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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 11:28:32 PM

Ullrmann

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That clears up your position in my mind a great deal. Thank you for that response.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 11:31:22 PM

Ishtarr

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.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 7/29/2012 11:40:39 PM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/29/2012 11:41:02 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

since Ishtarr has been very open about saying how wet it makes her when you do punish her in ways that cause extreme pain, is it really a punishment?

Not because of the pain though. Because of the fear. The fear of having displeased, the fear of being punished in ways that are unpleasant. The fear that is implied by the vulnerability inherent by the fact that somebody has the capability/authority to punish me.
Pain is just the easiest way to apply unpleasant consequences to an action for me. Because I happen to not like pain. So yes, despite me getting wet from it beatings are very much punishment for me.

But the method of punishment doesn't matter in terms of making me wet. It could be chastity, ignoring me, or corner time or anything else. As long as it is something that's extremely unpleasant/uncomfortable/distressing it will make me horny.
It's the enforcement of consequences to my actions that makes me horny, not the pain.

So if a dominant's goal is to punish me in any way but to not have me get horny from it, there are basically no options. I guess the closest thing to an option would be acting like nothing happened, not changing their behavior or interaction with me in any way, and ignoring that anything happened to begin with. But that hardly seems like an option that works for either them or me either.
So in the end, I just think that I don't work well at all with dominants who find it essential that s-types to not get erotic gratification from punishments.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 2:37:27 AM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

Is the consensus around here that withdrawal of affection (aka emotional abuse) as a punishment is ok, yet corporal punishment (aka physical abuse) is not a proper form of punishment?

You're hoping for consensus? Here? There really are very few things where there's a consensus.

I'd also say that if when these things become "abuse" they're probably not healthy for either party

quote:

I am having trouble identifying any consistency in the popular dogma around here.

Excellent, job done. A lot of effort goes into persuading people that there is no one true way, that the idea that there should be a "standard way of doing BDSM is absurd".

quote:

Am I understanding correctly that I can inflict pain as long as it is part of a S&M play dynamic, but not as part of a punishment dynamic?

No, you're not understanding correctly at all. You should be thinking in terms "Some people prefer not to use pain as part of a punishment dynamic". The implication being that other people are free to do so.

quote:

If the pain inflicted is the same in both cases, then the difference is simply the thoughts behind the actions which matters.

I'd hazard that there are very different motivators in a pain vs punishment dynamic.

quote:

Does that mean I am committing thought crimes?

Now you're just being silly.

quote:

I am NOT talking about a case where the dominant has no clue what to do other than physical violence - that is reckless and not in control. However, the idiot dominant keeps getting conflated with skilled, in-control dominants using healthy punishment dynamics in their D/s relationships. That's where I fail to understand how it is any less healthy than punishing through removal of affection - my wife always knows she is loved and her place in my heart is secure. Surely I'm missing something.

Yes, you're missing something.

If the dynamic you have with your wife works for you both, then you're all good.

Other people will have different needs/wants/expectations - they're not wrong, either.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 2:44:24 AM

crazyml

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< Message edited by crazyml -- 7/30/2012 2:59:44 AM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 3:43:29 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
For me, the worst punishment in the world is the look in his eyes when I know I've displeased him and his withdrawal of affection.

searching4mysir: this question is a general one to the board. I have no criticism of the dynamic in your relationship or other relationships following the same model.

Is the consensus around here that withdrawal of affection (aka emotional abuse) as a punishment is ok, yet corporal punishment (aka physical abuse) is not a proper form of punishment?

I am having trouble identifying any consistency in the popular dogma around here. Am I understanding correctly that I can inflict pain as long as it is part of a S&M play dynamic, but not as part of a punishment dynamic? If the pain inflicted is the same in both cases, then the difference is simply the thoughts behind the actions which matters. Does that mean I am committing thought crimes?

I am NOT talking about a case where the dominant has no clue what to do other than physical violence - that is reckless and not in control. However, the idiot dominant keeps getting conflated with skilled, in-control dominants using healthy punishment dynamics in their D/s relationships. That's where I fail to understand how it is any less healthy than punishing through removal of affection - my wife always knows she is loved and her place in my heart is secure. Surely I'm missing something.

