RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 5:10:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

I think the whole "gift of submission" thing is also a romantic thing. And those into romance will love it, those who puke at romance mix with bdsm will hate it.

I'm not against romance, I think it's a great thing, but declaring something that you actually crave to give because YOU need it to feel good, as a "gift" seems to be intellectually dishonest. A masochist craves pain, a sadist liked inflicting pain, you don't hear people talking about giving the gift of masochism to somebody.

It's pretty simple, if you're a submissive you want a dominant partner because you compliment each other and fulfill each others' needs, it's not a gift exchange like Xmas.

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 5:13:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

Is it? And how did you come across this information? Source?

Solely by I have never met or spoken to a dom that does not expect the basic kneeling.

I have a Master, and although I used to kneel for him, it was never humiliating. We don't 'do' humiliation. Nothing I do for him is humiliating...at least, I never get that feeling. What I get is a feeling of love, trust, adoration...and quite often a lot of hotness.

Now I don't kneel for him for medical reasons, but if I ever can again, there would still be no humiliation.

And as for the being equal - yes, we are. We are both 50% of the relationship and both contribute our time, effort and emotions to keep the relationship going. I don't give any more than he does - we love and support each other when it's needed.

But he's still the Master, I'm still his slave. Our roles are different, but our contribution is equally valuable.

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 5:15:39 AM

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I don't see anyone making fun of you Timont. But every one of us is entitled to our own thoughts, valuee, and opinions.

I believe submission, to the right person, can be a gift. That person must be someone you are in a long term relationship with. If you give to every Tom, Dick, and Harry, the value is diminished and it is no longer a gift.

Humiliation is not inherently a part of every BDSM relationship. Yes, some people get off on it. Humiliate me, and I am likely to punch you in the mouth.

I kneel for one individual and one individual only. I kneel for God. And so far, none of the men I have been involved with have had an issue with this.

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 5:15:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
it's not a gift exchange like Xmas.

It pretty much is, for me. Or it would be, if I were lucky. Damned fine gift exchange, actually.

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 5:39:46 AM

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Not sure whom youre responding to that you feel is making fun of you - where did that come from?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Timonat

Yes I agree completely. I for example, want the romance part aswell, as I seek substance and balance as I believe that is what it takes to make a long term relationship both worthwhile and possible. Just the kink alone, is not enough for me.

That is my interpretation and what I want, and I should not be made fun of because of it.

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 5:41:09 AM

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Using FR:

I am one of those people who absolutely loathe the "submission is a gift" concept.

Why? B/c as someone else said, calling something you need and crave a "gift" to be handed out like chocolates is deceitful and disingenuous, at best.

My opinion is that *most* people are somewhat submissive, that is, would rather follow the leader than have to take charge. To me there really isn't anything special about being submissive, it's not that hard to follow a good leader, although I *do* understand there are people who can fuck that up, too.

Excellent (as opposed to mediocre) leadership is hard to find and is rarely undervalued. In *my* mind, that's a gift.

Of course, you can't have dominance w/o submission, so there is a synergy there, an exchange there, that can't be denied.

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 5:45:27 AM

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quote:

Who in their right mind would be in loving relationship with someone who made them feel like shit??

Many, many, many, many, many, many, many people. Many people dont have love in their dynamics. And whos to say if theyre in their right mind or not?

_____________________________

The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.

The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 5:47:50 AM

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My reaction would be "stop being pretentious", something you want to do for yourself is not a gift, you don't consider the money you give pay for a pint a gift, you want the pint, I don't consider cooking a nice meal a gift, because I do like cooking, it's for my own pleasure.

This whole talk about "gifting somebody with submission" is nothing but glorifying a perfectly natural relationship, a woman doesn't "gift" a guy with having sex, sex happens because both want sex, same with D/s in a D/s relationship, it's how people are wired. It would be a gift if the person really isn't submissive and forces him or herself to be submissive to please a dominant partner.

Why not just go with the natural flow of such a relationship and enjoy it for what it is? Mutually fulfilling. Why does it have to be dressed up as a "gift"?

I recently stumbled across something where a person talked about the wonderous joys of submissive men. Almost made me puke and I wondered why the suck up? About as bad as some "odes to dominant women" <belch> Submissive men are not some special subspecies bred in a secret lab, they are men, potential partners for women being attracted to them, just like dominant women aren't super duper special creatures.
Being submissive or being dominant doesn't make anybody special, just like a particular taste for food doesn't make somebody special, it's the way we are and it makes sense to find a partner who compliments you.

I don't believe that BDSM relationships are essentially different than vanilla relationships, to make it work you need 2 partners who mesh well, sexually and otherwise, if that doesn't happen the relationship doesn't survive, doesn't matter if it's BDSM or vanilla, the vanilla equivalent would possibly be one partner with an extremely high sex drive and the other with a low sex drive, not a good mix, just like a submissive person wouldn't be well matched with somebody who doesn't want or need submission.
It really is about compatibility and not "gifting"

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to PeonForHer)

RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 6:01:51 AM

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Read the end of the " a mature submissive" discussion under "ask a submissive" that's how all this "gift of submission" thing got started.

