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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:20:20 AM

crouchingtigress

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From: Maui
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Truthfully he is not the least bit sorry he hurt her, and continues to hurt her...if he was he would change it.

And same goes for her, she does not want this to change...or it would change...do you see where i am coming from..?

She has to take responsibility. She is letting him get away with not living up to his promises, she is not holding him accountable...you say she is submissive and maybe folks might think that submissives dont hold dominants accountable...but they do...of course they do.

It is so hard to see a friend suffer, I commend you on trying to reach out, but if either of them really wanted change they would, you can only really help them when they are taking actions to help them selves...

(in reply to lisa1978)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:25:47 AM

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quote:

Was there a gradual loss of interest or was it sudden? If sudden it might be a medical problem.

It was a gradual thing........He did see a doctor, and viagra or medical problems were not an issue. Personally, I don't think the man really loves her enough to meet her needs. This is what I have told her--harsh or not. Opinions?

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(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:32:40 AM

crouchingtigress

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From: Maui
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well the truth hurts sometimes....quiver makes a good point, as long as his life is working there is no problem, he will need something to shake himself out of this poor me complacency. he may love her...and he may even love her as much as he has ever loved anyone...but he does not appear to love her enough to do f**k all about her suffering. right?

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:35:57 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature
Personally, I don't think the man really loves her enough to meet her needs. This is what I have told her--harsh or not. Opinions?

It's not so much that he doesnt love her or care it's just that His need ARE being met. He's wrapped up in himself and is blind to what she needs. She's got to find a voice and speak up, harder yet, maker herself heard!

_____________________________

The problem with communication ... is the illusion that it has been accomplished. ~George Bernard Shaw

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:37:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature
It was a gradual thing........He did see a doctor, and viagra or medical problems were not an issue. Personally, I don't think the man really loves her enough to meet her needs. This is what I have told her--harsh or not. Opinions?

It's not about loving someone enough. Using love as a guilt measure is a really bad idea and won't help the situation.

He's happy with how things are- or at least accepting of them.

She seems happy to keep torturing herself in the situation. She's not alone. I'm guessing at least 60% of the female subs are in or have been in this exact situation. After all, it's only after being in an unfulfilled primary relationship that they turned to the internet to "discover" who they really are anyway.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:54:13 AM

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All the advise in the world wont help it seems they have talked about all the options. He doesnt want to have sex with her and he doesnt want an open marrage seems he doesnt really care what she needs if he isnt willing to work with her she should leave him im not sure why you say she cant but if she wont leave him them there isnt anything any one cant do and she should stop complaining... if you arent going to help yourself dont complain to others and expect them to be able to help you. in the end they have to work something out and you really cant do anything for them exept suport her in any desition she makes.

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 7:56:00 AM

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around and around.

It is time for someone to fish or cut bait.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 8:07:46 AM

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Okay, this is exactly the kind of situation where Dan Savage of the Seattle Stranger comes in handy.

quote:

It needs to be said that depriving a spouse of sex—or subjecting them to absolutely joyless sex in the hope that they'll stop asking—is an act of emotional violence. And this brand of emotional violence not only creates frustration, anger, and desperation, it inevitably leads to infidelity, which all too often leads to divorce, broken homes, and traumatized children.

And who gets the blame? The spouse who cheated, of course!

To all those folks out there who aren't interested in sex: Getting married—or civilly united or shacking up—is like buying a cow. You know going in that you're going to have to milk the thing. But unlike an unmilked cow, a spouse—male or female—won't just stand there in a field and suffer. A spouse is a cow with a credit card, a job, and a car. If you don't milk the cow you married, your cow has the means to go out and find someone who will. If you're fine with that, for God's sake tell your cow. If you lose interest in sex but want to stay married for the kids, friendship, or financial security, apologize to your cow and tell 'em you'll do them the courtesy of turning a blind eye if they'll do you the courtesy of being milked discreetly elsewhere.

