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RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/25/2012 7:34:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

As for Zimmer's causing the entire incident, I wonder why no one in these discussions ever acknowledges that the community suffered several break-ins by young black males, giving Zimmer cause as neighborhood watch to take the action he did: calling the police and seeking after the activities of Martin. Profiling? Yes. But, in this instance perhaps justifable.

Uh,. many of the discussions did vince, and this is disingenous. the action he did? calling the police, seeking after the activities of Martin?

nobody has avoided that or said he shouldn't have, but to kill the guy is a little outside the purview of many of your neigborhood watch wannabe cops, is the praxis of the issue here.

I am happy to be corrected on the first, Ron. I listed the Reuters article in the long thread and couldn't get any response to it. Glad that changed while i was away walking on the moon.

Definately agree that killing is not something with which the neighborhood watch is tasked. That is not the issue for a Florida court; it is whether he thought he was in serious danger. Folks here are suggesting on no evidence that he had his gun drawn before the altercation. I don't see that based on the absence of Martin's DNA.

And according to the State's "star witness" Deedee, Trayvon updated her on so many little details...when he put his hoodie up, when he went to seek cover from the rain, when he went to check out the "white guy" in the truck...but there's never any mention of the gun being out. (In actuality she'll probably never get called to the stand; her testimony is too problematic for the prosecution).

Meanwhile, George's claim is that the gun was holstered until right before he pulled it to shoot. The DNA tests are consistent with that claim.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 1:21:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

You *are* aware that the Diallo killers were all found NOT GUILTY? Therefore, Trayvon Martin wouldn't be guilty of anything, would he, for doing the EXACT SAME THING.

From whose testimony did the furtive move come?

Zimmerman's. Why?

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

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(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 1:23:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Yeah, it is possible that Martin was innocent when he got on top of Z and punched him. It is also possible that both are innocent, or both could carry guilt. The innocence of one does not logically and of necessity impute guilt to the other. Where did you get that idea?

Logic. If Zimmerman was defending himself from an unlawful assault, then that requires that Trayvon Martin committed the crime of assault.

Otherwise, Zimmerman killed a kid who didn't do anything.

Oh, wait. He did.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 3:45:31 AM

mons

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Farlebargle

It is also possbile that he killed an innocent kid for not reason, why is it your not getting?

He was told not to leave his car, again I repeat he was told not to leave his car!

There was no reason in the world that he (Zimmerman) should has left his car, not one reason at all!!!!

I do not mean to be rude or have no respect for other answer and opinions on this matter but he was told not
to follow him, or engage him at all the police were on there way!!

It is a reason that some of you do not want to get the real reason behind what really happen, he was a black you teen
out to buy a treat, and Zimmerman only saw this and went after him!

There is a special type of racial hate that show when it comes to black adult you can help ,feed clothe and teach them after school
studies, but once they become older society not all but some, will see them as a threat!

It is not fair but at time life is not fair! It has happen to me I am well liked and respected in my community but when if it is a black male,
many of the people are frighten! Now this maybe because of an attack, or someone saw a mugging, I had a fear of white people as a child they were killing people in
large number!

But I know now that not everyone whom is white is like this! I know this now and have so for many, many years!

So Zimmerman taught after school programs helped the children, but once they become adults the story changes and I understand!

But no one can just shoot someone and this is after he follow him for some time. it breaks my heart to see this happening, two mothers the one
whom will not ever see her son again is the one I am greatly worried for, to lose a child but to lose him to a rent a cop is a nightmare!

So this will go on and on! Please take the time to look up again the news of Emmet Till! When I first watch this on PBS Eye on the prize , I had nightmares
my twin and I for weeks!

It will not be settle for some of you and me and other we see the end and know the true! I am not and I repeat calling anyone a "RACIST"

Mons

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 3:54:14 AM

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once again you are jumping the wrong person for a position they do not hold.

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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to mons)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 4:55:57 AM

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Meh, it's cool. It's the Internet, and tempers get up on this topic. No worries.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 5:56:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

You *are* aware that the Diallo killers were all found NOT GUILTY? Therefore, Trayvon Martin wouldn't be guilty of anything, would he, for doing the EXACT SAME THING.

From whose testimony did the furtive move come?

Zimmerman's. Why?

