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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 6:56:25 PM

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quote:

I am interested - those who have mutilated (and that is not ment as an offense but as an appropriate word.) yet are practitioners of BDSM. How do you justify the non consent issue with your decision?

The same way I can justify the school chosen, the clothes they wore, the choices I made when given medical options (I allowed my 3 day old son to be pulled off life-support), etc.

Brosco

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 6:59:47 PM

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 7:17:26 PM

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Chaingang, Brightspot and dark, I don't consider what I did (having my son circumcised) as gravely wrong. I live quite nicely with that decision. His father was Jewish and there was never any question at all that he would be circumcised. He's fine. He's not traumatized...he doesn't feel that I mutilated (and dark, you may think that's an appropriate word, I don't happen to agree) him and I sleep quite well at night, thanks.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 7:24:09 PM

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as someone who works in the Health Profession in Australia, i can make some comments, knowing i speak from experience and with some knowledge. i DO NOT however, proclaim to be an expert!

i can say for a fact, where i have worked in the last 8 years (at least), there has been a growing decline in the elective circumcisions done on newborn male infants soon after birth, as once was the practice. Parents are now discouraged to have the procedure done, as once was, in the hospital maternity ward before going home. That is not to say, they are no longer done. What is the norm now, for those wishing it, is to seek out a Doctor who is both capable and willing to do this procedure. Some will still do this for asthetic or religious reasons. More recently though, the practice is for a lot of hospitals to not allow circumcisions to be done, for these reasons but for medical reasons only. Of course, as with everything, there are loop holes in the system.

Medical reasons for circumcision DO exisit and i know this for a FACT too.

As a trainee nurse in the late 1980's, i held a baby boy down, on the maternity ward, while the Doctor performed the said circumcision, at the parents request, (not for medical reasons), but in those days as was often done. Needless to say, the pain the baby felt and the trauma to both the baby and myself was very real. Although nowadays, this is not the normal practice (thank God), it is now done in theatres under anaesthetic, but there is still very much after pain and recovery time.

However... this incident had such an effect on me, where once i thought without a doubt, if i had boys, they would be circumcised for religious reasons, my thoughts changed dramatically.

As things happen... i happen to have 2 beautiful boys, neither of whom were circumcised at birth. However... my youngest had to see the surgeon just yesterday, to assess having a circumcision FOR MEDICAL REASONS, a tight foreskin which does not allow the urine to escape freely, but rather builds up around the base of the penis and has caused infection and bleeding. Needless to say, he will have this procedure done, in hospital under a general anaestheic by a qualified surgeon.... because he HAS TO!

As a side note... the boys father was uncircumcised and practices good personal hygeine, and when we were together as a couple, i never had a problem with him being uncircumcised. i have also been with circumcised men, and to me there is no difference... as long as BOTH (circ'd or not!) have good personal hygiene practices!

respectfully,
tali

< Message edited by talibahh -- 6/13/2006 7:37:34 PM >

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 9:22:58 PM

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talibahh:

I can't disagree with a medically sound reason for circumcision - you have to do what you have to do. No problem there.

What I oppose is sex organ mutilation pursued by anyone but the individual in question himself or herself, and esp for any non-medical reasons. Even if a religious reason is intended, why not wait for the child to come of age to make their own decision? But even if a ritual circumcision is chosen, a jewish moile doesn't have to do anything more than make a ritual mark - he doesn't have to remove the whole fucking foreskin. The truth is no one actually knows what the precise mark of the covenant actually is - the point is to perform the ritual to establish the covenant. He could make a pinprick on the foreskin and it would be enough. It's only a ritual sign.

Someday this practice will be banned for little boys as it is now for little girls. Ritual circumcision can continue in a more benign form and lose none of its meaning.

The mutilation of anyone's sex organ is simply wrong and barbaric.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 9:28:17 PM

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Consider this story:

"US may ban genital mutilation parents"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2290343.stm

...

Because mutilating a little girl's genitals is wrong, yes? Now just how innocent are some of you people that have mutilated your little boys? We're not even talking about a potential human life as with abortion, we are talking about little kids that are actually alive in the world and running up and down in it.

