quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix


(Fast Reply, not directed toward any particular person.)

First, I admit that I’ve done a lot of skimming instead of reading on this thread.
I have so many different comments to add. I apologize if I’m repeating, or if my train of thought comes across jumbled. And I apologize for such a LONG post.
(I probably have even more to say on the topic of asexuality, but I don’t want to hijack this thread, so I guess I’ll just stifle those comments until an appropriate thread comes along.)

First, I have to say, even the people who aren’t placing blame on (and in some instances defending) the partner who doesn’t desire sex…. are still perpetuating stigma on people with low sex drive. The chants of he should seek therapy, he should see if it’s a medical condition, he should try medication… These statements connote that 1) someone who doesn’t desire sex has something wrong with them, and 2) the overall goal should be for the person who doesn’t desire sex to reconstruct themselves into someone who does desire sex.
It shows me that we still have a long way to go before we see the lack of sex drive as "just another group of people" instead of "people there is something wrong with."

For the most part I agree with both Tammyjo (this is a relationship issue) AND with RS (this is a matter of personal responsibility). My main thought though, is that it is a complete and total waste of time, and it is ultimately damaging to all parties, to continue trying to figure out "who’s at fault".

That being said, here are my thoughts:

There’s been several threads (on various forums) lately in which partner A feels unsatisfied because partner B does not have sex with partner A as much as partner A would like. These threads seem to turn to blame-shifting. The non-sexual partner is often villanized as uncaring, unsupportive, and unloving. The more sexual partner takes on a victim mentality. It saddens me when I see people destroying their own self-image and the image of others due to blame-shifting. I see these relationships crashing to the ground, partners being kicked to the curb, resorting to lying and deception and adultery. And as bystanders, most of us realize that there really is no one at fault in the original scenario. The fault tends to develop later when there was a failure of communication. The original problem (incompatible sex drives) is rarely actually confronted because the whole situation gets so blown out of proportion that the focus becomes fault, deception, justification, self-esteem, etc…


I see blame-shifting as one of the most damaging dynamics in a relationship. It takes the focus off the problem. It justifies inappropriate behaviors. It dismisses personal responsibility. It contributes to the lack of communication. It stifles expression. It builds barriers between people. It hurts the person doing it, the person they are doing it to, and any innocent bystanders who cross the path while it’s happening.

In my relationships and my household, I have a very strict rule against blame-shifting. My son grew up hearing "No blame-shifting" and spent his fair share of time in the time-out corner for engaging in blame-shifting. My submissives are well aware that I do not tolerate blame-shifting. Some of them know this rule all too well and will even call me on it if I accidentally slip into doing it myself. I have a bad habit of misplacing my car keys and then while frantically looking for them, saying "Who took my keys." My son is quick to say "Quit blame-shifting. Your keys. Your responsibility. (And by the way, I think YOU left them on the table.)"
It’s all a matter of personal responsibility and communication.

It occurred to me, that many of the people I see in these threads about sexuality, may not even know that what they are doing is blame-shifting. They sometimes come across as only seeing black and white options. Or they come across as having a bit of tunnel vision in meeting goals. More often than not, they are talking about what their partner is or is not doing, and how that affects them, instead of asking "What options do I have?" and "Ok, that didn’t work. What else can I try?" or "How can I take responsibility for this situation?"

I even see the people responding to the OPs many times doing a lot of blame-shifting, or limiting options even further. People like myself, who are vehemently against adultery, will often come back with a curt remark about honesty, and then offer nothing more. Others will offer a shit-or-get-off-the-pot response like "Accept it or leave."

I’m not a sexual person. My partners know this. Part of their responsibility of choosing to be in a relationship with me, is that they need to be honest about their sexual desires.
On the flip side of that coin… some of my partners are highly sexual people. I know this. Part of my responsibility of choosing to be in a relationship with them, is that I need to be open to the fact that they will have those desires met. Notice. I did not say that I will meet those desires for them. I did not say that they will ask my permission. I said "they will have those desires met". (This directly relates to another often overlooked option the sexless partner has that I will expand on in a minute.)

So, I’m laying in bed with someone the other night. Now, I go to bed for a specific reason: sleep. That’s my whole purpose in being on this soft flat surface, so that I can get in a comfortable horizontal position, and let my sub-conscious mind take me into that realm where I’m doing funky things like counting the pigs at the county fair and trying to deliver packages to my great aunt while her livingroom is flooded. All the while, my body is replenishing itself so that in the morning I can do things more productively and efficiently.
Then, out of the blue, comes this butt pressing up against me.

