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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 2:56:08 AM

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Talk about attacking people Brosco I think you have gone way overboard in that sense.

You must be missing your hood because you seem mad as hell!

Tsk, Tsk, how could your mother do such a thing? To an unknowing innocent infant only a day or two in the world?!
I think you deserved and should have had the right to decide if you wanted your most prized body part to remain intact or not, not brutally assaulted when you were totally defenseless. It's too bad you aren't more in touch with with how violating and senselessly cruel that was.

Maybe it does instill deep psychological damage? I wonder after reading your last couple post's. Could it be a sign?

*Brightspot

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 2:57:12 AM

Rule

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It is a fact. I realize that you can not distinguish between the two, but I can. Please trust me.

(in reply to Brosco)

RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 3:19:26 AM

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Traditionally many believed that the foreskin was sexually sensitive [10][11] and this belief has been documented by opponents of circumcision [12] [13] [14]. Some more recent researchers have also suggested that the foreskin may be sexually responsive [15] [16] [17] [18]. Opponents of circumcision have cited these studies, which report on the sensitivity or innervation of the foreskin, claiming a sexual role based upon the presence of nerve-endings in the foreskin sensitive to light touch, stroking and fluttering sensations. However, these studies have not been followed up.

Circumcision removes the ridged band at the end of the foreskin [19]. John R. Taylor, a pathologist and a critic of circumcision, [20] observed that the ridged band had more Meissner's corpuscles - a kind of nerve ending that is concentrated in areas of greatest sensitivity [21] - than the areas of the foreskin with smooth mucus membranes. Taylor postulated that the ridged band is sexually sensitive and plays a role in normal sexual function. He also suggested that the gliding action, possible only when there was enough loose skin on the shaft of the penis, serves to stimulate the ridged band through contact with the corona of the glans penis during vaginal intercourse.[22] This gliding action was also described by Lakshmanan, (1980) [23]. However, Taylor's claim about the sexual sensitivity of the ridged band has not been followed up by other researchers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_effects_of_circumcision

[Comment: All I would argue is that even IF there is a chance you are reducing the possible future pleasure of a human being in your care, it seems ill advised to pursue a course of action like circumcision because there is a very good chance of doing just that. If the medical reasons for circumcision are equivocal at best, then all you are left with is religious reasons. Personally I cannot accept such religious reasoning unless a person makes such a decision for him or herself. That people have this butchery performed on their own children just boggles my mind.]

...

This page should be read in whole, tons of interesting things in there - but I'll pick out this bit:

The major medical societies in Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand do not support routine non-therapeutic infant circumcision. Major medical organizations in the United States state that parents should decide what is in their child's best interests, explicitly not recommending the procedure for medical reasons. Neonatal circumcision remains the most common pediatric operation carried out in the U.S. today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

...

So mutilate away. What do you care? No one will apparently stop you. But it is mutilation.

mu·ti·late. verb, transitive
mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates

1.To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2.To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See synonyms at batter1.
3.To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

[Latin mutilare, mutilat-, from mutilus, maimed.]

Take a look at Michaelaneglo's statue of David and tell me it's not mutilation.

I found these pages useful also:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Works.html
http://www.circumstitions.com/Notjustaflap.html
http://www.circumstitions.com/reasonsnotto.html
http://www.circumstitions.com/Functions.html
http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html
http://www.circumstitions.com/One-liners.html

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 3:22:00 AM

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ROFLMAO - yeppers I have all the signs.. penis envy.. male hatred .. Domineering (ooohh that an ok sign here- scratch that) ... masturbate too much because of lack of sensitivity (I blame my mother for that) - ashamed to be seen in public because of my mutilation ... currently awaiting a huge settlement because of my mutilation - man - the truamas I have .. i have no idea how I cope... It was disgusting that my parents interfered with my life when I was so young and made decisions on my behalf - they should have waited and let me shit all over the floor before the put me in diapers.

shhheeezz.. i hate em

Brosco

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 3:25:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

It is a fact. I realize that you can not distinguish between the two, but I can. Please trust me.

Why would i trust you? you have no appreciation of another's opinion.. why should i have any faith in yours?