Tell your husband what's going on and tell him why. Offer to stay with him and raise your kids together, if you can hack it. But just as he's made it clear that being with him means no sex, you need to make it clear that being with you means semi-regular cuckolding.

I love this guy!

_____________________________

"Cheeky bitch"

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 8:12:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature
The question is: What do you think his problem really is?

Gee Im gonna go out on a limb here and say that his problem REALLY is what he's always been SAYING it is. And it's not a problem except for the fact that she's not getting what she wants.

One could always say that if she's "really submissive" she'll accept what he chooses for her gracefully and be happy she can serve him in the ways he does allow for. But that's not what she wants- she wants rough hard kinky sex.

Even if it's not true, it's all she's going to get so accept it already. She's made her choice, now live it.

If he were a dominant and she his slave I would perhaps agree. He is not a dominant, and this friend is a submissive.. and even at that everyone has a right to have their needs met in this life.

_____________________________

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 8:17:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
If he were a dominant and she his slave I would perhaps agree. He is not a dominant, and this friend is a submissive.. and even at that everyone has a right to have their needs met in this life.

I know that, my statement wasn't suggesting that this is how it is- only that this is how someone could perceive it to be.

She's got a right to have her needs met- she's not taking it. She's upset that someone else isn't doing what she wants him to do. At this stage in the game, she can either accept that or leave.

She's decided she cannot leave, so she is left with one option- accept it and shut up.

Or the affair, the one she'll likely choose.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 8:17:39 AM

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It is almost like a Puritan issue. Sex life should not be that important so people feel guilty about not getting their needs met in that area when in reality our sex drive is a huge part of us.

In general assumptions it just sound like he has an abnormal low sex drive and has fomred beliefs or denials around this to justify his inactions in both the bedroom and taking action like counseling. Sounds like he is selfish and lazy and she needs to give a firm ultimatum and seek more counseling herself to build up her self esteem and to realize her life will not end if she leaves him and there are plenty of other men that will love her.

If it is like you think where you just do not think he loves her, it could be his way to try to end the marriage. I have known many people who wanted to get out of their marriage but did not want to be the "bad" person by directly initiating the divorce. So they intentionally/unintentially did crappy things physically and emotionally to their spouse to get them to dump them so they could be the "victim". Many times they left the marriage a long time ago but forgot to inform their spouse.

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It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion, we'd be truly dead.

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 8:41:13 AM

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Dear irishbynature, Ladies and Gentlemen;

There are always two sides to a story. Pity we don't have the man's point of view in the issue. However, there have been many fine posts and we all must go on many assumptions and or relate with personal experiences.

In the photographic negative analogy to which CrappyDom offered, if she got fat, some men prefer heavy women and when they loose weight then they are affected, especially if he is heavy still and or feels that he isn't married to the same woman. If she did loose weight and becomes the center of attention, it does cause a sense of insecurity and ego/pride is deminished. So, this might be worth consideration.

Another consideration, since Viagra and other sexual aids were waived off by the doctor; we still don't know if stress or other health issues are the cause. Sometimes men suffer silently with depression, dental issues to which might be the reason why the cut off, as a broken tooth might harm the woman during oral. Perhaps he has discovered he has STD. Might be diabetes. Might be heart also, as the energy drop with blocked heart arteries. It just might be that he has dropped the anchor per se, with the intent to just not give sexual pleasure due to her endless nagging and pushing it in his face.

It is my sense, that men have more difficulty in going to mental health professionals as the social stigma is that men who need mental health aren't real men. The same with a marriage counselor. The attack on manhood is often a perception rather than a reality.

Perhaps sex has been in a rut and been so entrenched in the same thing, same way for so long, that its no longer fun. Has she considered spicing things up in the bedroom?

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 8:57:20 AM

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quote:

How has she changed? Is she fatter than when she got married?

