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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 9:34:00 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:


I believe we both have equal power to end the relationship.



This always makes me cringe! If people had equal power.. then there wouldn't be any abusive relationships in the world. Because... the moment abuse occurred the person with that apparently equal power would leave!

It just not that simple!... Secondly, alot of times... it's actually takes more power to stay and work through the conflict in a relationship than to simply walk away. Sometimes... it's very little power to utilize to walk from a relationship!



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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 9:36:08 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
If I die Carol wants to be your next unicorn. From all your posts I'd be pleased with that outcome.



Thank you..... BUT, I really hope you are around for a very long time..... I just don't have time to build an addition onto the stable for the forseeable future!

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 11:19:18 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists


quote:


I believe we both have equal power to end the relationship.



This always makes me cringe! If people had equal power.. then there wouldn't be any abusive relationships in the world. Because... the moment abuse occurred the person with that apparently equal power would leave!

It just not that simple!... Secondly, alot of times... it's actually takes more power to stay and work through the conflict in a relationship than to simply walk away. Sometimes... it's very little power to utilize to walk from a relationship!




While I agree relationships are complex and this talk about power and such is equally complex, I think you are putting together very different things trying to make a point. When a relationship is abusive, it is no longer a normal relationship, and all things about power go out the window, that isn't a healthy relationship. Yes, there are all kinds of mitigating circumstances on relationships that make such statements hard, for example, if a wife has been home, taking care of the kids, hubby is abusive, she doesn't really have family and friends, making that move to get away from the abuse is horribly difficult, not to mention there is also the fear of physical retaliation. There are D/s , M/s where the s lives with the D or M, are totally dependent on them, don't work, don't have their own money, and in effect, if they were to leave would have nothing (which I have to admit I have problems with these total control relationships, given there is no legal meaning to them, it is walking the tightrope without a net to accept such a contract...)......so yes, one party may very well have more power, if the other person is dependent (The TPE people I have known, the ones I consider ethical, consider that situation, and make sure the s has a lifeline, resources, etc, if things go south,that either the s has them in place, or will help provide them)

I am confused when you say it takes more power to stay and work through a conflict, that is confusing power with effort or energy, two very different things. I have no doubt it can be easier to walk away from a relationship then do the hard work needed, when you see people divorce over stuff that looks trivial, or where a marriage implodes because the couple simply can't talk to one another and make known what they need, even though they love each other, it does seem like that and I cannot argue. That isn't about power, the power we are talking about is the decision whether to stay or whether to go, the ability to make that decision. And yes, sometimes it is easier for one person then another, there is no doubt, it may not be equal power (lot easier for a Master letting a slave go, who now has to fend for themselves, since he/she likely isn't facing starting over with jobs, money, etc). Working through a relationship may be more difficult then leaving, but it has nothing to do with power per se. Someone with no outside resources, who feels dependent on the other person, may be less motivated, feel they have less power to walk away, and that is very real, and in a sense, may be more likely then the person who feels they have options.

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 11:25:12 AM   
Spiritedsub2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS


quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA


quote:

ORIGINAL: zpenguin

Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship?
The individual with the strength to terminate it.


Ultimately, YES.

Yes, and true for D/s and vanilla relationships alike, IMO.

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 11:32:09 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: alhamdullilah

I would say that in many relationships, the submissive has greater power. Personally, that's not the kind of relationship I ever want to be in as a sub/slave. I have been in a relationship for which I made the initial decision to submit but it was the last decision I ever made, no limits, no safe words, no getting out if I was truly a slave, honoring that one and only choice I had at first. The power in that kind of relationship, whether you regard it as given or taken, belongs to the Master.

Perhaps we do have to accept the notion that everybody's truth is right because there are so many ways a relationship's dynamic can go. However, prior to his/her total surrender, the power is in both their hands until that exchange of power is made. Then it becomes the Dom's/Master's benefit, along with the authority, control and final say in any decision. If the submissive retains any power, he or she is topping from the bottom. So, if we are examining a working, successful D/s relationship, the power becomes that of the Dominant or else it's a sham as D/s relationships go, in my opinion.

If the submissive reclaims the power, say to end the relationship, he or she must concede that they are not doing so as a sub or slave but rather stepping out of that role in order to regain control and make final choices.

If you were talking a TPE, I would agree with your statements totally, but D/s relationships range the gamut. You are assuming that a Ds or even Ms relationship is total, where the dominant/master has total control, where the sub/slave has nothing, and that is a false assumption. I heard these arguments for years about a TPE, that unless the sub cedes total control it isn't real, unless they are willing to accept even physically harmful damage from their M or D, including being killed, and that to me was simply telling others how to live. The thing about a D/s is , or even an Ms, it is negotiated between the two parties, if an M wants total control, including cutting the s off from friends and family, etc, and the s accepts that, then that is their relationship, another M might not want to be that controlling about everything. I agree the power is there and a TPE s who accepts giving over total control is powerful at that point..but the reality is, that many D's and M's don't want that kind of power, in effect they cede power to the sub they wish them to have (whether it is in putting that into the contract, or granting it to them in the relationship, it is still ceding his/her authority). Saying that a s who retains power is topping from the bottom or is a sham IMO is trying to say there is only one true relationship, and that isn't true, power these kind of relationships is shared according to the rules. If the M or D allows their s to have a safe word, it might violate other's views of their relationship but within their world, it is not a sham. If a sub takes on themself something they shouldn't, like let's say punishing another s without being given that right, then yeah, it is topping from the bottom. Exercising power where it isn't granted is topping from the bottom, using the power granted is operating as the M or D wants *shrug*.

