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RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/26/2012 6:40:38 AM

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quote:

What does "submissive" even mean to the errrrr...., more mature subs?

This thread is not "List the 1,001 ways you ARE submissive" but is pondering some issues that turned out to be sticking points for some.

I've been willing to TRY many things, but with experience, have learned they are not for me. I've learned I don't like having no pubic hair. Does this mean I'm not really submissive?

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(in reply to Focus50)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/26/2012 6:50:08 AM

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My Master does not want me to change he like the song loves me just the way i am. If a Dom wants to change me than why did hi pick me to begin with? Yes i am trying to lose weight but that is foe me, my choice not his. He is supporting me in it cause it is what i want and is healthier for me.

If i was looking and a Dm did not like me thw way i am then he would not be the Dom for me.

Matt's littleone

(in reply to kalikshama)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/26/2012 8:04:30 AM

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As a middle aged sub

: It took me many, many years to become comfortable with myself-inside and out. If someone wanted to make significant changes (shaving and hair length/color isn't an issue) it could have the tendency to damage my hard earned self-worth/self-esteem. I don't fault anyone from wanting their ideal mate; they should have exactly what they want and should seek someone that already match those wants or are willing to change significantly to serve them. Being unwilling to make those changes does not make me less submissive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

And I don't understand this very vanilla attitude on a site like this. Wtf, date someone I don't like????

Hair is a trait? Or a deal breaker? If I want a girl with longer hair, I need to find one who already has it? Then there's that other hair I mentioned.... Not having X-ray vision, wellll...., you see the obvious problem that might present, no?

I mentioned this general negative attitude to (minor) change in my second post (2 middle aged subs I knew) and am now seeing it all over this thread.

What does "submissive" even mean to the errrrr...., more mature subs?

Focus.

edited cause I need more coffee!

< Message edited by sblady -- 9/26/2012 8:09:35 AM >

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RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/26/2012 12:17:16 PM

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To be honest, my self esteem is higher when I know I'm doing or changing for him and him alone. I feel more comfortable because I no longer have to worry that he sees me as ugly or fat or whatever. My self esteem is wrapped up in him for the most part. I'm always worried about how he feels and what he wants of me and if I feel I'm being less than, then my self esteem becomes a problem for me.

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RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/26/2012 12:49:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

I mentioned this general negative attitude to (minor) change in my second post (2 middle aged subs I knew) and am now seeing it all over this thread.

Focus.[/font][/size][/color]

This is the problem in a nutshell. The fact that you find hair length to be a minor thing doesn't mean she will automatically see it in that matter. To someone who lost a mother/daughter/sister to cancer and saw them become bald, being told to shave her hair may well not be minor but major.

Beyond that. You don't collar a woman on a first date. You talk about stuff over time, which means sufficient time that you should feel comfortable asking how she feels about pubic hair, hair length, hair color, and everything else. If you don't, then do expect some land mines of this sort to occur plus accusations that you lied by omission and didn't give her the option of telling you that you weren't compatible before you got involved.

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RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/26/2012 1:59:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

I mentioned this general negative attitude to (minor) change in my second post (2 middle aged subs I knew) and am now seeing it all over this thread.

Focus.[/font][/size][/color]

This is the problem in a nutshell. The fact that you find hair length to be a minor thing doesn't mean she will automatically see it in that matter. To someone who lost a mother/daughter/sister to cancer and saw them become bald, being told to shave her hair may well not be minor but major.

Beyond that. You don't collar a woman on a first date. You talk about stuff over time, which means sufficient time that you should feel comfortable asking how she feels about pubic hair, hair length, hair color, and everything else. If you don't, then do expect some land mines of this sort to occur plus accusations that you lied by omission and didn't give her the option of telling you that you weren't compatible before you got involved.

I agree and I find it offensive that the term "mature submissives" is being used here in the discussion. I see many responses in a similar vein from all ages of submissives.

I think it is ridiculous to label someone wanting to be with someone who already accepts you as is, as being not very submissive and only vanilla.

That makes no sense whatsoever, unless as a Dominant, you feel a submissive has no right to her opinion about herself.

Things like hair, weight, personal style, clothes, body mods, etc. are very important, so don't assume anyone will blindly go along with what a Dominant says he wants.

As I said earlier, I do things to please my partners in any way I can, but I do what I do to please myself first, since I know what looks good on me.

And THAT is being a mature sub. Not age. Attitude.

(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/26/2012 3:11:37 PM

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Id change everything for my Sir - as long as it was something that i had originally wanted to change for myself.

and yes, i am a good sub - hell, i'm a GREAT sub!