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 3:30:29 AM

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Obviously, this is a highly charged subject. You don't understand people who do it for religious reasons...ok, I can accept that, but that's exactly why my son was circumcised. You don't need to understand it. It just is. How about accepting it and not trying to make those of us who chose it feel like monsters? You don't want to have your sons circumcised, don't. It matters not a whit to me. But don't tell me that I mutilated my kid. Was is unnecessary for medical reasons? I guess, but it was a necessary thing for us.

< Message edited by bandit25 -- 6/14/2006 3:31:11 AM >

(in reply to Chaingang)

RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 3:42:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
Try sticking to attacking the opinion instead of the person. sheeez.. with personal attacks you lose before you even get read.

You are correct. I did wonder whether I should ask a moderator to remove my post. Perhaps I should have. I apologize for offending you. That does not validate anything you said in your earlier post, though. Everything that you said in that post was and still is either wrong or uncalled for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat
Few of us males run down our prey through the bushes nude anymore. So the foreskin is pretty redundant. ( outdoor D/s play withstanding )

That is not the primary purpose of the foreskin. When changing from a dormant state to an erect state the penis elongates. The primary function of the foreskin is to enable that elongation by supplying the extra 'inches' of skin. Nearly all or all male land mammals have a foreskin for that reason. It is an evolutionary success story.

In humans as a derived benefit the foreskin also enables an enhanced evolutionary rate of superior humans. Populations that mutilate penises generally are barbarian, backwards populations.

I disagree with the concept of it being room for elongation. Skin is stretchy. After almost 50 years, I do not have a great deal of skin folded over when flacid, nor is it stretched too tight when hard ( but I can dream ).

Consider the sensitivity of the penises head! Nature would have created a cover for it, to protect it. Few women have a clitoris that protrudes all the time.

The comment of foreskin enhancing evolution is ridiculous. We have naturally lost many things during evolution, that in some circumstances could be useful, but nature itself found to be not worth the effort to continue. Maybe you could have a doctor surgically reinstall what used to be of your appendix, that nature so brutally robbed you of.

And I am curious if you have ever used any of the benifits of medical science? Isn't it more natural for you to die of gangrene from a minor cut? Do you wear glasses? Shouldn't you just die due to accident of poor sight? Etc.....

The foreskin is most obviously a protective covering. Maybe I have evolved beyond worrying about that bit of skin? As I don't worry that I am no longer in the blissful state of being a lizard or unicellular lifeform.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:12:37 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
Why would i trust you? you have no appreciation of another's opinion.. why should i have any faith in yours?

Why does a blind man trust his seeing dog? Because the dog has a most useful ability that the blind man lacks.

Now you assert that what I said was an opinion. Before you asked whether it was an opinion or a fact. If you had already made up your mind that what I said was an opinion, then why did you ask whether it was a fact or an opinion? Not asking the superfluous question would have saved me the bother of answering it.

If a blind man has made up his mind that the sky is purple and that the sea is yellow, nothing that a man that can see tells him about the true color of sky or sea will be accepted by him. That is because to a blind man facts about seeing do not exist. To a blind man the colour of something is not a fact, but an opinion that may be changed at a whim.

Anybody who can see, knows that the blind man is deficient in that regard. The only one who does not know that he is deficient is the blind man. To him the truth that he is deficient is merely an opinion and most certainly a lie.

(in reply to Brosco)

RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:13:06 AM

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My friend was circumcised for medical reasons when he was about 27. He said the difference in sensation before and after, has been markedly noticeable. The glans no longer gets irritated by being exposed which it does if you have your foreskin pulled back and its rubbing on your clothes. He hates the loss of his foreskin because he knows what it is like to have it. Most circumcised men don't know because they were circumcised as a child.

(in reply to Kedikat)

RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:17:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

I would have to say that this argument is a weak one - and a no brainer. I would not cosmetically enhance my child.

It is not a weak argument - it was a question about trend that is growing more and more.

It is simply because you are talking of a cosmetic one vs. a medical or religious one. The two are not compatable and is a different discussion.

quote:

Again - these items would not be removed and would be unethical to do so, although there are some practitioners who do so.

quote:

It used to be standard practice to remove these organs at the first hint of a problem -but will only be done now if necessary. This newer decision was not made on moral grounds, but medical ones. The medical decisions regarding circumcision have not found compelling reasons either way.

