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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/27/2013 9:01:13 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeverinVim

I would respond, but frankly I think it would just give me a headache. lol

That was condescending, assuming I understand the term correctly.

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— Aswad.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 3:29:28 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

theres this thing called "common courtesy".Treat others how you would like to be treated.

Exactly so.

Not everybody subscribes to the golden rule.

I consider it common courtesy to not treat others the way I would like to be treated, but based on who they merit being treated. Considering that I find it insulting when people presume that I necessarily would want to be treated as they wish to be treated, I very deliberately choose not to return that insult.

Now it is getting difficult - if I, for instance, do not know the person I talk to (and I know no one here) how can I know how they wish to be treated? My only yard stick is common politeness as I know it.

That is by means meant as an insult.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 3:45:09 AM

egern

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There are many ways to be misunderstood when not face to face, but I am rather certain that even if such occurs from time to time, by and large it is mostly when people are consistently condescending, patronizing or rude that you react to them. If you see a pattern. It does happen, as a dom thing, but most people are simply not like that.

Even if someone can come across as rude the first time, when you read them more it will become more easy to understand their ways, and you will see how they attempt to explain and how they react, and you will understand.

Then there is the problem of a topic that is so emotional to a lot of people that everybody drags out the heavy guns, all claiming they were attacked first. In those cases all bets are off.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 5:46:04 AM

SeverinVim

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeverinVim

I would respond, but frankly I think it would just give me a headache. lol

That was condescending, assuming I understand the term correctly.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Because the argument does not make sense. As I stated in my original post, condescension is a sign of insecurity. Insecurity is typically displayed in reaction to something else, namely a threat (which could be real or perceived). It is a feeling, like defensiveness, that is neither good nor bad. For example, if someone is having his or her gender or religion or sexual orientation or ethnicity attacked by someone else, it is natural to respond defensively. In other words, it is a normal human reaction. Another example is if someone is being attacked physically. It is natural to defend oneself. In that case, it's not only a natural reaction but the most logical course of action as well.

As I said in my original post, because of the nature of condescension (as a subjective feeling manifesting itself in one's behavior), no one is above or below condescension. Smart people can condescend to others. Stupid people can condescend to others. Therefore, condescension is neither a sign of higher intelligence nor an indication of lower intelligence. Again, it is only a sign of insecurity.

To me, as a behavior exhibited toward others, condescension is only "logical" if it serves a corrective purpose, such as changing the behavior (or beliefs) of others. Therefore, to be effective as a behavioral modification tool, condescension would require an element of persuasion. Unfortunately, most of the time I find that condescension is applied so clumsily as to render it ineffective. And, yes, I was being condescending earlier and, no, it was not serving a corrective purpose. Then again, I never stated that all of my behavior has to be logical, either.

I don't like it when people believe that their condescension "proves" that they are better than other people. It doesn't. Again, all it proves is that something or someone is making someone else feel insecure, which, again, is neither a good nor a bad thing. Displaying an air of superiority does not make someone superior. Of course it would be fun if the laws of the universe worked that way, but they don't.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 6:51:20 AM

TyrannicalTeam

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If I may add an older gents take on the subject...

condescension is a sure sign of youth inexperience and arrogance... in other words people who use condescension do so as means to bluster their way forward through things their unfamiliar with... but this is by no means a trait confined to Dom's... I see a lot of this from young men and women in the business world, first time managers or new business owners... they do learn to settle down in time but it's often up to us to tap them on the shoulder from time to time and say "Chill'

< Message edited by TyrannicalTeam -- 4/28/2013 6:55:19 AM >

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 7:48:19 AM

Duskypearls

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeverinVim

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeverinVim

I would respond, but frankly I think it would just give me a headache. lol

That was condescending, assuming I understand the term correctly.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Because the argument does not make sense. As I stated in my original post, condescension is a sign of insecurity. Insecurity is typically displayed in reaction to something else, namely a threat (which could be real or perceived). It is a feeling, like defensiveness, that is neither good nor bad. For example, if someone is having his or her gender or religion or sexual orientation or ethnicity attacked by someone else, it is natural to respond defensively. In other words, it is a normal human reaction. Another example is if someone is being attacked physically. It is natural to defend oneself. In that case, it's not only a natural reaction but the most logical course of action as well.