Or maybe she is thinner than when she married him? <s>

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 9:00:59 AM

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The situation reminds me of some lyrics by Louden Wainwright:

She said he came too early
But it was she who came too late

Push gave a shove and we fell out of love
And tore each other apart
Love is grand but I don't understand
Why she broke my proverbial heart

It seems to me he doesn't love her but is suffering terminal inertia unless there is kids involved and that might be a reason he doesn't want to split or maybe its money, splitting can be very expensive and if home isn't unpleasant you might want a big enough reason to go.

OK this is flippant but I always thought premature ejaculation was a problem when you got over excited, not when you lost interest in sex.

I could be talking out of the back of my neck.

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 9:02:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
OK this is flippant but I always thought premature ejaculation was a problem when you got over excited, not when you lost interest in sex.

I could be talking out of the back of my neck.

His continued perceived lack of ability to please his wife might be a big contribution to feeling depressed and avoiding trying.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 9:13:51 AM

TolerableCruelty

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Why doesn't she just try the sneak attack method ?

Sneak under the covers while he's sleeping, blow him, get him off, keep blowing him til he's hard again, get on and ride like the dickens til satisfied, etc etc.... repeat as needed, that way he doesn't have to "worry" about satisfying her.... she can do the work, satisfy herself, all he has to do is lay there... (thats what most of us do half the time anyway, right ?)

either that... or she can start buying extra batteries....

T.R.

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 9:14:10 AM

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I should stay off this thread because I don't know what it is but something doesn't add up to me. Breaking up is difficult even when you both agree it's for the best as in my case, in fact it was because we were so friendly and on such good terms it was so much harder to break up. Maybe its just having one side of the story that is bothering me.

Hmm. Horrible wallpaper and studying it while keeping up ones side of the bargain helps prolong sex.

I'm out of here, I've got nothing worthwhile to add.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 9:21:18 AM

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As an asexual, I really have to say, it takes one to know one and this man definitely seems to at least veer that way and probably doesn’t even realize it. So the rest of my post kind of assumes this might be the issue at hand. If it is something else, not much of what I say here will apply.

Agreeing to do things to "make sex better" and then backing out of doing them is a very typical reaction of an asexual, who does not realize they are an asexual. He may really want to make his wife happy, but when push comes to shove, he may be finding that there are feelings getting in the way of following through. It wouldn’t really surprise me a bit to find out that he actually opened the books a few times, browsed the pages, felt uncomfortable, and put the books away. Rinse, repeat.
I want to make her happy. I don’t want to have to do these things. Everyone else is doing it. What’s wrong with me? No one understands me. I must just be inadequate and weird. But I want to make her happy.

He might hesitate going to counseling because he fears finding out something is "wrong" with him. Or he might feel like between his wife and the counselor, they are going to encourage him to do things he doesn’t want to do. That they will confirm the societal myth that he is in some way "unhealthy" or "unstable" because of his lack of sexual activity.

What really tipped me off to this is when you said "he promised to change". This tells me he feels like there is something "wrong" with him. It’s really important that if this man suspects he might be asexual, that he find a community of like-minded people. I recommend the forum boards at AVEN www.asexuality.org There really aren’t many resources available for asexuals, and that site is one of the best for asking questions and getting answers.

If he is asexual, that is a part of him that won’t change. Asexuals don’t learn to "love sex" and "become healthy sexual beings". Most of us come to accept who we are. Through that acceptance, all the weight of "I must not be normal" begins to lift. We don’t view ourselves as unhealthy or in need of being fixed. We retire the thought of trying to learn to love sex and put away all those tons of books about how to be a better lover, how to relax during sex, how to, how to, how to, and we put away the Viagra, and we put away the hard core porn that we tried to get excited by, and we just let go of the whole misconception that "I’m not ok."

Once that happens, once we feel comfortable in our own skin, and accept ourselves for who we are, only then can we learn to move forward into issues about "Now, I know I love me. But I need to let my partners know that I love them too."