Really? I heard Z say during his walk thru that Martin's attack was a surprise.
Nevermind. I found it. In one statement he did mention taking out his cell phone.
"furtive" is your characterization, however.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 9/26/2012 6:18:53 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 6:12:28 AM

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In the police video Zimmerman tells the police the Martin saw the gun and attempted to grab it. Zimmerman states he clamps his arm against the side of his body where the holster is and traping Martin hand so Martin can not pull the gun from the holster. All this while Martin is bashing Zimmerman head on the ground or was it when Martin had both his hand on Zimmerman mouth and nose to prevent Zimmerman from calling for help, which he claims is his voice on the recording? Further if you saw the Dr. Phil interview and/or read the book that Osterman claims is what Zimmerman told him about what happen, Osterman stated in his book that Zimmerman and Martin both had their hands on the gun fighting for possession of the weapon, no Martin DNA on gun or holster...go figure.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 6:13:37 AM

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Zimmerman has claim he was attacked from behind by Martin in one of his fairy tales.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 6:52:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Zimmerman has claim he was attacked from behind by Martin in one of his fairy tales.

If Zimmer's accounts are confusing, the accounts given by witnesses are even more so (see Wiki)
So yeah, go figure.

When the first reports of this event surfaced I felt the outrage offered by media commentators (I do not watch Fox News; I am strictly social liberal) So, here were all these MSNBC and CNN commentators lamenting the evil of the deed, the guilt of Zimmerman, and the ineptitude of the Sanford Police. And there was the Rev Al leading protests in the streets. The TV photos of Martin were of a 14 year old. Not the later described 6 foot tall teen/man. The only photo shown of Z made him look pretty bad. A lot of propaganda in those photos. Along with everyone else I thought Z guilty as hell and the florida stand your ground law outrageous. Understandably Z was in hiding. But then Z appeared in court and his side(s) of the story began to emerge. And he was a real person, not a caricature of the racist that had been portrayed.

A real person is entitled to a trial in a court room with defense counsel. Not by the media piling on or by people marching in the streets, nor by us here on this message board, although that is what we do for amusement.

So, we shall see what happens in court.

If Zimmerman is set free, he and his wife can go live with Casey Anthony, because like her they will never be free.

*shrugs*

(in reply to Nosathro)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 7:07:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mons

He was told not to leave his car, again I repeat he was told not to leave his car!

Untrue. He was never told not to leave the car.

(in reply to mons)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 7:52:54 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If Zimmerman is set free, he and his wife can go live with Casey Anthony, because like her they will never be free.

*shrugs*

My personal belief is that Zimmy grabbed Martin to hold him for the cops and thats how the fight occured, given Zimmys aggressiveness not to let the teenager "get away".. and given Zimmy's propensity to beat people up like his ex-"ho" girlfriend/fiance and a woman at his security job (which is why he was fired) and of course him beating up the cop, his aggressiveness/harassment of others like the ex-coworker, etc.. That is what I believe since he has shown he likes to lie (even under oath) and let/encourage others lie (even under oath) for him also so I dont believe his version of events.. I also think he has mental problems and the drugs he was on likely made that aggressiveness worse.. JMO

I disagree with you about him and his sleezy wife never being free.. they can change their names and the way they look and eventually people will forget who they were and they will live relatively free & normal lives.. that is, of course, on the assumption that after this he doesnt get himself into even more trouble a few years down the road.. They seem to be doing fine with all that even now.. well,.. except for that purdy anklet he has to wear and his pesky curfew..

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(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 9:10:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If Zimmerman is set free, he and his wife can go live with Casey Anthony, because like her they will never be free.

*shrugs*

My personal belief is that Zimmy grabbed Martin to hold him for the cops and thats how the fight occured, given Zimmys aggressiveness not to let the teenager "get away".. and given Zimmy's propensity to beat people up like his ex-"ho" girlfriend/fiance and a woman at his security job (which is why he was fired) and of course him beating up the cop, his aggressiveness/harassment of others like the ex-coworker, etc.. That is what I believe since he has shown he likes to lie (even under oath) and let/encourage others lie (even under oath) for him also so I dont believe his version of events.. I also think he has mental problems and the drugs he was on likely made that aggressiveness worse.. JMO

I disagree with you about him and his sleezy wife never being free.. they can change their names and the way they look and eventually people will forget who they were and they will live relatively free & normal lives.. that is, of course, on the assumption that after this he doesnt get himself into even more trouble a few years down the road.. They seem to be doing fine with all that even now.. well,.. except for that purdy anklet he has to wear and his pesky curfew..

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I respect that naturally. My concern is that our opinions are often colored by extraneous influences, to wit:

Media portrayal of Martin and Zimmerman
The Associated Press noted that initially the most widely used media photo of Martin was several years old and showed him as a "baby-faced boy," rather than as a young man in his late teens. To represent Zimmerman, the media chose a shot of a beefy 21 year-old Zimmerman taken seven years prior to the shooting, whereas recent photos show him as slim-faced and more mature. The two outdated photos chosen by the media may have helped shape the initial public perception of the shooting. The AP quoted academic Kenny Irby on the expected effect, "When you have such a lopsided visual comparison, it just stands to reason that people would rush to judgment," and another academic, Betsi Grabe, as saying that journalists will present stories as a struggle between good and evil "if the ingredients are there."[339]
Good vs Evil

(in reply to tj444)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 9:15:54 AM

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The one of him dead and Zimmerman in life is gonna be whats in the courtroom.