As I said in my original post, because of the nature of condescension (as a subjective feeling manifesting itself in one's behavior), no one is above or below condescension. Smart people can condescend to others. Stupid people can condescend to others. Therefore, condescension is neither a sign of higher intelligence nor an indication of lower intelligence. Again, it is only a sign of insecurity.

To me, as a behavior exhibited toward others, condescension is only "logical" if it serves a corrective purpose, such as changing the behavior (or beliefs) of others. Therefore, to be effective as a behavioral modification tool, condescension would require an element of persuasion. Unfortunately, most of the time I find that condescension is applied so clumsily as to render it ineffective. And, yes, I was being condescending earlier and, no, it was not serving a corrective purpose. Then again, I never stated that all of my behavior has to be logical, either.

I don't like it when people believe that their condescension "proves" that they are better than other people. It doesn't. Again, all it proves is that something or someone is making someone else feel insecure, which, again, is neither a good nor a bad thing. Displaying an air of superiority does not make someone superior. Of course it would be fun if the laws of the universe worked that way, but they don't.

Brilliant post, definition and explanation, Sever. Love it. This would be how I see/experience/interpret condescension.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 9:41:37 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeverinVim

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that condescension is not a sign of intelligence but of insecurity.

quote:

condescension |ˌkändəˈsenCHən|
noun
an attitude of patronizing superiority; disdain: a tone of condescension | I'm treated with condescension.

While I can see how condescension in certain circumstances would point to insecurity, I am lost at why you would think that such is necessarily the case.

If you take a condescending attitude towards somebody when you simply factually are superior to them, and their actions justify feeling disdain for them, it need not imply insecurity at all.

That's debatable. If one is secure in one's feelings of superiority (whether real or imagined), why can't one just quietly be content with that and walk away? Why would one feel the need to take up a condescending attitude at all?

What would be the motivation for condescension? A parent or teacher might be condescending towards a child, but their motive in doing so might to be to help the child, to teach him/her to improve and be a better person. The key question in any action we take is: Whose needs are being met?

If it's to help the child and his/her needs, then there might be a productive reason for it. If a person chooses to be condescending to meet only his or her own needs (and does not care for or wish to help the object of their condescension), then I would find reason to question it. Someone choosing to be condescending to meet their own personal needs would make me wonder what needs they have which are not already being met. If they feel the need to condescend to someone they already feel superior to, then are they seeking further validation of their own superiority? Are they not sure of that and feel the need to condescend because they need to prove to themselves that they're superior?

quote:

If I see an adult picking on, or bullying a little kid, I will feel disdain for them that I think is very justified.

At that point, I may or may not approach them with an attitude of condescension, depending on what I feel the situation most appropriately calls for, but if I would should condescension in my tone of voice and attitude the appropriate response, it sure as hell wouldn't point at feelings of insecurity in me.

In this case, I would agree that it would be justified, although I'm not sure that condescension would be the most appropriate response. If it's a case of child abuse, then calling the police might be the better response. Or perhaps just simple justifiable outrage in the case of an adult bullying or picking on a little kid. Condescension may not be strong enough of a response, and it may seem a bit too subtle considering the severity of the circumstances you're describing.

Also, I'm not sure how feelings of superiority would come into play in a situation like that. The adult would clearly be abusing his position of superiority over the child. It wouldn't matter if I personally felt superior or inferior to that adult, since I would still recognize his behavior as wrong. I would still feel disdain for such a person, but not superior.

quote:

I can give you a list a mile long of situations where I'd consider being condescending and would find it appropriate to do so, none of which would give you ANY indication of whether or not I felt secure or insecure in that situation.

The fact that you, and other posters, seem to feel that "condescension" and "insecurity" are synonymous frankly baffles me to no end.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I would consider condescension to be a way of avoiding being direct. There may be a time and place for it, and I wouldn't say that it always demonstrates insecurity. Sometimes, an indirect response might be more appropriate.

But I don't think condescension demonstrates superiority either. If I see one adult acting in a condescending manner towards another adult, I would not take that as evidence that the condescending person is somehow "superior" to the object of their condescension.

In general, I try to be extra careful and cautious about "feeling superior" to someone else, but even if a person truly is superior towards someone else, condescension almost seems like rubbing it in. It can also make one seem almost "inferior" at times, especially in the case of a middle manager type who is condescending towards his subordinates yet a shameless brown-noser with his superiors.