The forums at AVEN are loaded with this issue, and like any other lifestyle, people handle their relationship dips in different ways. There are options for him and her to make sure everyone’s needs are met, and those options are a LOT more varied than non-asexuals tend to assume.

Learning about asexuality is a long process, just like learning about BDSM. People entering the BDSM lifestyle, can’t take a few hours to visit a website and suddenly know all there is to know. The same is true for asexuality. It takes years to learn about all the different dynamics and options, dispel the societal myths, see the different types of relationships, try the things that work, try the things that don’t, and eventually settle down into what’s best for the people involved.

It can be an even more difficult and lengthy learning process into asexuality than it can be into BDSM. Asexuals simply lack the numbers in population, the resources, websites, books, etc… BDSM sells. Asexuality doesn’t.

I highly recommend this particular page as a good starting point:
http://www.asexuality.org/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=31
That is the AVEN FAQ page.

If asexuality is the issue at hand (which I suspect it is based on the OP), this is going to have to be a journey HE takes. His wife can’t take it for him. Though she can take it with him.
(And like I said, if it’s not an asexuality issue, my post pretty much doesn’t apply.

Edited to add:
Wow. I just finished reading the rest of the replies here and I really have to say,
some of you folks can really be rather judgmental and cruel without even knowing what you might be judging.
Judgments based on education is great.
But judgment based in ignorance… ouch.

< Message edited by Proprietrix -- 6/20/2006 9:32:47 AM >

_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 9:24:07 AM

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As human beings most of us are not hardwired for celibacy. Our sexual needs are just that....needs...not wants. Finding the cause and motivations behind a problem are things that you do when the problem is new...two weeks without sex....two months without sex. After five years the catalyst matters much less than the fact that the situation you are in is one where your needs have been unmet for five years. The way I see it she has only two choices.....she can either accept that it IS the way it IS....or she can choose to not accept it and take the necessary steps to get her needs met. I can not say what steps would be right for her. For me personally, I would tell him that what he is asking of her is unnatural and that she has come to the point where she must make a decision.....and that decision for me would be to leave the situation unless there were radical changes.

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~erin~

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(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 9:50:37 AM

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I'm very glad, Proprietrix, that you brought up asexuality.

It is common and yet widely ignore.

Tom, my husband, is probaly asexual. Sex is just not that interesting for him. He'll get turned, he loves to cuddle, and he has his fetishes but the actual sexual acts just aren't that exciting for him and have never been. He was safe for this survivor of childhood abuse because he'd never pressure me into sexual contact I didn't want.

However, as I dealt with my past, my innate sexuality was allowed to bloom and I'm not asexual -- pretty far from it. Luckily I think we may have known this when we did not marry monogamousy nor ever had the idea we should be monogamous.

With all the messages that we get and give about men being all about sex, image how difficult it must be to be male and asexual. If the doctors have checked him out, it could just be that he is asexual.

At that point I suggest to the OP's friend that she have a long discussion about him and opening up their marriage or trying polyamorary. If he really loves her and he cannot give her what she needs sexually, why would he have a problem with it?

If he has a problem with it then maybe its not asexuality but an issue of control. She might even feel it is abusive if it continues. At that point therapy will help her decide what to do. Getting angry in therapy? That's a good thing, that means you are making progress. Figuring out what to do with the anger is a necessary step after that feeling.

Another thought, he might have a fetish. Not a fetish as we so casually toss the term around but a clinical fetish meaning that he can only get aroused and off when the fetish is around/used. He might be ashamed of it.

Regardless for his health he should consider orgasm in some fashion on a regular basis. Tom wasn't (I thought he was with his fetishes) and he got an infection -- doctor told him to release his sperm more often. So we make a point now to find a why to get him up and off but with his low, low, low sex drive it can be work. His health is worth it.

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(in reply to Proprietrix)

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