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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 10:00:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
If he really loves her and he cannot give her what she needs sexually, why would he have a problem with it?

I take big issue with that idea.

Being true to we are isn't about LOVE.

We could apply that to any statement- "If he loved you enough, he'd have a baby with you" "If he loved you enough, he'd stop drinking" "If he loved you enough..."

It's not about love. People are who they are. If someone came to me and said they wanted to be with me but they needed monogamy, does that mean I don't love them "enough" because I'm not monogamous or willing to be monogamous?

NO.

If I can't give them what they need AND be true to myself, then no measure of love in the world will make us happy together. I refuse to betray myself and what *I* know is right for myself.

I agree the poly or open marriage might just be the answer here- but just because he says no says NOTHING about "how much he loves her."

_____________________________

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(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 10:02:00 AM

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I feel I have (possibly, although I realize everyone's situation is different) something pertinent to add here.

I lived in a situation eerilysimilar to this woman's situation (as you describe it) for over 10 years (as I am sure many have done).

I ended up becoming so depressed I tried to take my own life - and almost succeeded. My advice here is admittedly one-sided.
If one of my friends were in this situation today I would:

1) Tell her to get out -if she is even halfway amenable to this option and it won't destroy the so-called "rest of her life" in huge ways.
Then - help her do that - in a practical sense, by:

A). Offering her a place to stay (or help her find one, or loan her money, perhaps, to find one so she can leave) - if she needs that kind of help. Help her pack, etc.

B). Offer your encouragement whenever you can in telling her that even though things might be awkward and "new" for awhile - she CAN build a new life for herself. Be there for her - to listen.

C.) IF she refuses to leave him, well, it's her choice. Even then, you can be kind.

**I have come to the conclusion that kindness is under-rated in situations like this.

You've been a good friend to her by being there for her so far - good for you.
If you really are sick of listening to her about all this and feel there is nothing more you can do for her, tell her that in as nice a way as possible, and still be there for her as a freind - if she is a good friend in other ways. Just don't talk about that topic with her, if it bugs you. If you make the topic "off-limits" and she has an ounce of maturity, she'll probably understand that. You can still have fun and be friends doing other things together; lunch, shopping, movies - whatever.
Believe me, she probably needs good friends like you.

I logged off CM in April because my husband had just died in February, and I became "active" as a member too early. I was being deluged with mail from well-meaning Doms, and I was not ready to attempt even a "friend-ship" type of relationship yet. I was (still am) emotionally recovering from losing my husband and mourning, yes, that he's dead, but also mourning the 10 years of potential happiness I threw away staying in a marriage that really gave me a LOT less than I deserved. Life is too short to short-circuit one's own welfare with such nonsense (least I think so).

I'll be back here on the message boards in the Fall, when I feel better.
But - I do periodically log on, and "lurk", to see what's happening.

When I read this letter - I had to reply. Good luck and kudos to you for being nice and such a good friend. It's an important thing, I think.
- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/20/2006 10:26:22 AM >

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 10:12:46 AM

DragonslairHouse

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Have you thought that perhaps the sexlessness comes from the man's inability to serve up? That maybe he can't get it up to serve the ladies? Health problems do exist I have that problem in my relationship with my husband we love each other dearly and do have oral sex but any other form is pretty much sucked because mr. dicky doesn't work and we can't afford to go to the physican right now and find out why. Don't judge a person because you can't get any nookie. there might actually be something wrong. Does it make for problems between us it could but i don't allow it too i'm bigger than that.

Ldy LinOwen

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 10:17:13 AM

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I think she needs to sit down and talk with him and the heck with begging. She needs to state very clearly what is wrong in this for her, and what she considers her options to be. He needs to state his side and what options he feels he can live with.

They may not be the same. I stayed in a marriage that didn't fulfill me for way too long. One person insisting that another live in a way they can't accept is wrong. I doubt she will sway him so divorce is probably the only option she does have. She needs to remember that kids (like it or not) see the parents marriage and knowing no other so intimately tend to pattern their own after that. IE wife does this, husband does that. Does she really want her kids to grow up seeing that mom is to be unhappy in a marriage and just put up with it?