Any "superior" person can condescend to an "inferior" person quite easily; it's just like shooting fish in a barrel. Where's the challenge? Pulling the wings off of flies would require greater skill than that, but I wouldn't respect that either.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 10:01:29 AM

littlewonder

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What I find funny is that some of the people here saying condescension is about security and immature and wrong, etc....are just as guilty of using it here. And no I'm not picking on any one or two particular people.

I still don't understand what's so bad about feeling superior over others. Yeah, I admit I'm better than some people. Some people are better than me. I would hope they would be confident in that thought. And some people deserve to be knocked down a peg or two.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 4/28/2013 10:02:27 AM >

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 10:22:39 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

What I find funny is that some of the people here saying condescension is about security and immature and wrong, etc....are just as guilty of using it here. And no I'm not picking on any one or two particular people.

I still don't understand what's so bad about feeling superior over others. Yeah, I admit I'm better than some people. Some people are better than me. I would hope they would be confident in that thought. And some people deserve to be knocked down a peg or two.

As I was reading, I was just laughing about this very thing!

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 3:47:55 PM

CynthiaWVirginia

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quote:

When you observe a dominant being condescending to another person (online, as an example, on a message board here if someone asks a dumb question), do you consider that an attractive trait?

No.

quote:

Do you admire their take charge attitude?

No. Also, I don't see this behavior as a "take charge" attitude. (When I do this, I am very aware that I am lowering myself to do so.)

quote:

Even if the person asked an obviously ignorant question or behaves badly, when a dominant responds by being condescending, does that make them appear more "dominant" in the way they handle the situation - versus being patient or polite?

These boards are not my territory, and the people who come here are not my prey. I like to socialize, but I can do this without driving newbies away from the boards...yes, sometimes I miss sharpening my claws and wit at another's expense (hello, sadist here). I aspire to better manners than I have and it shames me when I drop them and behave like I'm in some school yard...newbies come to the boards to say "Look at me! I've arrived! Woohoo!" and to ask questions they cannot ask their mother, their ex, their priest/pastor/whatever. We are the bridge between shiite learned by watching BDSM porn...and RACK and SSC in real time. I would hate to land in some foreign country and have everyone feel the need to teach me how to fit in by being condescending, rather than by being patient and polite.

quote:

If someone is handled in an overly nice situation, does that make the dominant appear weak?

Some may think that I am "overly nice". But they don't know me. I spent years tutoring ESL college students, tutoring elementary school kids, working in group homes with very handicapped adults, and have raised an autistic son (early infantile autism); in other words, I had to develop my patience in order to get what I wanted. As a kid I needed more "family" and tended to find people in their late sixties to seventies and eighties the very best people to adopt and hang out with; they were patient and kind and fun, I was fortunate to have known them and have them influence my life. What I'm saying is...I don't care if I seem weak to others in these boards. I know my own strengths and my own weaknesses, and struggling with myself to be my better self is not a sign of weakness.

quote:

What if it was in a situation where a dominant was being treated incompetently by waitstaff or technical people, for example. Is a condescending approach considered appropriate?

Would being condescending get me what I want? Doubtful. With waiters and waitresses, I'd likely get their spit in my soup, etc., as payback. As I said before, I aspire to better manners and have several books on good manners on my book shelves. Being rude to the peons/waitstaff/employees isn't recommended in any of them. Yes, I think less of someone who cannot remain calm, restate what they need/want, in great detail if needed, educate if necessary, and find a way to get the job done without causing a big ugly scene.

quote:

Submissives, when you observe a dominant treating a submissive (who is not their submissive partner) in a neutral situation with a clearly condescending attitude in front of other people, does that make you respect them more or less and why?

Not a submissive, but I have been in this situation at several play parties. Yes, I thought less of the man. During one of the parties, my slave was needed somewhere else for a while and I got up to get my own drink...and some Dom basically shook his finger at me, trying to teach me "my place". See, there were lots of submissives and slaves in that room and I "should" have remained in my chair and had one of them get me a drink. I simply told him that my slave was outside bringing some things up the stairs and smiled, because it amused me. I didn't need to explain to him that I prefer service from my own slave...and sometimes from the host's slave, a friend of mine who happened to have her hands full at that time and wasn't available.

quote:

If a non dominant woman treated a person in a condescending way, do you cut them less slack?