Bigger boobs - hell no!
Brow lift - sure, since thats about the only plastic surgery i'd go for.
Brandings - uh, no, hell no!
Tattoos - maybe, but i haven't seen anything i want permanently on my body.
Change my hair colour - um, no. Love my hair colour and wouldn't want the expense or the mess of dying it. And it probably wouldn't take anyway, since silver hair is very hard to cover.

(in reply to sexyred1)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/26/2012 6:06:20 PM

tsuta

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i'm genderfluid and for a few years now i've kept my hair short and i realised that i feel more comfortable in my skin like that, so being forced to grow it back to a longer lenght would make me very uncomfortable, if someone wanted me to have long hair then i'm probably not the right person for him (since a dom like that probably wants a feminine sub and i'm not always feminine). Shaving my head is no problem, i've done it twice before.

Being hairless might be a problem because shaving completely all the time makes my skin too irritated (about once a week - or 2-3 weeks when i'm alone forever lol - i shave all but a triangle or large landing strip but more than that gets really itchy on the front) but i guess if someone i had a serious relationship with wanted that and was willing to pay for laser hair removal then alright.

Tattoos are a possibility, depending on what and where. I've already got one on my back.

Brands, i'm not sure, sounds really painful. For a serious, long term, then probably yes. Piercings, i'm really not sure, genital is probably out of question.

Plastic surgery? hahaha, thanks i think i have a new thing to add to my hard limits now (didn't think of it before).

Weight loss, well sure, i need to lose weight so that's fine as long as it's realistic and a healthy weight. I started doing karate, i want to get in better shape already, anyway.

I like all my body parts where they are and i don't want anything chopped off :P

I guess on this topic i'm not willing to do much. I want to submit in other ways, i guess. And i want to submit to someone who wants me the way i am.. i mean, improving my personality, character, manners, etc of course yes but my body apart from a few things i'd want myself? no. My core, i mean, as a mostly androgyn person? no. I mean... ok dressing up sometimes is ok but being a girly doll all the time? no. Fortunately my potential Sir likes my masculine side too :)

(in reply to ServosCor)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/26/2012 7:17:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

... to change your body, if your Dominant wanted it? For the purposes of this argument, lets ignore any money or health concerns. Would it matter very much if the person's ideal body image were quite different from your own? Would you lose, or gain, 40 pounds if they wanted it? Dye your hair? Shave your hair? Plastic surgery? For dominants, have you ever required your sub to change their body image?

Pam

Bottom line: I would not change my body for a dominant in any way that would not be acceptable to me if I were making the change for myself.

So I would not even consider plastic surgery or an unhealthy weight change. In fact, I can't even imagine being with a dominant who would suggest such things, and if they did I would boot them to the curb.

In terms of temporary changes, like hair, it would have to be something I was comfortable with in a vanilla setting.

(in reply to gungadin09)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 5:25:11 AM

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From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

This is the problem in a nutshell. The fact that you find hair length to be a minor thing doesn't mean she will automatically see it in that matter. To someone who lost a mother/daughter/sister to cancer and saw them become bald, being told to shave her hair may well not be minor but major.

Well no, that's not the problem. I wasn't asking anyone to cut their hair but to grow it longer. Fer instance, if her hair is long and I want it shaved bald, then we don't work out, it probably takes her years to regain what I made her lose. Fair enough, a BIG ask. But if her hair is short and I want her to grow it long and we ultimately don't work out, it takes what, one trip to the hairdressers?

quote:

Beyond that. You don't collar a woman on a first date. You talk about stuff over time, which means sufficient time that you should feel comfortable asking how she feels about pubic hair, hair length, hair color, and everything else. If you don't, then do expect some land mines of this sort to occur plus accusations that you lied by omission and didn't give her the option of telling you that you weren't compatible before you got involved.

Here I sorta agree. First, I think it's the "middle-aged" thing. With age, we become less tolerant to change because we've spent a lifetime finding out what we're comfortable with. At 58, that's easy for me to appreciate.

And yeah, that "first date" bizzo is true, that trust hasn't been earnt etc, but then comes the female expertise for playing both ends against the middle. They say they want honesty, but it's somewhat of a minefield for the male foolish enough to give it. I never made any demands of the 2 subs I spoke of, but they asked what attributes I liked in a woman. Resisting the temptation to specify a very reasonable petite redhead, 5'8" and 125lbs, age 35-36, independently wealthy former swim-suit model with no kids, addictions or baggage in general, I otherwise told them.

Without ever even seeing so much as a pic of either, turns out both had short hair and that I should accept them for who they are. Followed up with that most priceless of loony logic I'm now seeing in this thread, that wanting them to change their hair means I don't really like them in the first place. Sheesh! Btw, this was 2 separate "getting to know you" times, not both at the same time.