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 10:20:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
If he really loves her and he cannot give her what she needs sexually, why would he have a problem with it?

I take big issue with that idea.

Being true to we are isn't about LOVE.

We could apply that to any statement- "If he loved you enough, he'd have a baby with you" "If he loved you enough, he'd stop drinking" "If he loved you enough..."

It's not about love. People are who they are. If someone came to me and said they wanted to be with me but they needed monogamy, does that mean I don't love them "enough" because I'm not monogamous or willing to be monogamous?

NO.

If I can't give them what they need AND be true to myself, then no measure of love in the world will make us happy together. I refuse to betray myself and what *I* know is right for myself.

I agree the poly or open marriage might just be the answer here- but just because he says no says NOTHING about "how much he loves her."

For me, loving someone is wanting that person to be the best they can be and if you can't help them be that, you encourage them to seek out help elsewhere.

Denying someone their human right to be the best they can be and have their needs fulfilled is not love in my opinion.

He can be himself all he wants and not deny her what she needs by opening things up or letting her go. The facts from the OP is that he won't even go to therapy to talk about suggesting that he does not care about her (let alone love her) but only about himself.

Holding onto someone because you don't agree in being open or poly or allowing for a divorce in an extreme case is not love, it is being focused on controlling someone.

One can express love via control (this Ds or BDSM) but control does not equal love.

A person can say the words "I love you" until they are blue in the face and your ears fall off from hearing it but it is not the same as loving someone. Loving someone is the total package, the recognition of the total person. We won't match everyone in everyway. There's nothing wrong with realizing you don't match in all ways and moving on or finding other venues.

My my definition, loving someone would be encouraging them to find what they need.

The OP made it sound like he doesn't care -- how is that love?

Saying "I love you" can be nothing but BS and a way to manipulate someone.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 6/20/2006 10:27:29 AM >

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 10:26:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
My my definition, loving someone would be encouraging them to find what they need.

The OP made it sound like he doesn't care -- how is that love?

My definition of love is "giving someone the freedom to be who they are, even if that's not with me."

I completely agree that if you love someone, you will give them the full freedom to explore themselves.

But who they explore MIGHT be someone I can't be in a relationship with. That doesn't mean I stop loving them, it means we're not right for eachother in a relationship.

If you've been in a vanilla marriage for 20 years and suddenly the wife says "I need to be a slave and you need to own me in order for me to be fulfilled" and the husband decides that won't work for him- I don't think it's because he lacks love for her. I think it's because who they became are people who cannot be fulfilled in a relationship with eachother.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 10:30:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
My my definition, loving someone would be encouraging them to find what they need.

The OP made it sound like he doesn't care -- how is that love?

My definition of love is "giving someone the freedom to be who they are, even if that's not with me."

I completely agree that if you love someone, you will give them the full freedom to explore themselves.

But who they explore MIGHT be someone I can't be in a relationship with. That doesn't mean I stop loving them, it means we're not right for eachother in a relationship.

If you've been in a vanilla marriage for 20 years and suddenly the wife says "I need to be a slave and you need to own me in order for me to be fulfilled" and the husband decides that won't work for him- I don't think it's because he lacks love for her. I think it's because who they became are people who cannot be fulfilled in a relationship with eachother.

And if he loves her, why would he then go further and deny her the right to explore this? In fact, does she love him if she demands that he fulfill her needs without regard of his own?

I think in both cases the answer is that if they love each other, they find a way to work things out so that both can get what they need.

Saying "this is the way I am and that's that but I love you" sounds like manipulation to me.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 10:38:04 AM

MistressSassy66

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From personal experience...there is an underlying reason why.

The best thing to do is try to open up the lines of communication.

If she truely cares about her man,she will do whatever needed.

She suggested counseling for him but what about for herself to help
her see a different way to deal with this.

The worst thing IMO is to nag about it and put pressure on him...this will do nothing but push him away.

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In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

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(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 10:38:19 AM

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For whatever it's worth - I do feel that my husband loved me - AS much as he could. Unfortunately, after a few years, that didn't do enough for me to stop me from trying to kill myself because his lack of attention made me so depressed. So, in a practical sense, his love didn't "work for me".