I cut them more slack, actually. For some strange reason...I seem to expect higher standards from Dominants.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 4:16:57 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TyrannicalTeam

If I may add an older gents take on the subject...

condescension is a sure sign of youth inexperience and arrogance... in other words people who use condescension do so as means to bluster their way forward through things their unfamiliar with... but this is by no means a trait confined to Dom's... I see a lot of this from young men and women in the business world, first time managers or new business owners... they do learn to settle down in time but it's often up to us to tap them on the shoulder from time to time and say "Chill'

Boy, are you wrong. The majority of condescending male "Doms" that I've dealt with were older and claimed many years in the lifestyle.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/28/2013 9:22:02 PM

FrostedFlake

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Some folks seem to miss that condescension is SUPPOSED to be offensive.

That IS why I use it, I am trying to make that particular point. It's me saying "Look at me! I'm being offensive!"

That's WHY it is not attractive. It isn't supposed to be. On the contrary. So, it follows naturally, occasional condescension is a means to an end. Permanent condescension, on the other hand... I'm sure you can work out the rest, yourself.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/29/2013 1:30:30 PM

Kana

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1-Condescending and dominant are not mutually exclusive. One can be both.
2-Being condescending doesn't have to be about insecurity or anything else. I'm frequently snide and condescending to those who deserve it. Doesn't make me insecure. In fact, often, it's the opposite-I'm the one guy in a crowd full of people who will say what everyone else is thinking. Frankly, as pointed out above by FF, being condescending is about offending someone-depending on the level of nuance it can be subtle or straight up in their face. I do it because i'm trying to offend someone-not to be nice or liked.
3-None of this has anything to do with whether I'm polite or how I treat waiters or any such thing. Left to my own devices, I'm a pretty polite, well mannered guy, quick with a kind comment or to do something to make others laugh.
But hit me the wrong way, act like a dickhead or try and take advantage of me, yeah, I call that shit out cold and scathingly so.
And I don't wait around, no bones about it. I speak my mind and move on, and if they have a problem with it, well, that's their problem. As a friend once said, Far far better to give a resentment than to hold one. :-)

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/30/2013 5:03:28 AM

LaTigresse

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Kana, Generic Dude had insomnia last night and was reading on here. He bookmarked that post for me to read and asked if I had a twin brother he was unaware of. That described me perfectly.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/30/2013 5:23:14 AM

Zonie63

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

1-Condescending and dominant are not mutually exclusive. One can be both.
2-Being condescending doesn't have to be about insecurity or anything else. I'm frequently snide and condescending to those who deserve it. Doesn't make me insecure. In fact, often, it's the opposite-I'm the one guy in a crowd full of people who will say what everyone else is thinking. Frankly, as pointed out above by FF, being condescending is about offending someone-depending on the level of nuance it can be subtle or straight up in their face. I do it because i'm trying to offend someone-not to be nice or liked.
3-None of this has anything to do with whether I'm polite or how I treat waiters or any such thing. Left to my own devices, I'm a pretty polite, well mannered guy, quick with a kind comment or to do something to make others laugh.
But hit me the wrong way, act like a dickhead or try and take advantage of me, yeah, I call that shit out cold and scathingly so.
And I don't wait around, no bones about it. I speak my mind and move on, and if they have a problem with it, well, that's their problem. As a friend once said, Far far better to give a resentment than to hold one. :-)

I don't think there's anything wrong with speaking one's mind. If someone is acting like a dickhead or trying to take advantage of someone, then by all means, open up with both barrels. But to be honest, I don't see condescension as speaking one's mind or making no bones about it. It seems like just the opposite, since it's a way of expressing disapproval but not really saying it directly, but more in a left-handed and indirect manner. I see it as an impediment to direct and open communication. If someone has a problem with someone else, it's better to just say what it is in no uncertain terms, rather than beating around the bush.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/30/2013 9:09:48 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Kana, Generic Dude had insomnia last night and was reading on here. He bookmarked that post for me to read and asked if I had a twin brother he was unaware of. That described me perfectly.