What you are missing is the understanding, nobody tells you how to run your dynamic, I said for ME (which means my dynamic) it would not work if I would need to punish to be in control, I would find any kind of relationship that works on the basis of fear unsatisfactory, somebody who wants to be in a relationship with me should be WANT to be in this relationship and should want to make it work. As a sadist, I tend to attract masochists, so physical punishment in a lot of cases would be "funishment" for them and defeat the purpose. I'm also very low protocol but that doesn't mean that orders aren't orders. So somebody flaunting orders will be sat down, I explain that I am not willing to tolerate it, chances are they are getting a task to research some BDSM dynamics and to write an essay about it, while they are having time out to think about it, and I make clear that if their mission is to flaunt orders to see how far they can push it, we're simply not well suited, it would be a waste of both of our time, energy and emotional resources and it's better to break it off. Somebody approaching me and telling me if they do this or that wrong they expect to be punished with x amount of lashes, my answer would be "Thank you, but no thank you" - just not my dynamic and I would suspect that they will do things wrong to get "punished" or can only function out of fear, bad vibes for me, I prefer to not invite negativity into my life.

In an SM relationship, things are different, we are equals unless we're in a scene, there is no need for punishment and there is not a lot of D/s involved, we meet because s/he likes the pain and I like inflicting it, the BDSM equivalent of "friends with benefits", when it comes to D/s, we are equals UNTIL we enter that relationship and before that happens the other part knows exactly what to expect and what I expect. Now if I can only run that relationship with fear of punishment, that would be such a failure and a drainage for me, not worth it. In case a relationship doesn't work, it's better to quit it and give both parties a chance to find something that suits them better instead of emotionally blocking and draining them.

In case a time out and giving the person a chance to think about if they really want to be in this relationship is emotional abuse for you, all I can say is "whatever" because that's not how my relationships work, they work with a choice - I don't think giving somebody a choice is even remotely emotional abuse. If you and your wife are happy the way your relationship works, more power to you, that it might not work for others doesn't matter because they're not in it.

As an example, LP runs her relationships completely different and on a much higher protocol, I really have no issue with it because it works for her, it wouldn't work for me, just like my approach wouldn't work for her, but it's all good because we aren't running each others relationship and when it comes to safety, we're usually in perfect agreement. BDSM relationships have different dynamics and YMMV.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 4:03:38 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

quote:

ORIGINAL: CRYPTICLXVI

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Ullrmann, why should there be any consistency here? There are dozens of regualr posters, all of us with our own set of values and experiences.

The lack of consistency I speak of is within the positions of individual people. Pay attention. I wasn't being cryptic.

No but I was... even if I don't pay attention. I personally and it is just me, find your tone quite antagonistic, is it your intent to actually ask a sincere question or is it just to stir shit?

I have given each person the individual respect each deserve. LH's willful ignorance of what I clearly stated in my post was quite the passive aggressive dodge of my questions. So LadyHibiscus, I am not sorry.

My questions were asked very clearly, and they have been ignored or responded to with an intentional twisting of my very simple questions. The hostility and rudeness insulting my approach to BDSM has been scattered across collar chat for a few weeks now and I'm calling bullshit on this ridiculous dogma.

I really want to know why everyone who has been spouting the anti-punishment dynamic position is so afraid to address the questions straight on?

So you are being the nice guy and everyone else is just picking on you? Maybe you should look for the constant in the equation.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 4:04:13 AM

LaTigresse

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Methinks it is not the people replying to Ulrman that have a reading comprehension issue.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 4:30:46 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr

Greetings Steven,

What do you then class the person whom uses erotic pain ? Do you still class them as a sadist ?

Frank.

For the sadist...pain is the erotica. The sadist views the inflicting of pain as sexual foreplay.