Again, not asking anyone to have surgery or get a tattoo or anything that couldn't readily be put back as it was. As politically incorrect or unpallatable as it is, the most successful at female conquest are great liars. <As I hunker down for the flak from that home truth> lol

Focus.

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(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 5:37:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I find it offensive that the term "mature submissives" is being used here in the discussion. I see many responses in a similar vein from all ages of submissives.

Let's see, "getting offended" seems one of your trademark moves, from what I recall.

And no, it's absolutely true that the older you get, the more resistant to change you become. But I'll bite, how does one say "older" without mentioning age?

"Attitude" is a grubby, foul-mouthed teen with a bum-fluff goatee wearing baggy pants and dragging on a ciggy - he's done it all...!

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

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(in reply to sexyred1)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 6:58:01 AM

searching4mysir

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For me, body-mods are a no. The only piercings I have are in my ears (one hole each) and rarely wear earrings. If he WANTED me to wear earrings, I would. I have longish hair and have no problem changing either the color or the length as long as it is easily wearable in a corporate environment. If he wanted me to shave my head, he better be willing to shell out the cash for a REALLY good human hair wig to wear around family and in vanilla environments.

Humiliation is a hard limit for me and he knows it.

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(in reply to Focus50)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 7:48:43 AM

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I think for me, the older I get the more I don't really care so much about what changes Master would want. It just really isn't that big a deal. I think it's because once my husband passed away I realized that most things in life are just not important at all, not one tiny bit. I would rather change myself in ways He wants and keep him in my life than tell him no and lose him or our dynamic. The relationship is much more important than a little hair, weight, ink, etc....

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RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 9:32:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Here I sorta agree. First, I think it's the "middle-aged" thing. With age, we become less tolerant to change because we've spent a lifetime finding out what we're comfortable with. At 58, that's easy for me to appreciate.

I think this is it, really. Speaking for myself, I spent a lifetime twisting and turning myself into whatever someone else wanted me to be. After finding myself single without a clue who *I* was, I spent a lot of time, effort, energy, tears, etc., learning myself, liking myself and coming to really love and appreciate myself.

So now in my mid 40's, someone saying, "Hey I really want you to look like/be/change into XYZ," it's a big pill to swallow. I didn't do all that excruciating work just to change it on someone else's whim - couple that with the fact that *most* relationships don't ultimately work out. I figured men come and go, but I'm with myself forever.

So these days, I'm carefully aware of whether or not the changes he'd like to see can be done with me remaining true to my core self. If not, we have conversations about it.

Now sure, hair is hair. But to women, hair can be a huge reflection of self image. I mean HUGE. Men tend to not understand this, but in general (much as I hate generalizations), a woman's beauty image is connected to her hair. This is why many cancer patients are just as traumatized by losing their hair as they are by the cancer itself. Hair can completely change the way a woman sees her own external beauty. This is why many women (myself included) spend top dollar on hair styles and colors, and want their stylists to get it *just right*. Cutting an inch too much off can be a huge deal. The slightest incorrect tweak can be a big deal. Rational or not, logical or not, it's the way it is.

I wouldn't say I'm *that* picky about my hair, but I do take pride in its style and color, and in the way it shapes my face (hair can make a face look wider, longer, narrower, etc.) and so on. Hair too long can change the shape of a face. So can hair too short. So someone wanting me to make those changes in me is going to change the way I look, and the way I look is important to me.

That said, I've had fairly long hair for years and years and years. I just cut a little more than 3 inches, giving me a completely different look. It took over 3 years of being with him for me to comfortably do that. In 6 weeks I'm going red. It took gradually adding red hues to my hair over the course of a year to get me comfortable with the change that's to come. Gradual changes are less dramatic/traumatic than sudden ones.

Do I think he doesn't love me for who I am? Not a chance. He loved me when my body and hair were much different than they are today, and he's continued to love me and be patient with these changes. Had he wanted these changes right away, I would have suggested he find someone who looks like that. Instead, we've created an awesome relationship, regardless of my looks, and that's what's most important.

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RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 10:38:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I find it offensive that the term "mature submissives" is being used here in the discussion. I see many responses in a similar vein from all ages of submissives.

Let's see, "getting offended" seems one of your trademark moves, from what I recall.

And no, it's absolutely true that the older you get, the more resistant to change you become. But I'll bite, how does one say "older" without mentioning age?

"Attitude" is a grubby, foul-mouthed teen with a bum-fluff goatee wearing baggy pants and dragging on a ciggy - he's done it all...!

Focus.