...

"Support Grows for Ban on Male Circumcision; Proposals to Regulate Male Circumcision Now Circulating in Congress, State Legislatures"
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=60594

...

"A Proposed Bill to Ban Male Circumcision:
The Clash of Gender, Religion, and the Protection of Children"
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20050406.html

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 6/13/2006 9:30:00 PM >

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 10:27:45 PM

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I had a circumcision when I was a kid and they threw the biggest part of my penis away apparently.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 10:31:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I am circumcised, and personally I am completely satisfied with my degree of sensitivity.....it feels damn good, thank you very much

same here, circ power! I was circumsized when I was 8 (long story), it hurt like hell. I dont mind it though cuz I like to be as clean as possible and it gives me some psychological comfort.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 11:32:34 PM

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quote:

Male children are raised all over the world with their foreskins intact. It really isn't a big deal.

Justify it to yourself any way you please. What you did was gravely wrong and I think you know it.

And male children are raised all over with circumcisions. I am not sure of your point. I don't believe I stated or implied that opting out of circumcision was a big deal or negative in any way.

Actually I don't feel that opting for an elective medical procedure for my children, based on research and the beliefs of myself or their father, was gravely wrong or even a teeny bit wrong. I am not sure why you want to project that on me.

quote:

I am interested - those who have mutilated (and that is not ment as an offense but as an appropriate word.) yet are practitioners of BDSM. How do you justify the non consent issue with your decision?

Mutilated has negative connotations, similarly to using murder to describe abortion. I am sceptical that you choose the word for appropriateness or precision. I am not sure what practicing bdsm has to do with the discussion. Are those involved in wiitwd more or less capable of making parenting choices? Are you assuming bdsm types held to loftier standards than the general population when it comes to any issue related to consent?

I make choices for my children every day that are nonconsentual. I choose to administer immunizations, when to stop breastfeeding, what type of food they eat. I decide how aggressively to pursue testing and services for speech delays, if I want an elective surgery relating to hearing loss, if they will be exposed to secondhand smoke.

I choose methods of discipline that might include spanking, to send them to public school, to not send them to church, if it is okay for them to sleep in my bed, what type of media exposure is appropriate, to explain what the word gay means and that it is not a bad thing, to discusss alcoholiosm and drug abuse and its impacts, and even how much to share about domestic violence. They are 6 and 8 and I predict a lot more nonconsentual decisions over the next decade.

In my opinion some of these choices will have a more lasting impression on their emotional and mental health than a circumcision.

As they grow older, they are allowed more authority in their own lives.

quote:

Needless to say, the pain the baby felt and the trauma to both the baby and myself was very real

That is interesting. I was present for both my boy's circumcisons and it was not a pleasant experience. However, it was brief and seemed much less traumatic for us both than some of the immunizations. They were soothed quickly and easily when the procedure was done and aftercare showed very little pain. IE: when cleaning or handling the area they did not flinch, cry, etc. This is not a justification, but just an obervation based on limited personal experience.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/13/2006 11:54:25 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
since it is a controversial subject, medical associations do not push one way or another, though their members have strong opinions of both sides.

Physicians like to earn money by mutilating or harming other people whilst telling them that it is good for them. Physicians are swindlers.
Also: anyone who merely repeats what an 'expert' mouth's at him, proves that he has no brain himself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot
There is absolutely no medical reason to circumcize a penis period.

Not quite true - In the research I have done I would temper that to say there is no compelling reason.

It requires brains to do research. You merely orientated yourself and repeat what others have told you.

There is no medical reason to mutilate a healthy penis. Often there also is no medical reason to mutilate a diseased penis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
So would it be fair to say that you also wont inflict the unnecessary torture on your children to ensure that they have perfectly alligned teeth, when there is no medical reason involved, but just do it for cosmetic reasons?

The discussion is about circumcision of the penis and the removal of its foreskin. Not about cats or dogs or teeth or whatever. Keep to the subject - if you have any brains at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
Humans are also born with appendix and tonsils that there is also no need for - they are both nonfunctioning organs that wouldn't work again even if our circumstances changed. Evolution will probably see that these disappear over thousands of years - just as will probably happen to the foreskin - it is no longer required as a protection to an early human that swung naked through the trees.

