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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:59:23 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think you will notice and came back and corrected myself.


No - after others and myself gave references to prove you were wrong, you then claimed you did research and found you were wrong - an apology is in order for your previous statements of fact that were completely wrong and misled the forum on the debate.  Until then - all statements by you have no credibility

Brosco


The BMA has no offical policy.  However, I will repeat again.  They do hold that any circumcision performed on non medical reasons is unethical.


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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:00:58 AM   
Brosco


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


The fact is there is NO evidence of benefits from circumcision and THERE IS evidence of a negative impact of circumcision. However much you bait me you can't change that simple fact.


and you cannot change the simple fact of your wild statements which you claimed were supported by ALL medical associations.  The one you quoted - you were WRONG!!!  and for stating ALL  you have yet to reference ONE!!! 

Until you apologise and admit you were WRONG - you have no credibility

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:03:26 AM   
Brosco


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quote:

The BMA has no offical policy.  However, I will repeat again.  They do hold that any circumcision performed on non medical reasons is unethical.



Reference please.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:11:03 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat
I disagree with the concept of it being room for elongation.

In that case people - and land mammals - with a non-mutilated penis should still have a foreskin when their penis is in erection, shouldn't they? However, they do not for in erection the foreskin becomes part of the skin of the shaft of the penis. Your thesis thus is contradicted by observable fact. I trust that you will agree with this conclusion, as you seem to be a rational man.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat
Consider the sensitivity of the penises head! Nature would have created a cover for it, to protect it. Few women have a clitoris that protrudes all the time.

This is a good argument. However, eyes and lips and fingertips and sometimes nipples also are extremely sensitive and vulnerable, yet they are not protected by folds of skin. Admittedly, skin has a protective function. It protects against dehydration and against heat loss and against infection. When subjected to excessive abrasion it will develop a callosity, a hardenend and thickened part of skin. Since the foreskin lacks such a callosity, it may be assumed that it does not serve to protect the glans from physical harm.
The organ that is excessively protected from physical harm is the brain, which is encased completely in bone. The foreskin is skin, though, not bone.
 
As for protecting the sensitivity of the glans, you may have a point. Removing the foreskin then would be stupid, wouldn't it be?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat
The comment of foreskin enhancing evolution is ridiculous.


According to the Law of Murphy then, it must be correct. People used to say that the concept of Earth being spherical was ridiculous, because if it was, then people on the nether side of the Earth would fall off. Lots of theories have been called ridiculous that eventually were accepted as true - the movement of continents hypothesis by Alfred Wegener for example.
I expect that upon reconsideration that you will agree that your antithesis is not an argument, but an opinion.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat
We have naturally lost many things during evolution, that in some circumstances could be useful, but nature itself found to be not worth the effort to continue. Maybe you could have a doctor surgically reinstall what used to be of your appendix, that nature so brutally robbed you of.

This idea is caused by a misconception about the way natural selection works. Anything that evolution has no use for is lost relatively faster than lightning strikes. If nearly everbody and every mammalian species has an innate organ or a piece of an organ, though, you may bet that it is extremely useful to that organism. The appendix, for example, is a refuge for useful bacteria and is surrounded my tiny immunologically active organs. Luckily the human body has some inbuild (or is it inbuilt?) redundancy. I expect, though, that it is safer to remove a redundant finger than a redundant appendix.
Thus evolution theory proclaims that the foreskin is an extremely useful organ.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

And I am curious if you have ever used any of the benifits of medical science? Isn't it more natural for you to die of gangrene from a minor cut? Do you wear glasses? Shouldn't you just die due to accident of poor sight? Etc.....

Unfortunately, yes. In my - in this case very subjective - opinion, the best physician is a dead physician.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

The foreskin is most obviously a protective covering.

Yes, obviously. Obviously the Earth is flat. Obviously the Moon consists of Swiss cheese. That some things are obvious,  does not make them true. Recall this variant of the Law of Murphy: Anything that a human deems obvious, is obviously false.

