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RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/18/2006 9:17:19 PM

Posts: 9383
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

I also believe that taking a collar of protection is disingenuous - I feel as LA does on that - but it's not outright lying.

Interesting.

I teach a class where we tell the women the following:

"If somebody means you harm or does not go away and leave you alone after you asked them nicely, you do NOT owe that person
the truth."

I read this thread and I guess I am a bit surprised by many of the responses. If she wants to buy a collar at Petsmart, or ask a friend to borrow a collar for the evening, and then go to the play party or the dungeon to socialize with other people. Perhaps they have no interest in establishing a dynamic with you or anybody else, what is it to those of you who think she is lying if he or she does that?

I guess some of the posts sound to me like the people are angry because this submissive would show them such callous disrespect by letting them know non-verbally that the person wearing the protection collar does not want to be approached or hit on.

Far as I am concerned, I dont know her. I dont insist that she explain her/himself to me because I am wearing the blue nametag. And if she is wearing a collar I will ask up front if she/he is allowed to talk to another Dominant.

For me it is about basic manners and courtesy. There is a reason the person is wearing the collar and it is not my place to pass judgement on whether that is appropriate or not for them to do so.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to ImpGrrl)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/18/2006 11:07:58 PM

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Joined: 6/15/2006
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The whole 'Protected' thing is more of an internet construct than anything. The bottom line, however, seems to be that she didn't want the floggings, etc., and, perhaps not understanding fully that bdsm is consentual, and no one is going to flog or spank her unless she consents to it, she sought out someone to say no for her. Some people simply don't know how to say 'no' for themselves, unfortunately, and seem to need someone else to do it for them. Is that 'wrong'? Well, in my opinion, it's unnecessary, but not wrong. It's not my place to tell someone else how to live her life. If she didn't want to have to deal with the potential of several people trying to put her in a position where she was uncomfortable, then she may have felt that was her best, or only, option. She did what she thought she needed to do in order to be able to attend without being put in an uncomfortable position. At least, that's what it seems like from my perspective.

< Message edited by KSControl -- 6/18/2006 11:13:39 PM >

(in reply to artglfr)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 7:04:32 AM

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
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Irish,

quote:

I was told it was to keep others from "attempting" to play with me.

So the hostess decided that rather than deal with people who were rude or pushy she would slap a 1/2 wide piece of leather on you and that was more effective than making a safe space?

I still do not understand how people get from "we have jerks (jerks being the operative word) who will drag/coerce/seduce people into doing things they don't want to do" but then expect those same jerks to instantly be cowed by the presence of a 1/2 peice of leather.

I am curious Irish, have you since been to parties without a collar and how did your experience vary? How many play parties have you been to?

I come at this as someone who has owned playspaces and run groups that threw parties. To me, I would rather deal with the behavior of the "jerks" and create a culture of respect rather than leave them be and create some sort of safe symbol that leaves those who don't have it unsafe.

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 7:47:15 AM

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Since Irishbynature is my best friend and I told her to look at this thread because I remembered this story when she related it to me the first time I will answer some of this for her.

Irish was attached to another dom at the time of this party. The hostess felt because of this it would be respectful of her dom for her to wear the collar. Now you may not respect this, but it wasnt your party or your guest. I do not understand why people care so much what others do? I just do not get it.

People will do what makes them comfortable. If it isnt for you, fine. If a symbol makes people feel respected, that is their choice. I do not remember irish ever going to a play party, that wasnt her point. There is no right way of doing BDSM and protocol changes based on the group. So what was true for your group isnt true of where Irish lives and the people she was associating with at this time.. that is the point. As long as no one gets hurt who cares? If a dom feels respected because of a strip of leather, why does anyone care?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CrappyDom)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 8:24:56 AM

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
If a dom feels respected because of a strip of leather, why does anyone care?

I thought we were talking about protection. The original situation was "wearing a collar in order to ward off bad mojo/feel protected"

Now the situation is "wearing a collar in order to show an expression of respect"

Completely different motivations and situations here.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 9:32:06 AM

Posts: 113
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Completely different motivations and situations here.

Perhaps not, if the 'protective' collar was given out of respect for the Dom, and not only for the protection of the sub.

i think the point here is, that the reasons behind giving a collar of protection is as varied as anything else. While the situation that the OP presented seemes a little...overboard (even though the girl may have felt truly threatened, for whatever reason), there are always going to be situations that are different, and may make more sense. Not to everyone, but to some.

And as a respectful side note, to KSControl...the protective collar isn't just an internet construct. i'm sure the idea came up prior to the internet even existing, whether or not any of us heard of it before, or agree with it. The first time it was mentioned to me, was from a Master of a friend of mine, who was older and did not have any access to the internet, nor any interest in it. So....even if it may (today) be something that happens predominantly online, it -does- happen otherwise.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 9:49:52 AM

Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Irish,

quote:

I was told it was to keep others from "attempting" to play with me.