As far as the "why" he paid me not enough attention sexually - he's dead now (he died of bone cancer in February) - and I still don't know why. I wasn't: Overwieght, unattractive, a bitch, a nag, etc. I was the same person he married when he stopped having sex with me. I've got no clue - although his being asexual makes some sense to me (maybe he was "faking" liking sex the first 5 years we were married, for my sake).Who knows? I don't.

I've concluded it just doesn't matter when one is on the verge of jumping off a bridge or almost going insane trying to save something that doesn't, in reality, exist. She needs to save herself - she is, ultimatley, responsible for herself and if you can help her - I'd try to do that. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/20/2006 10:42:23 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to thetammyjo)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 10:55:48 AM

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quote:

Edited to add:
Wow. I just finished reading the rest of the replies here and I really have to say,
some of you folks can really be rather judgmental and cruel without even knowing what you might be judging.
Judgments based on education is great.
But judgment based in ignorance… ouch.

Giving others Marital advice, judging marital behavior, or trying to understand someone else's marriage isn't easy and oftentimes folks simply devolve into judgmental platitudes. As you may have noticed, meatcleaver recused himself, saying, "I'm out of here, I've got nothing worthwhile to add."

I must admit, however, that he had a point in saying, "OK this is flippant but I always thought premature ejaculation was a problem when you got over excited, not when you lost interest in sex."

(in reply to Proprietrix)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 11:06:31 AM

MsSonnetMarwood

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Someone very close to me was in a similar situation. Sexless marriage, husband who told her she was sexy and desirable but would not have sex with her. Counseling. Frustration. Depression. Blame. Anger.

Ultimately? Divorce, and the opportunity for both of them to pursue what they need to make them happy, because clearly staying together wasn't doing it.

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Deja Moo: The feeling you've heard this bull somewhere before.

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 12:03:17 PM

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I think each situation has to be viewed on it's own. Several of the possible reasons have already been mentioned, but the reason is only one half of the equation.

The other half is: what is the outcome?

You can continue as is, seek to modify the situation into something more suitable, or else change the entire situation (i.e., relationship). If you have spent a suitable time in an effort to modify your partner's behavior with no success, then perhaps a change is in order.

Not an easy thing to decide. Getting back to the "reason", if that can ever be determined, it may dictate your choice in and of itself. If no reason presents itself in a timely manner, then you must decide whether you can live with the situation or whether you must leave it.

Don't stay in Limbo forever.

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 12:04:56 PM

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Well not to be crude or rude, but ... Damnit! If she is complaining and wants change and has persuded this for years she is either really not concerned about a change or is beyond naive. Come on lady ! just what is it you want. Seems she is comming to the OP asking for advice. So hell lady.. dump his ass and move on with life! Sheesh!

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 12:23:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I must admit, however, that he had a point in saying, "OK this is flippant but I always thought premature ejaculation was a problem when you got over excited, not when you lost interest in sex."

I don't think it's really "premature ejaculation" that is being discussed in this situation. It's "hurry up and get this over with".

Big difference. The first, yes, it's excitment. The second is to get a painful/boring/unwanted event over and completed.

FHky

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 12:24:38 PM

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irish

You did not mention ages but I believe that it happens alot as the husband loses self esteme in his own eyes and slowly over time feels that it will show thru to the wife.

Being in D/s would help the problem from a bit to a whole lot, but that apparently is out of the question.

The longer the time without the more impossible for it to be fixed. He probably loves his wife and takes the time without sex as aceepted by her, and thus her options are limited which I will discuss later if you want to persue them.

CP

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 12:36:03 PM

ExistentialSteel

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It is a physical problem with him no matter what the doc said. It is hormonal with decreased sexual drive although he may still be able to have erections. He needs to see an endocrinologist who would probably give him testosterone.

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 12:53:54 PM

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My thoughts on this are:
1)She is submissive and can choose to submit to him as he is, and buy herself some toys with which to play.
2)When/if she has the will/ability, give him the ultimatum of going to see professionals (GP/physician and psychiatrist) to diagnose and treat the problem or considering a divorce.
3)I personally need to connect sexually with the man in my life or I would feel unloved/cared for at this point.   If staying in this sexless marriage is going to erode her self esteem and kill her spirit, she ought to consider saving herself.
Good luck to you and your friend,   M

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(in reply to irishbynature)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 1:03:35 PM

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This letter really got to me. I cannot emphasize enough how much a situation like this can destroy someone emotionally. Even if it appears she "refuses" to leave him. In my case, my family, my religion, and my own mis-placed sense of guilt made me stay. Then of course my husband got sick, and I felt I couldn't leave (and in hind-sight, am glad I was with him when he needed me).