(in reply to Kedikat)
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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:15:29 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:


What I do try to stress and will discuss against, is the myth used to make circumcision 'acceptable' - and using emotional subjects such as penile cancer and HIV or any health issue - as a means of making it all ok.  It is not.


But I have not found a single post that used that as a justification.. so who are you arguing against?

Then I suggest you go back and read.  And as an emotional an issue this is - personal attacks on members isn;t the way to go.  I have stated fact, I have shown written information from the same documents as yourself that counter argue your claims because you misquoted out of context.  I am a staunch supporter of non CM - I do not deny that.  I do not have any vested interests.  I am not getting into a moral or religious/spiritual debate.  But to do something, just because that is what your parent did, or on false information, such as illness, cleanliness and uselessness is unethical reasoning.
 
Why not discuss this like rational adults?  My aim isn't to insult you or attack you but to offer you another view with written documentation.  I would appriciate you try the same - that isn't a order - just a simple request for calm.  If this was FGM, people would, as Chain has stated, be all over this thread.  FGM is a terrible medical proceedure.  Females are speaking out more about it.  Male circumcision is now coming to the forefront more recently.  Before more recent times, FGM was not mentioned due to cultural reasons and embaressment.  Male circumcision is no different.  Men simply do not convey their fears and concerns as well as women, but in the coming years, you will see an increase as culture evolves.
 
Peace and Rapture


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 6/14/2006 5:19:34 AM >


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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:17:48 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

The BMA has no offical policy.  However, I will repeat again.  They do hold that any circumcision performed on non medical reasons is unethical.



Reference please.

Please reference my previous post to you a couple of pages back.


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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:23:04 AM   
Brosco


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quote:

Why not discuss this like rational adults?

 
What an excellent idea!
 
maybe a few others will join the band waggon, in the meantime, people like meataxe owe an apology to you and me.. to me for being a liar - to you, for misrepresenting your cause.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:24:33 AM   
Brosco


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

The BMA has no offical policy.  However, I will repeat again.  They do hold that any circumcision performed on non medical reasons is unethical.



Reference please.


and still waiting for that reference

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:25:30 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


The fact is there is NO evidence of benefits from circumcision and THERE IS evidence of a negative impact of circumcision. However much you bait me you can't change that simple fact.


and you cannot change the simple fact of your wild statements which you claimed were supported by ALL medical associations.  The one you quoted - you were WRONG!!!  and for stating ALL  you have yet to reference ONE!!! 

Until you apologise and admit you were WRONG - you have no credibility


You really are beginning to look like a desperate man.

The only reason circumcision isn't outlawed in Europe is because of religious and cultural sensitivities. I have pointed out that it is a widely held legal view that if someone took a case to the European Court citing cicumcision as an abuse of human rights they would win. I have pointed out that the BMA are in principle against none medical circumcision. All EU countries are subject to the European Conention of Human Rights.

Tell me what languages you can speak and I'll find any reference on the internet for you regarding other European countries policies.

(in reply to Brosco)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:29:24 AM   
Rule


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How do I block someone with a mutilated penis on this side? (Not because of the mutilated penis, but because another lack in said someone drives me to desperation.)

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/14/2006 5:35:12 AM >

(in reply to Brosco)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:33:42 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

I always wonder why in the US, male circumcision has been the norm. I thought it was for health and cleanliness in ancient times - where bathing was not always practical. Like the Jewish kosher requirements on this and food and health.

What if female circumcision was widely practiced in this country; how would we react? Would early feminists have protested? Abolish it as brutality?

As a person who is more spiritual than religous ( in any dogmatic sense) - why would God, nature put it there in the first place if there was no use? 
Like protection from the elements and abrasion?

As a woman who loves men; i have no personal preference.
But, if I had a baby boy, I'd think long and deep ( oops Freudian slip!) on  it!







I think the supposed reason is the ease in cleanliness.  Though there may be other accounts---religious ones----that started the tradition.