This is an unspoken form of communication. I know this communication because I’m in tune with the person lying next to me and we’ve already had ongoing extensive verbal communication. This communication says "I want sexual attention."

Immediately, I have a choice. What choice I make will determine a lot of things. It will determine how I feel in the next hour or so. It will have an influence on how my partner feels. It will have an influence on the actions my partner takes in the upcoming moments and possibly days. I weigh all of those things before I make my choice.

I can choose to assist my partner in satiating his needs (this being the choice he ultimately hopes I make). If I choose to do this, because we already have good communication he understands that he will be enjoying the next hour more than I will. That means a lot to him. It means I’m willing to do things I don’t like doing in order to make him happy.

I can choose to watch my partner satiate his own needs. This means a lot to him. It means I’m willing to show an interest in him even when he is engaging in an activity I don’t have an interest in.
I can choose to tell him he needs to have that desire met elsewhere. This means a lot to him because it tells him I want his desires to be met even if I’m not the one who meets them.
MY choices go on and on… the general theme here is that regardless of the choice I make, I make the choice with him (and me) and his desires (and mine) and the affects on him (and me), in mind.

Now, he too also has choices. He chose to initiate. He knows that when he initiates, he has a 50/50 chance of being rejected. But, he doesn’t take that rejection personally. He understands me, so he knows that the 50/50 chance of rejection is what is necessary to know which decision he needs to make next. He doesn’t assume that just because he initiates, he is going to get exactly what he ultimately wants. He might. He might get "I’ll do this, but not that." He might get "No, but I’ll watch." He might get "No, go to the bathroom and do it yourself and then we’ll cuddle." He might get "No. Take care of it tomorrow."

It’s such basic communication!
He puts out the want and waits for the reply.
I weigh his desires vs my desires and give a reply.
He considers the reply and decides what to do next.
This is what communication is.

No where in that process do either of us engage in blame-shifting. No one’s feelings are hurt because no one takes the other’s desire as a personal attack. No one gets shattered self-esteem. No one is considered the wrong one or the right one. No one is told they need to do XYZ. No one is sent off to be psychoanalyzed. No one is told to take a pill to make it better. There is no name calling. No divorce is contemplated. No one feels the need to cheat and lie and go behind the other’s back. No one is tossed to the curb.

He could make other decisions that would not benefit our relationship. He could walk out on me and tell me I’m an uncaring, unloving bitch you doesn’t meet his needs. He could sneak around behind my back and get his rocks off with other women. He could say "I think there’s something wrong with you. Go see a doctor and take Viagra." He could continue to push himself on me and touch me when I’ve declined his offer. But he chooses not to do these things because he understands that those things are going to either make the situation even more difficult to cope with or they are going to open a whole new set of problems.

We avoid all that unnecessary crap by living by simple rules.
Don’t blame others.
Don’t project your own wants onto others.
Communicate effectively.
Weigh decisions before you make them.
Be honest.
Be flexible.

Those are the things that make for the ability to handle bumps in the road. Incompatible sex drives is NOT a reason to continue or dismiss a relationship anymore than incompatible tastes in entertainment. It is simply a bump in the road.

I can’t help but repeat this basic thought:
If your relationship is at risk because of the activities going on (or not going on) in the bedroom, the problem has NOTHING to do with sex and EVERYTHING to do with the relationship itself.
It makes no more sense to divorce/cheat on/lie to/get counseling/whatever over incompatible sex than it does to do those things for any other personal desire that’s incompatible.
You can sit back and talk about sex (or lack thereof) all day long and nothing will go anywhere because you’re not in the right ball park. What you should be talking about is WHAT RULES DOES OUR RELATIONSHIP LIVE BY? Do we engage in blame-shifting? Do we communicate? Do we project our desires on one another? Do we communicate effectively? Do we weigh decisions before we make them? Are we honest? Are we flexible?
If you aren’t doing those things, then the failure is in the relationship, not the bedroom.
You didn’t divorce him or cheat on him because he "neglected your sexual needs". You divorced him or cheated on him because the two of you lacked the basic rules of a good relationship.