What a load of bull-shit. It is all not true. Someone may or may not have a foreskin, but he most certainly suffers from a lack of brains.

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/13/2006 11:59:24 PM >

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 1:23:15 AM

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There was a documentry on the BBC about circumcision where the BMA put its case vigorously that there are no reasons at all for males to be circumcised and were calling for a governement ban. Jewish and muslim lobbies vigorously used all the same old arguments about penile cancer and cleanliness, each put down by the BMA representative as nonsense, pointing out that 90% of British males aren't circumcised and have no higher rates of desease or cancers than the USA which has something like 90% of males circumcised. However, there are less unrinary and erectile problems which can be caused through circumcision. I have a client that was a consultant in the NHS who has also been active in the campaign. However, I will do the research and comeback.

As for the constant chirping on about cleanliness, that is fucking insulting. If a woman doesn't wash her gentitals she's going to have problems too. Washing your genitals is what people do as the norm.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 1:39:20 AM

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Done the research. The BMA doesn't have an official policy on medical grounds because evidence is equivocal and of little value one way or the other. It also has Jewish and Muslim members which for obvious reasons are in favour of circumcision.

When doctors are performing circumcision they have to consider the European Convention on Human Rights. It seems that any circumcised male who has been circumcised without his consent would have a good case that would probably succeed in the European Court of Human Rights so doctors have to be aware of this when they are considering circumcision as with any other medical procedure. The European Convention on Human Rights is enshrined in the constitutions of twenty five European countries and in British law, Britain not having a written constitution.

This web page is rather dry and legalistic, being about Law and Ethics but medical professionals are very much more aggressive in their arguments against circumcision and there is a vigorous campaign that is active.

http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/content/malecircumcision2003

The campaign

http://www.norm-uk.org/circumcision_media_resources.html?action=showitem&item=440

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/14/2006 1:42:21 AM >

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 1:44:10 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: talibahh
However... my youngest had to see the surgeon just yesterday, to assess having a circumcision FOR MEDICAL REASONS, a tight foreskin which does not allow the urine to escape freely, but rather builds up around the base of the penis and has caused infection and bleeding. Needless to say, he will have this procedure done, in hospital under a general anaestheic by a qualified surgeon.... because he HAS TO!

The foreskin will adapt to stretching, becoming larger. So if this foreskin is repeatedly stretched for half an hour three times daily, the problem should remedy itself within a couple of weeks.
Simply instruct the boy to keep stretching the foreskin whenever he has the opportunity and the problem will pass.

It is my impression that a lot of people think that circumcision is necessary because they have never learned to handle such little problems themselves, having no family history of being not circumcised.

Alternatively, an incision might be made lengthwise.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 1:45:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
since it is a controversial subject, medical associations do not push one way or another, though their members have strong opinions of both sides.

Physicians like to earn money by mutilating or harming other people whilst telling them that it is good for them. Physicians are swindlers.
Also: anyone who merely repeats what an 'expert' mouth's at him, proves that he has no brain himself.

But quoting an anon nick from a bdsm forum would give me more credibility????

quote:

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot
There is absolutely no medical reason to circumcize a penis period.

Not quite true - In the research I have done I would temper that to say there is no compelling reason.

It requires brains to do research. You merely orientated yourself and repeat what others have told you.

There is no medical reason to mutilate a healthy penis. Often there also is no medical reason to mutilate a diseased penis.

Stop your stupid game of semantics. There are opposing views in the medical profession about circumcision. You clearly have no knowledge other than personal prejudice.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
So would it be fair to say that you also wont inflict the unnecessary torture on your children to ensure that they have perfectly alligned teeth, when there is no medical reason involved, but just do it for cosmetic reasons?

The discussion is about circumcision of the penis and the removal of its foreskin. Not about cats or dogs or teeth or whatever. Keep to the subject - if you have any brains at all.

