't see hostility in LP's post. I saw her say that if *she* needed to use pain, *she* would need to hang it up. Not that anyone who needed to use it was wrong. I am sure she will let me know if I read that wrong.

Apparently you have trouble with reading comprehension - that's not hostile because it is the same level of response as:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
It may help you a great deal in learning about BDSM to read a NON-fiction book about it. Things that are written in books seem to sink in very well with you, whether they are true or not.

So, it was just as hostile as I am demonstrating to you now, and I am letting you know you are wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub
That said, I understand the punishment/pain dynamic you have, I think, but, since Ishtarr has been very open about saying how wet it makes her when you do punish her in ways that cause extreme pain, is it really a punishment?

One, since you read her comments about the punishments, you read about how much she doesn't want them and wants me to stop. It is the effect on her headspace after the fact that she craves. They are very much punishments to her.

Two, KateMid has been talking about thinking punishments are hot. So, if my dynamic with Ishtar is ok because it makes her hot, then everything Kate has talked about is ok too. I am an example of many of the things she has been talking about, so the claims it is all implausible are demonstrated false by my existence. The snide remarks directed at her are just a bunch of nonsense and the hostility still makes no sense to me.

(And don't read into my statements that I have anything in common with 50 Shades - I have read exactly 0 words of the book, but by all accounts it is also just a bunch of nonsense.)

< Message edited by Ullrmann -- 7/29/2012 6:57:04 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 7:01:53 PM

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Well alrighty then. I don't see hostility in the recommendation that the OP read some non-fiction either, so, therefore I am not wrong, I just see things differently than you do.

I said nothing about any type of relationship being right or wrong, so I dunno where that comes from. Probably just my lack of reading comprehension again.

Welcome to the boards, I can tell it is going to be enjoyable reading your interpretation of things.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 7:05:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub
Welcome to the boards, I can tell it is going to be enjoyable reading your interpretation of things.

Masochist.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 7:07:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub
Welcome to the boards, I can tell it is going to be enjoyable reading your interpretation of things.

Thanks you, though I'm not new to the boards. I abandoned my old profile and thus reset my post count on collar chat.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 7:15:35 PM

searching4mysir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KateMid

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

A Dominant is defined by the relationship he is in. He wants control in his relationship.

A sadist wants to inflict pain. He is defined solely by what he does in physical interactions (or emotional, if he's an emotional sadist).

It's possible to have a person who is neither, who is one but not the other, or who is both.

But isn’t one way a Dom gets control by inflicting pain in the form of punishments? If he is unable to punish for transgressions then surely he has no real control.

A dominant who is not a sadist will not enjoy punishing his sub/slave any more than the sub/slave enjoys receiving that punishment.

For me, the worst punishment in the world is the look in his eyes when I know I've displeased him and his withdrawal of affection.

(in reply to KateMid)

RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 7:36:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
For me, the worst punishment in the world is the look in his eyes when I know I've displeased him and his withdrawal of affection.

searching4mysir: this question is a general one to the board. I have no criticism of the dynamic in your relationship or other relationships following the same model.

Is the consensus around here that withdrawal of affection (aka emotional abuse) as a punishment is ok, yet corporal punishment (aka physical abuse) is not a proper form of punishment?

I am having trouble identifying any consistency in the popular dogma around here. Am I understanding correctly that I can inflict pain as long as it is part of a S&M play dynamic, but not as part of a punishment dynamic? If the pain inflicted is the same in both cases, then the difference is simply the thoughts behind the actions which matters. Does that mean I am committing thought crimes?

I am NOT talking about a case where the dominant has no clue what to do other than physical violence - that is reckless and not in control. However, the idiot dominant keeps getting conflated with skilled, in-control dominants using healthy punishment dynamics in their D/s relationships. That's where I fail to understand how it is any less healthy than punishing through removal of affection - my wife always knows she is loved and her place in my heart is secure. Surely I'm missing something.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 7:49:06 PM

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quote:

Is the consensus around here that withdrawal of affection (aka emotional abuse) as a punishment is ok, yet corporal punishment (aka physical abuse) is not a proper form of punishment?