This leaves it as a choice of morals, values and tastes - and the only way to be answerred is as a person opinion - not as an opinion that should be rammed down the throats of all others as unquestionable fact.

Brosco

It isnt a moral debate. I never mentioned morals and neither to medical councils. This is an ETHICAL one.

Huge difference.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:25:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco
Why would i trust you? you have no appreciation of another's opinion.. why should i have any faith in yours?

Why does a blind man trust his seeing dog? Because the dog has a most useful ability that the blind man lacks.

Now you assert that what I said was an opinion. Before you asked whether it was an opinion or a fact. If you had already made up your mind that what I said was an opinion, then why did you ask whether it was a fact or an opinion? Not asking the superfluous question would have saved me the bother of answering it.

If a blind man has made up his mind that the sky is purple and that the sea is yellow, nothing that a man that can see tells him about the true color of sky or sea will be accepted by him. That is because to a blind man facts about seeing do not exist. To a blind man the colour of something is not a fact, but an opinion that may be changed at a whim.

Anybody who can see, knows that the blind man is deficient in that regard. The only one who does not know that he is deficient is the blind man. To him the truth that he is deficient is merely an opinion and most certainly a lie.

uuummm was that sumthin meaningful? - sorry, lost one me.

I answerred every point you made - if you wish to debate on the answers contibue... if you wish me to quote phylosphy I can, but sheeez... we are talking about useless skin that evolution has completely removed.. for gawd sakes.

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:25:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

It isnt a moral debate. I never mentioned morals and neither to medical councils. This is an ETHICAL one.
Huge difference.

Precisely. This is an ethical debate and not a condemnation of people who are circumcised.

The fact is, the foreskin is not a useless appendage like the appendix, it has a function and just because it is on that comical male appendage, the penis, that doesn't make it a minor issue.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/14/2006 4:26:02 AM >

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:30:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25
You don't understand people who do it for religious reasons...ok, I can accept that, but that's exactly why my son was circumcised. You don't need to understand it. It just is. How about accepting it and not trying to make those of us who chose it feel like monsters? You don't want to have your sons circumcised, don't. It matters not a whit to me. But don't tell me that I mutilated my kid.

What's your claim precisely? That you chose for him to bear the mark of the covenant? What is your faith? What does it serve a child to bear a mark for an agreement he cannot understand? Is his understanding important, or is it just some mumbo jumbo that makes YOU happy without any regard for the wishes of your child?

FWIW, do you realize that traditionally Christians and catholics both reject the practice of circumcision? Jesus was supposedly the last man that had to bear the mark of the covenant. Given that, I must presume you are a member of an offshoot Christian sect, a Jew, or a Muslim.

What I would then ask you is how you know what the precise mark of the covenant is exactly. Is it important ritually or is the method of circumcision surgically described somewhere? Is age a factor? If not, maybe you can wait and let the child decide. My suggestion overall here is that the a fairly noninvasive procedure can be performed that doesn't require the actual removal of the foreskin - the ritual is maintained, the covenant secured, and the foreskin remains significantly intact. I mean, why not?

What I don't accept is that people should actually mutilate a child without his consent. If you want to perform some religious ritual and give him a little nick, go ahead. But why rob a child of what nature and hundreds of thousands of years of evolution have given him by way of a foreskin?

I just want it pointedly understood that if we were discussing doing this to a little girl everyone would literally flip out. I just can't see the difference simply because it's a little boy we are discussing instead. Genital mutilation is wrong for both boys and girls! Why does that seem like such a radical suggestion? I would think it was self-evident.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 6/14/2006 4:39:33 AM >

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:31:19 AM

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I'm too tired to argue ethics (vs) morals ... but i am a happily 'mutilated male... like my father.. and like my son (and he is now 33 and aint complaining either) - but i will resume tomorrow

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:34:27 AM

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I think if we turned this round and said that women should have their labia cut off because the labia is no more than a useless fold os flesh, we would get a completely different reaction.