So the hostess decided that rather than deal with people who were rude or pushy she would slap a 1/2 wide piece of leather on you and that was more effective than making a safe space?

I still do not understand how people get from "we have jerks (jerks being the operative word) who will drag/coerce/seduce people into doing things they don't want to do" but then expect those same jerks to instantly be cowed by the presence of a 1/2 peice of leather.

I am curious Irish, have you since been to parties without a collar and how did your experience vary? How many play parties have you been to?

I come at this as someone who has owned playspaces and run groups that threw parties. To me, I would rather deal with the behavior of the "jerks" and create a culture of respect rather than leave them be and create some sort of safe symbol that leaves those who don't have it unsafe.

Interesting viewpoint you Crappydom.

This was the protocol due to the fact the event would have 100 plus attending and unfortunately, some Doms ("some") have no boundaries and will engage in less than honorable behavior. I can only imagine that due to the large gathering, the Host/Hostess were going to have their hands full.

Also, I mentioned in my post that I decided not to attend this party.

I actually liked the idea of being offered. Personally, I didn't know a soul and was a bit leary and that was the motivation of those who invited me. I saw it as a kind gesture. If I had known more in the group...and gone to the event, (and felt comfortable)...I wouldn't have worn it even if it was offered.

I can stand on my own two feet when it comes to "jerks" (Smiles) Again, it was the offer and gesture that was considerate.
Respectfully,
Irish

_____________________________

What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

(in reply to CrappyDom)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 9:54:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature
Again, it was the offer and gesture that was considerate.
Respectfully,
Irish

I agree. The intention was sweet and appropriate, even if the actual suggestion itself was completely off the mark.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 10:03:54 AM

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Joined: 6/15/2006
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trippingdaisy, while I don't argue that there were *never* collars of protection, or something similar, prior to the internet, my involvement in BDSM spans nearly 30 years, well before the internet became such a prominent force in people's lives. Prior to the internet, I saw collars used for two purposes: 1) as a useful tool in a scene (the ring(s) do come in quite handy for functional purposes during bondage), and 2) a symbol of ownership. The concept that an unowned submissive needed to be 'protected' from anything or anyone was just not part of the mindset. Consentuality was taken for granted, and no one would have dreamed of forcing an unowned submissive to do anything she didn't consent to, at least in the circles in which I moved. Again, I won't argue they didn't exist, because somewhere they probably did. It is the internet, however, which has popularized the concept. Like everything else, BDSM has been changed by the internet, both positively and negatively.

(in reply to trippingdaisy)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 11:03:30 AM

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Irish,

You still haven't explained how the collar was going to protect you against people who

quote:

some Doms ("some") have no boundaries and will engage in less than honorable behavior.

I mean if you are not honorable enough to respect a fellow human being, why would you suddenly become honorable when faced with a tiny leather strap between you and your victim?

It would be like sending a naked woman into a park full of rapists with a t shirt that says COP on it and expecting it to protect them somehow. Either she is safe naked in the park or she isn't.

And Julia, we are (or at least I am) here to do exactly this, discuss things like this in depth. I am not attacking anyone, I am simply trying to ferret out clarity.

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 11:26:41 AM

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Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Irish,

You still haven't explained how the collar was going to protect you against people who
quote:

some Doms ("some") have no boundaries and will engage in less than honorable behavior.

I mean if you are not honorable enough to respect a fellow human being, why would you suddenly become honorable when faced with a tiny leather strap between you and your victim?

Well Crappydom...not all Dominants have good intentions. Not all Dominants are good Dominants, not all Dominants play nice..not all Dominants know how to gain respect,...as the same is true for submissives. However, those who are honorable would "honor" the collar.

There is no more need to validate my belief on this issue. Put a fork in this one, it's done.
Irish

_____________________________

What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller

(in reply to CrappyDom)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 11:36:41 AM

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Crappy,

I never said you attacked her.

My whole point is that definitives regarding collars are rampant here. I have read they are a figment of online (even the opening post stipulates that a dom is supposed to announce he is protecting someone). I have read several examples of them existing in real life on this single thread. Two of these examples are people I know outside of CM, one of them for about 5 or more years. Both of whom I talk to on a daily basis. It is one thing to not agree with wearing these things, it is another to denigrate people who feel the need to wear them. Or wear them for protocol reasons. The trouble of speaking in definitives is that there are usually examples that do not agree with your definitive. You may not know of instances where protection collars were worn, it does not mean they never are for different reasons.