Master rarely ever withdraws his affection. He may get upset with me but he always counters it with why he is and that he still loves me but that he won't call me for a day or something like that. To be honest I can only remember him using that once.

And corporal punishment is almost always used because he knows I hate pain.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 7/29/2012 7:50:32 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 8:21:57 PM

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Ullrmann, why should there be any consistency here? There are dozens of regualr posters, all of us with our own set of values and experiences.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 8:27:28 PM

searching4mysir

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FR

I truly dislike the use of the term "abuse" as it implies non-consent. When Master withdraws from me, it is not abusive in the least. It is a natural consequence of my actions and a reminder of what I stand to lose.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 8:40:01 PM

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Ullrmann, we are not so far apart as you might expect.

Yes. Anybody who has to have hundreds of people convince them that 50 Shades is not a good representation of D/s, and clings to their belief after the attempt at education, that's just being thick headed. It is no better a representation than a Harlequin romance novel with the main male character being a pirate compares to the pirates of Somalia.

I disagree with your stance that the withdraw of affection is emotional abuse. Punishment, at it's core, is about cause and effect. Don't want the punishment? Don't commit the infraction. Simple, really. Like you, I believe that punishment is up to My discretion. It just so happens that the person who is collared to Me is impacted more by non corporal punishments. If that was all I had at My disposal, it wouldn't be nearly as effective. I don't want him repeating for positive effects from punishment. I want the punishment to be negative so that he doesn't repeat the offense. If it turned him on, I'd do something else.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 7/29/2012 8:45:12 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 8:43:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Ullrmann, why should there be any consistency here? There are dozens of regualr posters, all of us with our own set of values and experiences.

The lack of consistency I speak of is within the positions of individual people. Pay attention. I wasn't being cryptic.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 8:46:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir

FR

I truly dislike the use of the term "abuse" as it implies non-consent. When Master withdraws from me, it is not abusive in the least. It is a natural consequence of my actions and a reminder of what I stand to lose.

That's why I specifically stated I wasn't being critical of your dynamic. I get accused of being an abusive bully for engaging in a pain based punishment dynamic and I was using the word abuse to draw the parallel between corporal punishments and withdrawal of affection. I did not intend to imply any malfeasance on the part of your Master.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 8:53:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I disagree with your stance that the withdraw of affection is emotional abuse. Punishment, at it's core, is about cause and effect. Don't want the punishment? Don't commit the infraction. Simple, really. Like you, I believe that punishment is up to My discretion. It just so happens that the person who is collared to Me is impacted more by non corporal punishments. If that was all I had at My disposal, it wouldn't be nearly as effective. I don't want him repeating for positive effects from punishment. I want the punishment to be negative so that he doesn't repeat the offense. If it turned him on, I'd do something else.

See my above post for an explanation of my use of the word abuse.

Alright, so why is pain as a consequence condemned around here? I see one thread after another stating that inflicting pain as a punishment is being an abusive bully, or an ignorant newbie, or not twue mastery. The claim is made that a "real" master would threaten to kick out a submissive rather than just spank her and move on. I've tried to get this explained in a couple different threads now and so far nobody will address the question.

It is unclear to me from your posts what your position is here, so I suppose you might not have the answer to my question either.

< Message edited by Ullrmann -- 7/29/2012 8:54:54 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 9:39:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Ullrmann, why should there be any consistency here? There are dozens of regualr posters, all of us with our own set of values and experiences.

The lack of consistency I speak of is within the positions of individual people. Pay attention. I wasn't being cryptic.

No but I was... even if I don't pay attention. I personally and it is just me, find your tone quite antagonistic, is it your intent to actually ask a sincere question or is it just to stir shit?