(in reply to JanahX)

RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 6:05:09 AM

lizi

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I'll admit the phrase "gift of submission" squicks me out. The concept is too flowery to sit right with me, and I don't like the focus on me. It's also become kind of a rallying point for the idealistic romantic type. There's not a thing wrong with romance- it's just not me. When I read about the "gift of submission" it sounds like a Hallmark card, a sanitized cliche for the masses. Which once again is fine for whoever finds that the concept quickens their heartbeat and gets their panties wet, I just can't get behind it.

I turn away from it partly because it's an often trotted out bit of sentimental, high-schoolish, tripe (IMO), and partly because I'm uncomfortable with being so presumptuous to act as though I'm giving a 'gift'.

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 6:11:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Dominating someone, you can do that to anybody in any situation, even at work, you can dominate anybody if you wanted to. It doesn't really take alot to dominate. Hell, many bosses at work do it all the time.

I think we have a different understanding of what "Dominating" means. I certainly wouldn't claim to be able to "dominate any body in any situation" according to the way I define the term. Nor would I say it's easy.

My domination is as much gift, just as a sub person's submission is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

You mean as a sub, you are your dom's equal?

Hmm... again this rather depends on what you're putting into the balance. I want an equal relationship with my sub, absolutely. Equal in terms of respect, equal in terms of value, equal in terms of the right to be fulfilled and to grow.

Sure, there's an inequality of "power", but that doesn't need to imply an inequality of love, respect, value etc, surely?

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 6:29:07 AM

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~ Fast Reply ~

Another thought on the concept of submission being a gift. To me, a gift is something you go out of your way to do or give to another. My submission to him is a natural expression of myself - I do not go out of my way to do this. It is inherent to who I am. To consider what I give to him as a gift would be *less* special to me than the idea and reality of having a place to freely be who I am.

In turn, he can freely be who he is, with me. He doesn't go out of his way to lead me, it's who he is.

With that in mind, kneeling to him is NOT humiliating, it is liberating and lifts me up. I don't need to present myself as a gift to feel special; I'm special for who I am - to myself, to him, to my family, to friends. As they are to me.

Finally, he already has me. How can I gift him what he already has? That would be like taking something from his house that he already owns, wrapping it up, and giving it to him.

Giving myself to him was something I *wanted* to do, because it was good for me to do so. Submitting to him fulfills me, so if it's a gift, maybe it's a gift to myself?

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 6:31:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Submitting to him fulfills me, so if it's a gift, maybe it's a gift to myself?

BOOM!

<tips hat>

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 6:59:58 AM

SlipSlidingAway

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To the OP: I don't really have a problem with the phrase. I don't think it's accurate, and I don't use it myself, but I certainly understand why it has an appeal.

My personal philosophy on gifts is thus: I give gifts without strings attached. A gift may be given for an occasion (birthday,wedding,holiday, etc). Or a gift may be given just because I am in a giving mood. When I "gift" something I am not expecting anything in return (except maybe a "thank you") - it's not conditional on any behavior of the recipient. Once given, there really is not much I can do about how the "gift" is cared for. It's no longer mine, in any way, shape, or form.

My submission, however, definitely comes with strings attached. It sort of has to. There are people that I simply cannot "give" it to; because they don't know what to do with it, don't respect it, won't nurture it, or define the word in such a way that it's not related to my submission in the least. It's not something I can "give" away and then forget about. It's not something I can entrust ownership of without expecting specific things in return. I think to call submission a gift cheapens it's value and it also minimizes the dom's role in all of this.

A Dom/sub relationship is just that: a relationship. It can be a lot of work. While being a submissive comes naturally to me (with certain people), the actual submission can be a struggle at times. It's not all easy, it's not all fun, and while it's all rewarding (in the right relationship/circumstances), it's not something that I really give up ownership of. Now, I know that might get some folks knickers in a knot, but the truth is that I think that's a good thing. My submission is more than a gift, it's a commitment. I am going to work through the hard bits on my end. And, in my world, it's a mutual commitment- so the dominant has committed to dominate (in whatever terms he and I have mutually agreed upon when we hashed things out). It's part of the deal when I agree to submit. If it was just a "gift", I doubt that I would be all that vested, or willing to obey when the going got tough.