It is only during the modern era of alternative interactions, that many have morphed sadism as to now be an indicator of all manor of other attributes such as a dominant person even when they aren't and don't need to be, as masochism is not necessarily submission.

These are fetishes engaged in by all manor of people whether dominant, submissive...or neither.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 8:12:14 AM

Alltiedup57

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I probably shouldn't ask , but being new what really is the difference between Dominant an Sadist
I always thought the sadist did painful things just to make themselves feel good, an Dominant did painful things make him/her AND the sub/Slave feel good.
Alltiedup57

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 8:13:53 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

The hostility and rudeness insulting my approach to BDSM has been scattered across collar chat for a few weeks now and I'm calling bullshit on this ridiculous dogma.

I see it very differently.

I believe this post of Ishtarr's prompted the discussion: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4179797

DesFip asked clarifying questions: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4180511

Ishtarr responded: http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4180599

After which LadyHib said:

quote:

Thanks for that clarification, Ishtarr. I was racking my brain trying to come up with the transgression that would merit beating someone into hysteria, and I couldn't arrive at one. That you're doing it for fear play makes a lot more sense.

You said:

quote:

I am responding to LadyHibiscus, but this is directed more broadly than to just her.

I am curious what difference it makes whether or not Ishtarr's punishments are associated with fear play or any other kind of play. She has essentially described some fairly intense S&M punishments within a consensual non-consent framework. Can that stand or fall on its own merits or lack thereof? Does the motivation of both parties matter? What if it isn't fear-play? What if Ishtarr's torments are for no other reason than being dominated into submitting to these punishments?

The impression I get from this thread (among others) is the BDSM community can accept sadism & masochism but not dominance & submission. Somehow, everything has to have the "-play" suffix or it is condemned. Fear-play is ok. Edge-play is ok. D&s is not ok.

Or more precisely, D&s is not ok unless the s actively wants everything the D is doing... which seems to miss the entire point. Maybe we should reverse the capitalization to d&S? Or maybe it would be ok if those engaging in dominance & submission start calling it D&s-play instead?

Not meaning to be hostile - just curious why the physically focused BD and SM parts of BDSM are accepted when the physiologically focused DS part of BDSM is not.

LH responded:

quote:

Ullr, I am not a person that engages in punishment dynamics, but to each their own.

My questioning Ishtarr's description is based on why they were engaging in any such extreme scene and calling it 'punishment', and engaging in it *repeatedly*. What misbehaviour would indicate that, and what punishment is working if it's constantly repeated?

Ishtarr answered my question, and as so often happens, it's a matter of semantics.

The bolded summarizes many posters objections about physical punishment, especially the not working but repeating part.

You and Ishtarr are both very intelligent people and I cannot conceptualize you meting severe physical punishments with the goal of correcting behavior and repeatedly failing to achieve that goal, necessitating repeat severe punishments, unless there is something else going on, like Ishtarr's being turned on by fear.

I want to also point out that while ChatteParfait was wondering about abuse earlier in the thread, she came around:

quote:

In any case, I am willing to concede that a punishment dynamic can be healthy for some

While is a sentiment expressed by many.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 8:17:52 AM

PrincessJessieJ

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Well, first of all, I'm personally of the opinion that there are different types of sadists- those who prefer a certain sort of pain. Myself, I like fucking with peoples heads. It's fun.

A sadist inflicts pain/pleasure for their own enjoyment, but it can also be for the subs enjoyment.
A dominant may not necessarily like inflicting pain. In fact as a Dom/me they don't necessarily have to go for the pain at all, although it does make a nice counterpart to the pleasure as a contrasting sensation.

tl;dr- a sadist likes to inflict pain. A dominant may or may not be a sadist, may or may not like to inflict pain as well. One does not have to be sadistic in order to be dominant. (Although it helps. :) ))

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 8:21:44 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alltiedup57

I probably shouldn't ask , but being new what really is the difference between Dominant an Sadist
I always thought the sadist did painful things just to make themselves feel good, an Dominant did painful things make him/her AND the sub/Slave feel good.
Alltiedup57

I suggest you take the time to do some reading before asking a question that has already been answered.......several times.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 10:17:07 AM

Ullrmann

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Congratulations on completely missing my point. Is this willful ignorance of what I stated or are you legitimately unable to comprehend my questions?