I also firmly believe that anyone, D or S, retains the right to walk away from a D/s, M/s relationship if they feel they are at risk, that the D or M is being abusive, that he/she is psycho or otherwise seems to have forgotten their s is a human being, not an inanimate argument. I have seen slaves in these kinds of relationships get brutally beaten by their M's, broken bones, internal injuries (and have seen one schmuck lawyer try to argue that it was okay since they were in a consensual relationship....that lawyer IMO should have been disbarred for even trying to argue that), that there is a line where even TPE's can't or shouldn't go, and that is self preservation...just my opinion, but I would stand by that one until the end of time. I realize that can be a gray area, because a vanilla could say that about a wife who likes to get spanked, but my point is that the s has as their duty to themselves to preserve themselves, that is the one place I think they have to retain power.

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 12:29:13 PM   
KnightofMists


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you really didn't read what I said did you

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 1:06:52 PM   
Focus50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zpenguin

Food for thought

Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship?

This was a conversation myself and a former sub had, I thought it was interesting.

Granted when you think of it without putting much thought you think oh the Dom does, well thats to a point. I speak for myself here not everyone, granted its easy to bark orders (in your subs mind this is disrespectful if she or he is new to you,,granted not always the case because lets face it some like it that way) but in order to have a healthy D/s relationship trust, caring, and kindness must also be displayed just as much if not more than the rough side.
So that being said, I believe demanding something of someone upon first contact is silly, irrational, and disrespectful. The conclusion that myself and my former sub came to is, the submission of one to another is a gift. The submissive is willing to allow you to take control. They trust you with giving them what they desire(sexually that is), to protect them, guidance, and safety. My sub (we will call her Eve) was new to the scene when I met her, but she was very curious and willing to learn. I've had prior subs before Eve but she was the first one to question different aspects, and actually open my eyes to things I haven't thought of before. I believe the Dom only holds as much power as the submissive is willing to give them. Also on the flip side, the Dom holds as much power within that margin as he/she desires. Some are willing do the 24/7 and others its a bedroom or once in a blue moon deal.
So what are your thoughts?

Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship?


We both do and neither of us do! Crikey, you've had several subs and can't even define relationship power, as opposed to control?

Power (in *any* relationship) is equal - that *both* have exactly the same choice and ability to stay with or leave the other. So I define "power" as personal desirability - that anyone who has something you desire has a certain power over you - FACT OF LIFE...! The fact that you want what your submissive offers is HER power.

Cues that old chestnut of submission being a gift....

It's only a "gift" if you (the dom?) don't have anything the submissive desires in return. Which would make me wonder exactly why she's even offering you her "gift" if you don't. ie, what's *your* power (of desirability) as opposed to any ole vanilla?

Control is the keyword in D/s, not power. D/s only works in an UNequal control dynamic - that sub defers to dom's will. And frankly, any sub touting that her submission is a gift likely has an unhealthy level of control for the relationship to even work.

My girl has exactly the same power to stay or leave as I do. For as long as she chooses to stay, she obeys *MY* rules and commands because control is MINE.

Focus.


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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 1:38:44 PM   
Charles6682


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The idea that submission is a gift is the fact that it is not easy to find someone who will "submit" !00%.Sure,theres sexual submissives who get off on submissive fantasies but thats not real submission either.Sure,anyone can get someone to submit for a session or whatever,but if the guys paying a session,chances are he's the one who is really in control.So,true submission is a gift.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 3/4/2013 1:39:28 PM >


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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 1:46:19 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
The idea that submission is a gift is the fact that it is not easy to find someone who will "submit" !00%.

I disagree. From my own perspective the vast majority of the human race is pretty submissive. I think the only problem with getting someone to submit 100% is being worthy of that. That's what stops most "masters".


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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 1:55:13 PM   
Charles6682


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I disagree.REAL submissives are not a dime-a-dozen that you can just pick out of from some pound.Sure,anyone can become submissive once in awhile since submission,like aggression,are natural human emotions.To actually fully submit to someone requires trust.To actually submit to someone like that does require humility and courage on the submissive.Not every Dom/Master deserves such an honorabe submissive.Thats what stops some real subs sometimes.I know I have turned down a few Dommes because they think I'm just some moneybank.It takes 2 to tango.Don't mistake submission for weakness.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 3/4/2013 1:56:31 PM >


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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 1:56:07 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

From my own perspective the vast majority of the human race is pretty submissive. I think the only problem with getting someone to submit 100% is being worthy of that. That's what stops most "masters".