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 9:43:35 PM

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Ah, It's not just me, then. Really, I don't feel the desire to engage in a hostile 'discussion'.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 10:11:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CRYPTICLXVI

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Ullrmann, why should there be any consistency here? There are dozens of regualr posters, all of us with our own set of values and experiences.

The lack of consistency I speak of is within the positions of individual people. Pay attention. I wasn't being cryptic.

No but I was... even if I don't pay attention. I personally and it is just me, find your tone quite antagonistic, is it your intent to actually ask a sincere question or is it just to stir shit?

I have given each person the individual respect each deserve. LH's willful ignorance of what I clearly stated in my post was quite the passive aggressive dodge of my questions. So LadyHibiscus, I am not sorry.

My questions were asked very clearly, and they have been ignored or responded to with an intentional twisting of my very simple questions. The hostility and rudeness insulting my approach to BDSM has been scattered across collar chat for a few weeks now and I'm calling bullshit on this ridiculous dogma.

I really want to know why everyone who has been spouting the anti-punishment dynamic position is so afraid to address the questions straight on?

< Message edited by Ullrmann -- 7/29/2012 10:14:25 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 10:34:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann
See my above post for an explanation of my use of the word abuse.

Alright, so why is pain as a consequence condemned around here? I see one thread after another stating that inflicting pain as a punishment is being an abusive bully, or an ignorant newbie, or not twue mastery. The claim is made that a "real" master would threaten to kick out a submissive rather than just spank her and move on. I've tried to get this explained in a couple different threads now and so far nobody will address the question.

It is unclear to me from your posts what your position is here, so I suppose you might not have the answer to my question either.

No, and you won't get that answer from Me. My statements regarding punishment are quite clear. I don't care if punishments are of the corporal type or not. It is My belief, however, that punishments should be tailored to the individual and should fit the offense. I happen to think that every Dominant should know exactly what that should be. If you think I'm being rough here, wait until you see My reaction to the "tell the ways I should punish the s-type" threads.

If physical pain is the only punishment that a person can come up with, I'd definitely accuse them of being unimaginative and possibly lazy. That's not the same as saying that a person prefers to punish with pain because that has been the most successful course. I do happen to think we make a mistake when punishment is supposed to be a good, fun thing, like was being expressed on another thread.

Correct definition of words aside, I can promise you that I am the LAST person who will try to tell any Dominant how they *must* run their dynamic. Perhaps you have confused Me with somebody else.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 10:36:46 PM

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Testing my own awakeness here...so if you don't like the post snark away, I'll be snoring by the time you reply.

If I'm following you here, Ullrmann, you acknowledge that punishment infers instruction through consequence borne of a chosen action/reaction, but don't understand the group take on methodology/implementation...?

That would be because there is no such critter.

Methods applied to groups are not necessarily Venn by the person. Since each case is individual, so are the results. Why kick someone to the curb instead of spank? Well, that's the choice a Dom(me) can make according to their own principles and methodology. It's not mine, but I'm not going to criticize said practice because it's not my call or my dynamic.

Pain as a punishment does happen, with some people, and not with others. Again, I'm in the 'not' pile; and those I know who do it, do so to set examples and enforce pre-established rules. The military has done the same in the past.

Are you looking to explore one specific dynamic? If so, how do you view it?

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 11:26:42 PM

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I appreciate the direct response. However, the statements scattered across collar chat which are prompting my questions were stating very bluntly with clear contempt that punishment dynamics were universally wrong. I am interested in learning how the 'it is always wrong, period' crowd explains that position. That's the dialog I am repeatedly failing to find. The best I've found is intelligent responses from people who don't actually hold that position, which in turn fails to answer the question from no fault of their own.

I fully agree with the to-each-his-own answer angle of your response as the reality of the diverse world of BDSM relationships. I also assert that my approach is wrong for many people - possibly wrong for most people. Thus, I do not advocate my approach for being one others should take unless it is a proper fit for their relationship.

< Message edited by Ullrmann -- 7/29/2012 11:37:09 PM >

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