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(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 9:24:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The one of him dead and Zimmerman in life is gonna be whats in the courtroom.

True. But that is not a verdict.

We all know what happened . . . but none of us were there

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 9:53:50 AM

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Something someone listed out elsewhere that I think lays it out. This list of facts are all things that are established in the evidence released by the State, and does not in any way rely on George's testimony. (With minor editing).

FACT: Zimmerman had a legal right to be inside and outside his vehicle, at all times on the night in question
FACT: Zimmerman attempting to follow Martin is likewise not inherently illegal. (Further, doing so does not legally constitute “stalking”, under any circumstance)
FACT: Martin attempted to elude Zimmerman before Zimmerman ever got out of his vehicle
FACT: Martin successfully eluded Zimmerman
FACT: Zimmerman's exit of the vehicle was in direct response to dispatcher asking which way Martin was running.
FACT: After successfully eluding Zimmerman, Martin reached the vicinity of Brandi Green’s home
FACT: Martin refused to continue running, and refused to go inside Brandi Green’s home. (These facts clearly imply a lack of fear on Martin’s part.)
FACT: Martin returned to the location the encounter occurred, else it couldn't have happened.
FACT: Martin broke Zimmerman’s nose
FACT: Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating Zimmerman
FACT: Zimmerman made attempts to escape, but was prevented from doing so by Martin
FACT: Zimmerman’s head/face was 45% covered in his own blood
FACT: Zimmerman had lacerations on the back of his head
FACT: Zimmerman had swelling of the head, bruising, and black eyes
FACT: Martin’s only injuries were to his knuckles, and the gunshot wound to his chest

FACT: Absent contradictory evidence, the above facts clearly exonerate Zimmerman. He has an open-and-shut claim of justified use of lethal force in self-defense, both to end the commission of a felony aggravated battery, and due to reasonable fear of imminent risk to life or bodily injury.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 9:55:36 AM

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And that is usually the case, even the folks that were there dont know what happened, they differ in their stories, and tell multiple stories and whatever, but a verdict will be rendered as it is in every other case, by a jury of his peers, none of which were there.

And the story and stories will be led and elucidated on by two lawyers that weren't there.

America, be there; or be square.

DobieGillis.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 10:04:04 AM

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quote:

Raikun
FACT: Martin attempted to elude Zimmerman before Zimmerman ever got out of his vehicle
FACT: Martin successfully eluded Zimmerman
FACT: Zimmerman's exit of the vehicle was in direct response to dispatcher asking which way Martin was running.
FACT: After successfully eluding Zimmerman, Martin reached the vicinity of Brandi Green’s home
FACT: Martin refused to continue running, and refused to go inside Brandi Green’s home. (These facts clearly imply a lack of fear on Martin’s part.)
FACT: Martin returned to the location the encounter occurred, else it couldn't have happened.
FACT: Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating Zimmerman
FACT: Zimmerman made attempts to escape, but was prevented from doing so by Martin

FACT: This is uncorroborated, unproven and incredible asswipe.

The rest may or may not have any commerce with truth.

FACT: Martin’s only injuries were to his knuckles, and the gunshot wound to his chest

Which do you think were the worst injuries in your opinion, the nose, the back of the head or the big fucking garbage can sized breezeway in the thorax of young and dead Mr. Martin?

Waltz me thru the forensics on that if you got a sec.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 10:08:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

FACT: This is uncorroborated, unproven and incredible asswipe.

Every single bit of it is in the evidence.

quote:

Which do you think were the worst injuries in your opinion, the nose, the back of the head or the big fucking garbage can sized breezeway in the thorax of young and dead Mr. Martin?

That question is not what's at issue. The question is: Did George have a reasonable belief that the bullet was needed to prevent serious bodily injury.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case - 9/26/2012 10:13:43 AM

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Every single bit of it is in the evidence.

Well, not really, one interpretation of that is in somebodies slant.

That question is not what's at issue. The question is: Did George have a reasonable belief that the bullet was needed to prevent serious bodily injury.

Believe me, that is so not the question. The question is more along the lines of:

Would any reasonable man, upon a hearing of the available evidence, and testimony, believe that undoubtably George Zimmermans multiple accounts of the incident are true to the finest detail.

That will be the reality of it.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Raiikun)

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