My whole trouble with this thread is it is insulting to people. If you have social anxiety, you need a shrink, if you feel insecure for the first time in a group of people beating each other and have a friend offer you a token to help you feel more secure, you are weak. If you wear this type of collar you are a starry-eyed novice in search of aggrandizement of some sort. If you think this symbol is going to help you because you can tell someone "Hey, see this collar? Its there because I am not here to be picked up on"

edited for usage

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/19/2006 11:42:30 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CrappyDom)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 11:46:09 AM

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Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

If someone is insecure about meeting people in the lifesyle, at a lifestyle event, why not make friends with some fellow sub/slaves and go together? Or perhaps consider not going until you build up some confidence in your ability to deal with social gatherings. Putting something around your neck is not going to protect you. Only you can protect yourself. If you are talking about play parties, I've never been to one, but aren't there people assigned to watch what's going on?

spelling edit

< Message edited by KatyLied -- 6/19/2006 11:48:06 AM >

_____________________________

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- Albert Einstein

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 11:49:19 AM

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
If you wear this type of collar you are a starry-eyed novice in search of aggrandizement of some sort. If you think this symbol is going to help you because you can tell someone "Hey, see this collar? Its there because I am not here to be picked up on"

edited for usage

If people are insulted by being told they are pandering to the idea that "submissive = weak and unable to deal with life" that "submissive = unable to trust her judgement" that "protector within the scene" is inherently and irrationally flawed...then I can understand that.

If people are insulted by being told that if they DO those things, they will be seen as weak, unable to deal with life and unable to trust their own judgement and that they are following an irrational system- I can understand that.

I don't consider it insulting, I just see it as the real situation.

Being offered a token to make you feel more secure doesn't make you weak.

Accepting a token to make you feel more secure DOES show a weakness.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 11:58:01 AM

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
I've never been to one, but aren't there people assigned to watch what's going on?

Depends on the party. As well, there's no one there to watch and control people's flirting behavior. The only watchers are for the scenes going on and they are only to interfere if safewords or in actual danger situations.

We're adults here- we don't need babysitters to handle hanging out in a social environment.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 12:00:07 PM

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature
Well Crappydom...not all Dominants have good intentions. Not all Dominants are good Dominants, not all Dominants play nice..not all Dominants know how to gain respect,...as the same is true for submissives. However, those who are honorable would "honor" the collar.

The point he is making is exactly that.

The ones who are honorable don't need some collar.

And the ones who are dishonorable won't be stopped by a collar.

So, essentially, the collar is useless.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 12:09:34 PM

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

Most people I know have weaknesses, they just manifest themselves in different ways. Not all view people as weak for wanting security. I love feeling secure, and I am not inherently weak. I wouldnt go unescorted to a club, because I have no desire to deal with a bunch of men coming on to me, . I do not care if others think this is weak.

I am going to go play for the first time, I am going to wear a collar, its nice that it partially keeps the space for the two of "us", I do not desire to talk to others.,... just me I could be wrong

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 12:27:16 PM

diamonddreamlove

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In my limited experience wearing a collar given to me by my Dom at the time has not stopped anyone from trying to convince me that i should dump that Dom and go off into the sunset with them. It has however told me that the Doms doing such are not the Ones i want to be around at any point in time. As for protection i suspect all one must do is raise her sub voice and ask help from more honorable Doms and or subs. Not afraid just using common sense and plan to continue to do so. Also not criticizing if it takes a 1/2 inch strip to make one feel safe i think they should do it, however they also need to know that it will not create safety for you if Another is determined to violate SSC. There again just my thoughts lol and sometimes i am wrong for others but i am right for me.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 12:40:01 PM

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Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I wouldnt go unescorted to a club, because I have no desire to deal with a bunch of men coming on to me, . I do not care if others think this is weak.

I don't see it as weak, more efficient use of energy.

One young lady I used to go to a club in Hull with, very beautiful but no spark between us, however her looks often drew the attention of jerks who seemed to lack the ability to understand the word no.... often it would end up ruining her evening by having to forcefull tell such jerks where to get off..... till she started attending with me.

We would walk in arm in arm (I'm openly poly, so it wasn't 'cramping my style') and both seperate to mingle. If she caught the unwanted attentions of a jerk who wasn't listening to the word no, rather than spend ages and getting irritated trying to back him off, she would wander over, plonk herself on my lap and snuggle for a while..... funny, the jerks used to get the message pretty quick and leave her alone. Much more pleasent for her and rather enjoyable for me too (I might not have fancied her but she gave damn good cuddle

)

She wasn't weak, just making best use of what was available and refusing to let them spoil her night.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Protected "submissive - 6/19/2006 2:25:18 PM

Posts: 113
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KSControl
Like everything else, BDSM has been changed by the internet, both positively and negatively.

i agree wholeheartedly with this. :) Thank You very much for Your response.

Funny thing is, if i had to make a decision as to whether or not i 'agree' with protective collaring, i'd say no. i will not disrespect anyone's proclivities...if they feel alright with that sort of collar, then that's them. i, however, feel the same as You about the use of the collar. It's a utility (for bondage), but to me, it's more a symbol of ownership, and commitment.

Because of that symbol of ownership, deep down, i think i'd feel like a fraud if i were to wear a 'protective' collar. No. If i'm going to have something about my throat, it will be because Master put it there. Not because i'm afraid to say 'no'.

(in reply to KSControl)

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