I agree with your point, if it wasnt meant to be there, why are men born with it?  I think as a society, we are very much immune to the practice of circumcision.  But in thought, it really does seem quite barbaric. 

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:34:28 AM   
Brosco


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Just about every medical association in western Europe would disagree with you and there is a concensus that it is mutilation. The British Medical Assoc and other national medical associations all say the increased risk of deseases are a nonsense and without foundation. All associations are calling for circumcision to be banned on health grounds. Governments haven't because of sensitivities to religious and cultural groups which really is quite disgusting when they ban female circumcision (rightfully) irregardless of cultural sensitivities.


Not desperate meataxe ...   just reminding you of your own words.  Until you put up - just shut up!

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:36:24 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

Why not discuss this like rational adults?

 
What an excellent idea!
 
maybe a few others will join the band waggon, in the meantime, people like meataxe owe an apology to you and me.. to me for being a liar - to you, for misrepresenting your cause.
 
I do not require an apology from anyone Brosco as fact speaks for itself.
If you look back onto page 2 of this thread, (I believe) You will find my quote from the BMA official documentation.
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:39:21 AM   
mistoferin


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Wow...a guy posts a very simple question about sensitivity and gets a 5 page lecture on the moralilty and ethics of circumcision.......interesting.

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~erin~

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:40:24 AM   
Brosco


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quote:

I agree with your point, if it wasnt meant to be there, why are men born with it?


Consider evolution...  early man swinging thru the trees or chasing food thru the bushes - uuummm  sensitive areas needed a protective cover.   Very simple really.  If you consider our less developed relatives, they have an even stronger shield.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:42:45 AM   
Brosco


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

Why not discuss this like rational adults?

 
What an excellent idea!
 
maybe a few others will join the band waggon, in the meantime, people like meataxe owe an apology to you and me.. to me for being a liar - to you, for misrepresenting your cause.
 
I do not require an apology from anyone Brosco as fact speaks for itself.
If you look back onto page 2 of this thread, (I believe) You will find my quote from the BMA official documentation.
 
Peace and Rapture



I looked...  cant find a thing to substanciate your premise

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:45:49 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

I think the supposed reason is the ease in cleanliness.  Though there may be other accounts---religious ones----that started the tradition.

This isn't aimed at you marie - I am just stating again/repeating myself - (cause I am an attention whore)
 
There is no substantiated evidence that cirmumcision is ethical for cleanliness reasons.
Only 15% of the worlds population are circumcised.  The majority being in Religious countries(Jewish and Islam), Africa and USA.  In Africa, this is mostly a non religious practise and majority from FGM, or stems from HIV medical unethical intervention (which is proving itself wrong by the shear increase of HIV in Africa), although there is of course, a percentage that is spiritual basis.


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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:45:56 AM   
Brosco


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Wow...a guy posts a very simple question about sensitivity and gets a 5 page lecture on the moralilty and ethics of circumcision.......interesting.


yep... my sub and i have laffed about this all day...  but sorry.. i cant resist the debate so i contribute.  sure it should have been ...   circumcised 60% unC 30% 10% dont care   ---  or what ever

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:47:30 AM   
darkinshadows


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(You cannot find the statement I produced or you cannot find the document?
Well, as I said... that statement comes from the BMA documantation.  It is there.


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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 5:48:29 AM   
LiliesDoGrow


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<fast reply>

If the foreskin of a penis was meant to be detached, it would shrivel and fall off naturally soon after birth like the remnant of the umbilical cord.

I chose not to have my two sons circumsized because I felt it was their decision to make as adults whether or not they wanted foreskins. I couldn't fathom causing my babies unnecessary pain as infants. After circumcision the baby boy is in agony for weeks every time he urinates.

It's such a personal decision and parents who have made the decision to circumsize should not be made to feel guilty over something that is so prevelant and accepted in the United States. Many parents who chose circumcision simply don't wish for their boys to feel differently from other boys.

I'm glad to see the mindset of automatic circumcision changing in this country.

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