I think the majority are fairly sub most of the time or falling somewhere in the middle range between dom and sub. To me, it's the leadership and authority that goes with dominance that is the 'gift' - b/c it's rare.

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 2:11:06 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

CP said:
I think the majority are fairly sub most of the time or falling somewhere in the middle range between dom and sub. To me, it's the leadership and authority that goes with dominance that is the 'gift' - b/c it's rare.

That would certainly match my experience as a hiring manager. Finding people with the right mindset to lead was always a problem. It's interesting to speculate on the reasons for that but I think it comes down to genetic balancing. You just don't need all that many leaders and having too many causes a problem for the pack as a whole. It just makes sense that there'd be more indians than chiefs in any highly social species.

That being said though I want to clarify my stance. Yup, I think finding submissives is defined as "walking out the front door of my house". But anyone I'd want in my house, collar, or bed? THAT is a whole different kettle of fish. Carol is not "a dime a dozen" nor would any woman be that I allowed into my inner circle. It's just not the "submissive" attribute that makes her rare.


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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 4:32:12 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
The idea that submission is a gift is the fact that it is not easy to find someone who will "submit" !00%.

I disagree. From my own perspective the vast majority of the human race is pretty submissive. I think the only problem with getting someone to submit 100% is being worthy of that. That's what stops most "masters".




I tend to agree with you .... Most Masters tend not be worthy of what they are asking for or searching for. And only a very very few tend to hold on it and make something of it when they do find it! It's a pretty poor leader that blames the followers for not following!

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 4:35:40 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

Carol is not "a dime a dozen" nor would any woman be that I allowed into my inner circle. It's just not the "submissive" attribute that makes her rare.




agree again! Submission is only one narrow aspect of many that makes a person and good match to oneself... but even then... more than a few fuck that up! Because they lack the skills and qualities to make something of it!

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 5:28:50 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

The idea that submission is a gift is the fact that it is not easy to find someone who will "submit" !00%.Sure,theres sexual submissives who get off on submissive fantasies but thats not real submission either.Sure,anyone can get someone to submit for a session or whatever,but if the guys paying a session,chances are he's the one who is really in control.So,true submission is a gift.
In My experience, you're pretty far off of the mark. I associate with waaaaayyyyy too many people who are either D/s or M/s 24/7. It's not a game that they play or an act that they put on. They aren't 'clients' or 'bedroom subs'. The are submissive or live their role as a slave in their relationships all of the time.

In all seriousness, you need to get out more because this 'oh, genuine submissives are rare' thing that you've been going with lately is pretty weak.



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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 6:00:07 PM   
Charles6682


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I've been out enough and I will be going out more.Frankly,this"my shit" don't stink gets weak after awhile and theres plenty of people on here with that mentality.Seriously,theres alot of people in this Lifestyle who I have talked who don't take anything on Collarchat serious because of all the blowhards and "my shit doesn't stink" mentality.I don't regret doing anything I have done with those videos.You people here can call it what you want.I've done more things than things than i care to remember.Whether or not someone thinks that real or not,thats their opinion.

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 6:26:05 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I've been out enough and I will be going out more.Frankly,this"my shit" don't stink gets weak after awhile and theres plenty of people on here with that mentality.Seriously,theres alot of people in this Lifestyle who I have talked who don't take anything on Collarchat serious because of all the blowhards and "my shit doesn't stink" mentality.I don't regret doing anything I have done with those videos.You people here can call it what you want.I've done more things than things than i care to remember.Whether or not someone thinks that real or not,thats their opinion.
What do your videos have to do with it? I'm talking about the people who are living in PE relationships. Sure, some of them I've met through CC. More I've met through the community. You don't see as many single people as many people tend to believe. It's one of the most common reasons (besides privacy concerns) that people don't attend events or groups like MAsT. That being because most folks are already paired up and have dynamics in place.

There's honestly not a shortage. Not that I've ever seen, anyway.



ETA - "Taken" does not equate "doesn't exist".



< Message edited by LadyPact -- 3/4/2013 6:29:02 PM >


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

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Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 6:29:34 PM   
DesFIP


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There's a difference between not wanting to be the leader, and being willing to commit to following someone else. In any group dynamic you see people who won't take on jobs, yet carp at those who do.

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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 6:34:58 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
The idea that submission is a gift is the fact that it is not easy to find someone who will "submit" !00%.

I disagree. From my own perspective the vast majority of the human race is pretty submissive. I think the only problem with getting someone to submit 100% is being worthy of that. That's what stops most "masters".



There are whole bunch of male Doms that would tell all of you that I'm not submissive. There's one sitting across from me right now, that would tell all of you that I am.


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RE: Who really holds the power in a D/s relationship? - 3/4/2013 6:37:43 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
Seriously,theres alot of people in this Lifestyle who I have talked who don't take anything on Collarchat serious because of all the blowhards and "my shit doesn't stink" mentality.



You could find that about any BDSM website. And if you feel that way, why bother to stay?

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