I apologise that your brain is unable to understand an analogy - did you get someone to type for you here?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
Humans are also born with appendix and tonsils that there is also no need for - they are both nonfunctioning organs that wouldn't work again even if our circumstances changed. Evolution will probably see that these disappear over thousands of years - just as will probably happen to the foreskin - it is no longer required as a protection to an early human that swung naked through the trees.

What a load of bull-shit. It is all not true. Someone may or may not have a foreskin, but he most certainly suffers from a lack of brains.

Try sticking to attacking the opinion instead of the person. sheeez.. with personal attacks you lose before you even get read.

Brosco

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 1:56:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Done the research. The BMA doesn't have an official policy on medical grounds because evidence is equivocal and of little value one way or the other.

NO meataxe, we did the research and showed that your wide generalisations were WRONG!!!! Get that? Wrong!!!! Can I repeat again - Wrong!!!!! An apology for misleading the forum would be in order!

quote:

It also has Jewish and Muslim members which for obvious reasons are in favour of circumcision.

sighs.. reasearch references please.. and a clear statement of how such a minority group would have such control of the BMA!

Your credibility has totally failed by using unsubstanciated claims.. bye.. be well.

Brosco

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 2:19:27 AM

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I'm cut. Seems to work just fine. Masturbation dry or lubed seems to make no difference to sensitivity for sex.
I can't say how living comfort and ease is compared to noncut. But I sort of think it might be more comfortable regarding heat and moisture in the region. Ease of cleaning and some other things.
On a visual basis. I think it has more immediate visible character than one where much is inside the turtleneck. But it does lack that suspense of opening the package. Sort of one last bit of the strip show.

I don't think that a properly done circumcision removes much in physical sensation for a male. Female circumcision likely does cause more loss of sensations. Especially the ones intended to do just that. And the female version likely removes more that may still be usefull as health protection.

Few of us males run down our prey through the bushes nude anymore. So the foreskin is pretty redundant. ( outdoor D/s play withstanding )

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 2:26:58 AM

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I think you will notice and came back and corrected myself.

However, I stand by the fact that circumcision is an unnecessary mutilation of the male genitals and there is no evidence that circumcision is necessary and that doctors performing circumcision leave themselves open to prosecution under the European Convention of Human Rights. The fact that there hasn't been a case I would assume is that most people in Europe who are circumcised are circumcised because of medical reasons or cultural reasons and that would mean prosecuting their parents. Something most people would be reluctant to do.

The BMA is not a government agency, it is a professional body and is made up of its membership so a minority does have influence.

As for people who are pro circumcision, THEY are the ones that use generalisations and misinformation as a justification for circumcision. Since they are the ones advocating body modification, they should be the ones producing the evidence for it and there is NONE!

If anyone is on the wrong side of this argument it is YOU!

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 2:37:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think you will notice and came back and corrected myself.

No - after others and myself gave references to prove you were wrong, you then claimed you did research and found you were wrong - an apology is in order for your previous statements of fact that were completely wrong and misled the forum on the debate. Until then - all statements by you have no credibility

Brosco

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 2:38:53 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
Try sticking to attacking the opinion instead of the person. sheeez.. with personal attacks you lose before you even get read.

You are correct. I did wonder whether I should ask a moderator to remove my post. Perhaps I should have. I apologize for offending you. That does not validate anything you said in your earlier post, though. Everything that you said in that post was and still is either wrong or uncalled for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat
Few of us males run down our prey through the bushes nude anymore. So the foreskin is pretty redundant. ( outdoor D/s play withstanding )

That is not the primary purpose of the foreskin. When changing from a dormant state to an erect state the penis elongates. The primary function of the foreskin is to enable that elongation by supplying the extra 'inches' of skin. Nearly all or all male land mammals have a foreskin for that reason. It is an evolutionary success story.

In humans as a derived benefit the foreskin also enables an enhanced evolutionary rate of superior humans. Populations that mutilate penises generally are barbarian, backwards populations.

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/14/2006 2:53:09 AM >

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 2:44:15 AM

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quote:

Everything that you said in that post was and still is either wrong or uncalled for.

Is that an opinion or a fact?

Brosco

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