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(in reply to crazyml)

RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 7:12:16 AM

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in this girls humble opinion. submission is a gift and should not be taken back. what that person does with it is their choice. that is why people should take time to get to know someone and make sure they are the right person to bestoe the gift to. sorry i cant spell good. but anyways like i say.l am unconditional with a Dom and when i hand that gift to them it is perminante until it is returned because they no longer want it. in my heart as a slave it is what it is. to take a collar and i say i submit to you heart mind body and soul. that is it. the gift has been given. it all depends on how you look at it and what type of person you are and the depthof the person you are and do you stand by your word and mean what you say. or do you walk away just because you dont liek it any more. that is what is wrong with this world to many people jump into things and then run whenit is not good. a gift of submission is just it. you are giving to them with the intent and know and expecting nothing in return. but then again it all depends on the dynamic in which you are involved in and the agreement that was made before you entered into that agreement. but remember this is only this girls humble opinion and nothing more. to each his own. i am a slave at heart and always have been since i was a young girl. yesi know what i want and am demanding on my profile because wheni submit and give that gift it will be with the right person. choose wisely your gift for it has special meaning to the one it is given to. if you just give it to anyone with out thinking deal with your choices. to many think it is a game or just a fantisy to live but not real. when they get a taste of the real thing they run or say my forgot the word but their phase is done with. submission is not a game. Dom's are real to an extent most do not understand unless you have lived it hard core in the real world 24/7. do your reserch. to many subs and slave do not take this life seriously or do not have a full understandingof what it is they are doing. they need mentors and others who have been in this lifestyle to educate them as to how things are. yes all are different in allot of ways therefore how you act will be different. but from what i read on here their are allot of fake doms and subs. learn what it truely means to submit and hand over your submission. then you will see what it is. to me it is uncondition, there is no right to say no unless previously agree upon and yo ahve choices but then again are you truely giving a gift of submission if you say no to them. hard limits and bodly harm and things like that are understandable but those are agreed upon before things get that far. but as usuall this girl is rambling in her humble opinion. some may not like what i say and such is life to each their own this is just how this girl sees things from a slaves heart perspective.

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 7:14:17 AM

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I don't have any particular problem seeing Carol or any piece of Carol as a "gift". I dislike the whole "gift of submission" idea because it just reeks of pampered little princesses lounging about waiting for a worthy male to give their gift to.

There are some other issues I have with it (like stuff I have to purchase is not a gift) but they're in the same bucket as other places I argue with "poetic interpretations" of things.

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 7:16:07 AM

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Paragraphs are your friend, b/c someone might actually want to read about your "slave's heart."

All this drivel from someone whose second sentence of their profile is a direct command.

You gotta love it !!

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 7:19:25 AM

Kana

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It ain't a gift. A gift is by definition, something freely given expecting nothing in return.

When a Sir takes her service, he' s accepting her submission and also a whole lot of responsibility.
Surrendering has strings attached, and therefore has an inherent implied reciprocity, perhaps unequal, but still, remittance occurs, thus rendering the concept of submission as a gift invalid.

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RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 7:19:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
My opinion is that *most* people are somewhat submissive, that is, would rather follow the leader than have to take charge. To me there really isn't anything special about being submissive, it's not that hard to follow a good leader, although I *do* understand there are people who can fuck that up, too....Excellent (as opposed to mediocre) leadership is hard to find and is rarely undervalued. In *my* mind, that's a gift.

That's pretty much how I see it. Although I'd change it a bit. Even though I figure subs outnumber doms 19:1 finding excellence in any category is always hard and pretty much always valued.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle - 8/21/2012 7:23:41 AM

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--FR--

The first thing I want to say is that the "a gift is something you give without expecting anything in return" mantra is nonsense. If you give a person a birthday gift or a Christmas gift year after year, but they don't give one back to you, then you would soon stop giving them gifts as well. The exceptions to this would be when you get love, friendship, and/or affection in return, but the fact remains that you still expect SOMETHING even though it may not be a physical object you receive. Even when you give to charity or to a homeless person on the street you do it because it makes you feel good to have done something worthwhile. If it made you feel lousy then you wouldn't do it. So you got something you wanted in return.

Another mantra often touted is, "a gift is something that, once given, you don't take back". Submission, as in "the gift of submission" is NOT something that is taken back. If you stop submitting to someone you don't get back those hours, days, weeks, months or years. You simply stop submitting. Submission is an ongoing thing, like a stream of water. If you have a stream on your land, but your neighbor needs water for his garden you can divert your stream so that you neighbor benefits. That is a gift. If you and your neighbor have an argument, or if your neighbor moves you can stop that flow of water to his place. You stop the gift, but you don't get that water back. To me it would be the same with the "gift of submission".

But is "submission" really a "gift". That is all semantics. The submissive gets to decide to whom they submit. If their submission is forced upon them it certainly is not a gift that they give. It is taken and it is, in this country, illegal. So the submissive gets to choose to whom they submit. That submissive act is a gift since the dominant doesn't have to "take" it. In that respect, to me, submission is a gift.

But the bottom line is, why does it even matter what one person or another calls it? This is like the "forced bi" term, or even the term "slave" in that none of the phrases are necessarily accurate in any literal sense, but so what? What difference does it make what term or phrase someone else may use? When was the last time anyone got all up in arms about someone using the term, "screwing the pooch" instead of just saying "wasting time"? I say, just let it be and let people use whatever term makes them comfortable.

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(in reply to crazyml)

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