Let's see. You would have no knowledge of my "trademark moves", so stop acting like you don't know you are insulting middle aged women all the time. Let's face it, you cannot stand any woman who has her own opinion and therefore, it is probably best for you to try relationships with women who are less intelligent and who believe the crap about changing if a Dom says so.

I find your attitude to be as you just described above, except you are not a teen.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 9/28/2012 10:40:24 AM >

(in reply to Focus50)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 12:54:20 PM

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I would, and since I have kind of rock bottom self esteem this topic of conversation comes up frequently.

I would have no qualms about changing my hair colour (I am already growing it longer since he likes it long), improving my fitness is something I'm trying; I would ultimately like to lose 20-30lbs/1-2 dress sizes; he's not a fan of tattoos or piercings so that's a moot point.

I have no problem with the idea of plastic surgery and would quite happily go along with getting it done if finances permitted.

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RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 1:17:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Hair is a trait? Or a deal breaker? If I want a girl with longer hair, I need to find one who already has it? Then there's that other hair I mentioned.... Not having X-ray vision, wellll...., you see the obvious problem that might present, no?

I mentioned this general negative attitude to (minor) change in my second post (2 middle aged subs I knew) and am now seeing it all over this thread.

What does "submissive" even mean to the errrrr...., more mature subs?

In my experience, people can have all sorts of dealbreakers, and there isn't an aspect -- big and small -- of a BDSM relationship that isn't open to negotiation, compromise and re-negotiation.

A lot of women have very strong views on their hair style, and if you make their hair a dealbreaker for you, a certain number will say "no thanks." At the very, you will have to have a conversation about why you want them to change their hair, and be open to listening to them, rather just taking the approach of, "You should just do it because I want it."

(in reply to Focus50)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 8:15:06 PM

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Focus, you may think growing their hair out is no big thing. But a woman your age with a career probably needs a more professional appearance. Because at 58 it's unlikely this is an entry level position. So yes, to you long hair is a minor difference, but to someone else it could well be a major one.

Did you ask them why they wouldn't grow their hair out? Because there could be good reasons. Sometimes being that they can't grow it out. Alopecia comes to mind.

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RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 8:58:23 PM

Posts: 3962
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Focus, you may think growing their hair out is no big thing. But a woman your age with a career probably needs a more professional appearance. Because at 58 it's unlikely this is an entry level position. So yes, to you long hair is a minor difference, but to someone else it could well be a major one.

Did you ask them why they wouldn't grow their hair out? Because there could be good reasons. Sometimes being that they can't grow it out. Alopecia comes to mind.

Well of course I asked.... And that's when that real nonsense I spoke of kicked in. That I should accept her (them) for who she is; that not liking short hair meant I didn't like her as a person blah blah.

And then I start getting my back up. Not that it got this far with them but in D/s, I'll always accept a valid reason but not an excuse.

Me, I suspect the real truth is what you touched on about that "first date" bizzo. That if we'd actually got to a first date for starters, but more importantly of getting to know each other in general and enjoying each other's company etc, yeah, probably they wouldn't have had some issue that otherwise threatens their own sense of self and independence.

Hell, as others have said, even vanillas will change their habits/appearance to please a particular partner. I've certainly done it in a D/s sense for my sub at the time who didn't like my moustache. My mo's are a cyclic thing - when I decide to grow one, I have it for years and when I decide I don't want one, it's gone for years. That particular sub didn't care for moustaches but nor did she (the IMPORTANT part) make a big deal of it. Now you see it -*poof*- now you don't.

Re those subs I spoke of; they asked and I (somewhat foolishly) answered truthfully. I never seem to learn that lesson....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: How far would you be willing to go... - 9/28/2012 10:13:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingreality

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Hair is a trait? Or a deal breaker? If I want a girl with longer hair, I need to find one who already has it? Then there's that other hair I mentioned.... Not having X-ray vision, wellll...., you see the obvious problem that might present, no?

I mentioned this general negative attitude to (minor) change in my second post (2 middle aged subs I knew) and am now seeing it all over this thread.

What does "submissive" even mean to the errrrr...., more mature subs?

In my experience, people can have all sorts of dealbreakers, and there isn't an aspect -- big and small -- of a BDSM relationship that isn't open to negotiation, compromise and re-negotiation.

A lot of women have very strong views on their hair style, and if you make their hair a dealbreaker for you, a certain number will say "no thanks." At the very, you will have to have a conversation about why you want them to change their hair, and be open to listening to them, rather just taking the approach of, "You should just do it because I want it."

Again, I didn't draw any line in the sand and pressure them to choose. They asked, I answered. The real gob-smacker was the logic of equating personal preferences to whether you actually like someone or not.

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to seekingreality)

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