Every single one of your comments 100% missed the point of my statements so it isn't even worth going through one by one.

< Message edited by Ullrmann -- 7/30/2012 10:18:27 AM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 10:24:36 AM

Ullrmann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
What you are missing is the understanding, nobody tells you how to run your dynamic, I said for ME...

Here's your previous statement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Sadism is for my pleasure and not punishment, if I need to beat or punish somebody to have control, then I've failed as a dominant, then I'm just a bully. Punishment for transgressions would be ignoring the person or giving the person a task they don't like.

The structure of your sentence casts anyone who beats or punishes somebody to have control as a bully and a failed dominant. I beat and punish as a tool to maintain control so your statement is directly offensive to me and telling my I am not a TWUE dominant. So sweetie, knock off the innocent routine. A TWUE dominant has the conviction of principles to stand behind their statements on not try to weasel out of them.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 10:30:25 AM

Ullrmann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
So you are being the nice guy and everyone else is just picking on you? Maybe you should look for the constant in the equation.

I never said EVERYBODY was picking on me. I said the comments were scattered across the boards, that I disagree with them, find them offensive and incorrect, and have been asking questions which routinely fail to be answered. There is no equation or constant relevant to any of that. Some have been hostile and I've called them out on it. The rest haven't and your overgeneralizing my statements fits right in with the willful ignorance I commented on earlier. Have more intellectual integrity than that.

< Message edited by Ullrmann -- 7/30/2012 10:31:03 AM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 10:33:42 AM

LadyConstanze

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I'm terribly sorry if your understanding of English is so limited that you don't get it, I was talking about MY dynamic...

Have you considered that you seem to be the one person here who's misunderstood by all the others? Funny that...

Buttercup, obviously you are the only twue and weal dominant, very special. Bless your heart and your domly cotton socks.

I couldn't care less what you claim to be, I think I already made up my mind that you're pretty much a dick.

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 10:36:30 AM

Ullrmann

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I have zero respect for you, so your opinion is irrelevant.

I never said I was the twue real dominant. I said my way was likely wrong for most and I said and that to each their own on their individual approaches was the right view. I am questioning the hostile criticisms of what I do. You sweetie are the one maintaining the TWUE dogma.

Your statements in any English speaking environment would be taken the way I did. You used the word 'I' - true, but the cause and effect relationship included was far more general. The statements were also used to tell KateMid that she was wrong in her views. So if she is wrong having my position on punishments, than obviously you think I am too. So you very obviously meant more than just what you do in your scenes.

There is no intellectual integrity within you which is rather unbecoming in a dominant.

< Message edited by Ullrmann -- 7/30/2012 10:54:39 AM >

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 10:39:37 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

I have zero respect for you,

Dude, I am going to go out on a proverbial limb here and say.......people would have to actually respect YOU, for that little zinger to have any sting.

Nice try though.

Better luck flaunting your domly card in your next incarnation. You've pretty well fucked it up in this one.

_____________________________

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Difference between dominant and sadist - 7/30/2012 10:44:57 AM

Ullrmann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ullrmann

I have zero respect for you,

Dude, I am going to go out on a proverbial limb here and say.......people would have to actually respect YOU, for that little zinger to have any sting.

Nice try though.

Better luck flaunting your domly card in your next incarnation. You've pretty well fucked it up in this one.

Fucked what up? That implies there was a goal somewhere - what goal? True, nobody will answer the questions about punishment dynamics other than to run for cover and retract previous statements posted to collar chat. Other than that, I don't see what was fucked up?

I responded in kind to her calling me a dick. So the in-crowd gets free reign to throw out insults and the new guy is not allowed a response? How very high school of everyone. That's fine, but I have shown respect each step of the way until shown hostility and have not backed down.

< Message edited by Ullrmann -- 7/30/2012 10:55:35 AM >

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