Here is a list of just a few options (for BOTH partners) with incompatible sex drives. Some of them are more "give" or more "take" on one partner than the other. Some are a joint effort. Some of them can be combined and used together, or alternated. Some used now. Some later. Some here. Some there. This list is mainly to point out that there are more options than the obvious ones that have been pointed out kazillion times.
Here, I’m calling the person who wants more sex Partner A, and the person who does not desire sex Partner B. For the sake of this thread, I’m calling person A female and person B male.

• Partner B engages in sex (when so inclined) to please the other partner.
  
• Partner B sets established limits: I’m willing to be sexual, but not have actual intercourse. I’m willing to watch but not touch. I’m willing to have intercourse, but only on holidays. I’m willing to ABC, but not XYZ.
  
• Both partners agree that partner A can have desires met outside of the relationship. Even this, can be with limits (set by both partners). Partner A can have sex with a 3rd party if partner B gets to meet them, or if it’s only with a certain 3rd party, or if it’s done in front of partner B, or if it’s in the home while partner B is home (or away), or if it’s only on holidays, or if (insert criteria here).
  
• Partner A will explain explicitly what desire needs met and the two of them will go to the toy store together and partner B will buy the toys to meet that desire.
  
• Partner B will watch porn with partner A.
  
• Mutual masturbation.
  
• Masturbation in front of partner B.
  
• Partner A will only masturbate in private and not even bring up the subject of sex unless the desire changes.
  
• Join a swingers club together.
  
• Partner B will pimp out partner A.
  
• Partner B will have sex in return for partner A doing something in particular (cooking dinner that night, treating Partner B to a 1 hour massage, etc…)
  
• Establish a cuckold relationship.
  
• Partner B makes partner A a sex slave to his friends.
  
• Partner A will only ask for sex under certain conditions (it’s been at least 10 days since the last request, partner B had the day off work, it’s a weekend, etc..)
  
• Videotape the few-and-far-between encounters and have partner A use that as masturbation material.
  
• Lots of foreplay but then partner A finishes herself off alone.
  
• Start a poly household.
  
• Open marriage (within both partners set limits).

Here is an option that many don’t think about. When all else has failed, partner A simply states "I am going to have sex outside of our relationship. I have tried many things, and I don’t want to divorce you, but I also don’t want to lie to you or cheat behind your back. My sexual desires aren’t being met and you aren’t doing any giving on all the options (listed above). I’m being honest with you here and now. I don’t know any other options, so I’m putting it all on the table that what I am going to do is have sex with other people. I’m going to start doing this 30 days from now. That gives you time to decide what informed decision you want to make regarding my actions."
When all else fails, honesty - is - still an option.

If you went down that list and said to yourself "He won’t do any of those things." then it may be time to look at the option of divorce. But please keep in mind – at that point you are not divorcing someone because "he won’t have sex with me", you are divorcing someone because there is a lack of communication, inflexibility, selfishness, blame-shifting, lack of personal responsibility, and poor decision making.
Blaming the demise of a relationship on sexuality, is just one more form of blame-shifting!

I guess my main theme is this: There are options for overcoming bumps in the road. Incompatible sex drive is simply a bump, not a primary relationship factor. Look at all the options together as a couple. If one partner eliminates all the options to the point the relationship is no longer possible, it was not due to the particular bump in the road (in this case incompatible sex). It was due to the fact that the two people involved were not compatible on the basic level of what simple rules it takes to make a good healthy relationship happen.

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ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

ok I have a question based on all of this... why is it that everyone is saying that if the husband doesnt have sex with her, that he doesnt care or doesnt love her? Sex does not = love no matter how you slice it. Perhaps the man wants her companionship? But not the responsibility of the sexual aspect. She is the one that needs to decide what she wants to do.
 
I spent 6 years with ( off and on ) with a man in a basically sexless relationship. I was there and he was there and there was just as much love between us as most relationships but there just wasnt sex. ( well not very often atleast) I went into that relationship totally sex driven and for a while it confused me too because I equated sex with love. I learned though that I would much rather have the man, his company, his support, than his dick.
 
JMO YMMV

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Mr. wiggly is precious, as is life.. sometimes we don't stop to savor the blowjob

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Mr. wiggly is precious, as is life.. sometimes we don't stop to savor the blowjob........this is how it gets stuck in a zipper more than once...........

Selah,
Ron 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

I would like to point everyone over to the Ask a Master forum, please take note of this thread http://www.collarchat.com/He_used_my_pic_to_find_bi%2Dwomen_secretly/m_442938/tm.htm
 
And the real reason we were all over here posting comes out.... * shakes head*