I did, however, decide to have an affair - it was, if I do say so - well-deserved and an almost life-saving experience for me. Maybe that's an option. I, too, had asked my husband if he "objected" to my seeing someone else - since he wasn't going to make much effort to revive our sex life. He refused to consider that option, all the while claiming he "really didn't want a divorce". I had an affair anyway - and I seriously think it saved my sanity. I just didn't tell him about it. Oh well. If that makes me a "Scarlet woman" - so be it. Too late now to do much about it. - Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/20/2006 1:05:46 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 2:36:03 PM

crouchingtigress

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Dan Savage is a a godsend !

quote:

It needs to be said that depriving a spouse of sex—or subjecting them to absolutely joyless sex in the hope that they'll stop asking—is an act of emotional violence. And this brand of emotional violence not only creates frustration, anger, and desperation, it inevitably leads to infidelity, which all too often leads to divorce, broken homes, and traumatized children.

And who gets the blame? The spouse who cheated, of course!

To all those folks out there who aren't interested in sex: Getting married—or civilly united or shacking up—is like buying a cow. You know going in that you're going to have to milk the thing. But unlike an unmilked cow, a spouse—male or female—won't just stand there in a field and suffer. A spouse is a cow with a credit card, a job, and a car. If you don't milk the cow you married, your cow has the means to go out and find someone who will. If you're fine with that, for God's sake tell your cow. If you lose interest in sex but want to stay married for the kids, friendship, or financial security, apologize to your cow and tell 'em you'll do them the courtesy of turning a blind eye if they'll do you the courtesy of being milked discreetly elsewhere.

Tell your husband what's going on and tell him why. Offer to stay with him and raise your kids together, if you can hack it. But just as he's made it clear that being with him means no sex, you need to make it clear that being with you means semi-regular cuckolding.

"I love this guy!"... me too cpg!

She is hoping, waiting, asking, whining and pining...Hows that working for her?
Not well it seems but she is the only one who can change anything and she is not doing it....i have faith that she will though, when it becomes unbearable...i just hope she does not choose the cowards way (yes i am judging all you cheaters i do think you are cowards, YMMV). I hope she marches in there with a demand for change and a very clear determination that she will not be a victim to his pity party. Like susanO says, this stuff leads to deep depression, and one can become suicidal...

If you are reading this thread friendofthe OP, please know that some people stay in sexless marriges for 50 or more years...and then they become embitterd, jaded and lonely.

Sexual energy is the creative energy, the life force, the prana of the universe...and you are (not him) denying yourself acess to it...and you might want to look at why that is ok with you. Yes i know you are talking about it to your friend bit until you do something to change it you are permitting it.

Actions speak louder then words.

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 6/20/2006 2:56:01 PM >

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RE: Submissive in sexless marriage - 6/20/2006 2:41:23 PM

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Read through mosts of the posts here and I feel much the same as LA does.

I believe relationships change because the individuals in the relationships change. If you're together for years and you're both convinced that you're the *exact* same people you were when you met...you're either lying to yourselves or you haven't had much growth as individuals.

Relationships that last through the changes are able to do so when the changes that occur aren't so severe that they overpower the compatibility that was present from the start. When the changes are severely in contrast with what the relationship had been initially when both were happy, then we see people 'grow apart'.

That has nothing to do with their love for one another, but has everything to do with their compatibility to maintain the relationship in a way that allows them to both be happy.

Personally, if I were in this situation, I have no idea what I'd do. I don't know all the details and something seems to be missing, it may be as Proprietrix has said and the man is simply someone who has no need for sex. It's fantastic that you want to be a good friend to her and help, but there's no way to answer your biggest question which is *why* is this happening. All your friend can do now is decide how she will deal with this relationship.

(in reply to SusanofO)

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