(in reply to Chaingang)

RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:39:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think if we turned this round and said that women should have their labia cut off because the labia is no more than a useless fold os flesh, we would get a completely different reaction.

So this is your apology for misleading the forum with wild generalisations stated as facts? - you fail again!

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:43:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Chaingang, Brightspot and dark, I don't consider what I did (having my son circumcised) as gravely wrong. I live quite nicely with that decision. His father was Jewish and there was never any question at all that he would be circumcised. He's fine. He's not traumatized...he doesn't feel that I mutilated (and dark, you may think that's an appropriate word, I don't happen to agree) him and I sleep quite well at night, thanks.

bandit - I will certainly apologise for any discomfort you feel and if I offended you. Spiritual and religious hatred is a pet peeve of mine, and my post was in no way meant to be that. My post is based on the ethical and medical misinterpretations - it was in no way against your belief and your faith - which I respect.

The reason I use the word mutilate, is not used as a scare tactic or for effect. I have a facial piercing - I consider it mutilation. It is a word that fits very well with that which I am trying to convey. It is not ment to be an insult.

What I do try to stress and will discuss against, is the myth used to make circumcision 'acceptable' - and using emotional subjects such as penile cancer and HIV or any health issue - as a means of making it all ok. It is not. Factual evidence is sketchy and created by organisations with vested interests in said evidence. And using such gross misinterpretations is dangerous - you only have to look at what is happening in Africa to see just how dangerous such myths can be.

Peace and Rapture

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:51:32 AM

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quote:

What I do try to stress and will discuss against, is the myth used to make circumcision 'acceptable' - and using emotional subjects such as penile cancer and HIV or any health issue - as a means of making it all ok. It is not.

But I have not found a single post that used that as a justification.. so who are you arguing against?

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RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:54:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I think if we turned this round and said that women should have their labia cut off because the labia is no more than a useless fold os flesh, we would get a completely different reaction.

So this is your apology for misleading the forum with wild generalisations stated as facts? - you fail again!

The fact is there is NO evidence of benefits from circumcision and THERE IS evidence of a negative impact of circumcision. However much you bait me you can't change that simple fact.

(in reply to Brosco)

RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) - 6/14/2006 4:56:45 AM

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quote:

And male children are raised all over with circumcisions. I am not sure of your point. I don't believe I stated or implied that opting out of circumcision was a big deal or negative in any way.

Only 15% of the worlds male population are circumcised. The large majority of this percentage are for religious reasons(currently around 50-65% of the 15.). A small percentage are those based on genuine medial problems that are already present (like talibahh has had to endure for her child). The rest is based on unethical reasons.

quote:

Mutilated has negative connotations, similarly to using murder to describe abortion. I am sceptical that you choose the word for appropriateness or precision. I am not sure what practicing bdsm has to do with the discussion. Are those involved in wiitwd more or less capable of making parenting choices? Are you assuming bdsm types held to loftier standards than the general population when it comes to any issue related to consent?

I have just explain to bandit, why I choose the word mutilate. There is nothing negative about it - it is a fact. I have already stated the reason.

I do not believe that BDSM individuals hold 'loftier' standards. To me, it just raised an interesting point. Consent Vs Non Consent.

quote:

I make choices for my children every day that are nonconsentual. I choose to administer immunizations, when to stop breastfeeding, what type of food they eat. I decide how aggressively to pursue testing and services for speech delays, if I want an elective surgery relating to hearing loss, if they will be exposed to secondhand smoke.

Precisely... so do I. But these are based on medical evidence, and in some cases fact. Circumcision is not ethically supported.

quote:

I choose methods of discipline that might include spanking, to send them to public school, to not send them to church, if it is okay for them to sleep in my bed, what type of media exposure is appropriate, to explain what the word gay means and that it is not a bad thing, to discusss alcoholiosm and drug abuse and its impacts, and even how much to share about domestic violence. They are 6 and 8 and I predict a lot more nonconsentual decisions over the next decade.

Indeed. These are choices that however, can be reversed without physical mutilation. They are things that leave a lasting impression. But they are also reversable.
(I am against spanking children btw - but thats another thread entirely)

Peace and Rapture

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