He just described Master, too.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/30/2013 12:52:07 PM

Kana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

1-Condescending and dominant are not mutually exclusive. One can be both.
2-Being condescending doesn't have to be about insecurity or anything else. I'm frequently snide and condescending to those who deserve it. Doesn't make me insecure. In fact, often, it's the opposite-I'm the one guy in a crowd full of people who will say what everyone else is thinking. Frankly, as pointed out above by FF, being condescending is about offending someone-depending on the level of nuance it can be subtle or straight up in their face. I do it because i'm trying to offend someone-not to be nice or liked.
3-None of this has anything to do with whether I'm polite or how I treat waiters or any such thing. Left to my own devices, I'm a pretty polite, well mannered guy, quick with a kind comment or to do something to make others laugh.
But hit me the wrong way, act like a dickhead or try and take advantage of me, yeah, I call that shit out cold and scathingly so.
And I don't wait around, no bones about it. I speak my mind and move on, and if they have a problem with it, well, that's their problem. As a friend once said, Far far better to give a resentment than to hold one. :-)

I don't think there's anything wrong with speaking one's mind. If someone is acting like a dickhead or trying to take advantage of someone, then by all means, open up with both barrels. But to be honest, I don't see condescension as speaking one's mind or making no bones about it. It seems like just the opposite, since it's a way of expressing disapproval but not really saying it directly, but more in a left-handed and indirect manner. I see it as an impediment to direct and open communication. If someone has a problem with someone else, it's better to just say what it is in no uncertain terms, rather than beating around the bush.

Yeah. but:
A-sometimes the social situation doesn't allow for a straight up call out
B-Even if it does, sometimes it's not entirely worth the hassle
C-Then again, there are people who it's a whole lot of fun to mock to their face, especially the "smart' types who think they're all that and a bag o'chips, but they're too stupid to see that I'm killing them right to their face and they still don't get it. Yeah, those, those are priceless moments.
Nothing like watching em dig deeper.
D-There are people who deserve, nay demand, talking down too. You know, because they suck as human beings-they're a waste of fucking skin and it offends me that they breathe the same air as I do.
E-Sometimes it terrific to do this by being massively polite, in that stiff upper lip crusty manner the Brits perfected aeons ago(Nobody, and i mean nobody, can do condescending like a Englishmen who knows what he's about). Then you get all the social nuances without any of the guttural trimmings. At this point, being condescending or engaging in mockery become a wonderful act of delicate social surgery.
F-I'm kinda sociopathic in most ways. I just don't give a fuck what most people think so I don't care if they like how I act or not. If I offend them, fuck them. They're grown ups and thus responsible for their own feelings. Not me.
G-Maybe most importantly, I am, after all, a sadist. I like cruelties, both small and large. I mean hey, I'd rather take a blow torch to the asshat usually, but certain legal details prevent that from occurring, so I settle for petty spite. Does it make me a bigger, better person? Naaaaaah. But it sure as hell makes me smile, and if someone else's suffering makes my day is a happier place (See note F above), then that's an idea that I'm 100% for.
H-Who the hell says I want to have open conversation with these folks. I wanna mock em, make fun of em and skewer em, preferably in public. The very last fucking thing i want is ongoing communication...*shudder*...heck, that's why I'm being snide-so I don't hafta.

Just MHO and all.

I-Edited to add-And sometimes I'm condescending or engage in mockery because the Mods would throw my happy ass off the boards much rikki-tik if I actually spoke my mind and said what I really thought. :-0
Oh, Dear lord, if I said that, I'da lasted less than 1/2 an hour on this joint. Sad to say, its pretty much still true.

< Message edited by Kana -- 4/30/2013 12:58:53 PM >

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/30/2013 3:45:03 PM

PeonForHer

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FR

May I say that everyone here has given very thoughtful and splendidly expressed replies? I think you've all done *very well indeed*, especially the smaller women and men with unfortunate hairstyles.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/30/2013 3:59:23 PM >

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/30/2013 3:47:51 PM

PeonForHer

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Heh. It takes a Brit to be *really* condescending, doesn't it? Well, I know of at least one person using these boards who I can rely upon to agree with alacrity.

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RE: Dominants being condescending - personality trait? - 4/30/2013 3:50:52 PM

Bhruic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

When you observe a dominant being condescending to another person (online, as an example, on a message board here if someone asks a dumb question), do you consider that an attractive trait? Do you admire their take charge attitude?

In my opinion, condescension - especially in a situation such as your example - is the hallmark of an insecure personality desperately trying to compensate. I don't consider it attractive.

However, I have also encountered the situation where the ignorant, desperately trying to conceal their ignorance, accuse others of condescension. I find this equally unattractive.

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