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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 5:51:34 AM

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When reading the post, my first thought was did he really rape them?
You said the man was GOOD, and always had ladies on his arm. With that broader base, I imagine there could be some intense jealousy by some women, and well sometimes people say nasty things for revenge. IT could be true, but until proven guilty, I would doubt the allegations. I would stay out of it myself, unless I had a really close friend I wanted to warn about the gossip, other then that, I would leave it alone.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 7:10:34 AM

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More clarification:

When I said he was good, that referred to the speed with which he took women in.

None of his exes have attended Scarlet Moons after the breakup. (This pisses me off, because he's removing women from my potential "playlist". Yeah, call me immature.)

RedMagic made a very good point, and it's been bothering me. I have seen him push the edge of consent, and have heard of him trying to pressure a woman into play with a third party. He's evidently skirting the boundaries between con non-con and simple nonconsent. While I personally would strongly advise against con non-con with someone who is not VERY well known, others do it. This falls smack between YKINMK and "that's not cool."

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 7:16:56 AM

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Steven,

My first thoughts on this matter... is to not get into the middle of this bullshit and avoid it as best you can. Now, there are times when the bullshit and situation thrusts you into the middle. In situations like this, it's always hard to determine what is or is not the actual real "truth" going down. However, there is a truth that this dude has been accused (a number of times). That's the reality of the situation.

You could have a straight up talk with D or B or whoever. Let it be known, that you personally don't want the headaches involved with this Drama. Clearly, I think everybody should be able to agree upon 1 thing. That there is a problem going on.

It's really not your job to fix the problem, however if pressed. Wash your hands of it all for awhile by removing yourself from these groups. (a thought). Or... simply tell them... "Sorry, this is a fucked up mess and you're not welcome here because of the fucked up issues going on" (This is if your in charge of shit).

You need make it clear that you yourself want no part of being sucked into this social drama and scene going down. That you are into these groups because they interest you.

Don't become too passionate about interests, because interests you can walk away from at a drop of a dime... if you need to. Passions can become a trap of sorts. Where you loose the common sense to walk away from (if need be).

Good Luck, I don't know what else to say. Just make it clear to everybody, that this situation is not the kind of shit you're into and sincerely want no part of.

Maintain your own sanity, your own reputation, and adhere by your own ethics and morals above anybody else's bullshit. You are already struggling with some internal conflicts in your moral code over other peoples bullshit at the moment.

< Message edited by Whiplashsmile4 -- 5/4/2013 7:17:36 AM >

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 7:31:29 AM

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quote:

I have seen him push the edge of consent, and have heard of him trying to pressure a woman into play with a third party.

My ex Dom did this with me and other women all the time. The ones with healthy boundaries walked away.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 8:35:26 AM

SomethingCatchy

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You've seen him pressure women to do something they weren't willing to do, and you didn't mention these women going to the DM and reporting his behavior. That smacks of immaturity on both sides and I still hold firm that I do not associate with idiots and I wouldn't be caught dead there.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 9:47:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy

You've seen him pressure women to do something they weren't willing to do, and you didn't mention these women going to the DM and reporting his behavior. That smacks of immaturity on both sides and I still hold firm that I do not associate with idiots and I wouldn't be caught dead there.

I don't know if I'd label it as immaturity. The problem is, if these women are new to WIITWD, they may not realize that what he's doing is inappropriate or that they can say no.

They don't know any better when someone tells them, "If you were REALLY submissive, you would do XYZ". They live in fear that they are doing it wrong, that they will be rejected from the new life that they have just discovered and get labeled as not really submissive within the community. It's gets used as a form of emotional blackmail. They end up feeling like they can't say "No". It's for that very reason that many of the predator types go looking for novices. (It's also for that reason that many novices leave WIITWD after their first experience)

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 9:53:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

None of his exes have attended Scarlet Moons after the breakup. (This pisses me off, because he's removing women from my potential "playlist". Yeah, call me immature.)

Based on that alone, you need to butt out.

You don't have a clear unbiased opinion in this argument. What you do will always be tinted by the perceived direct benefit it would have or wouldn't have for you. That means you're going to be biased towards wanting this guy to be guilty.

You have no proof. Other than that you know that these women where willing to engage with a man who may blur the lines and didn't take it upon themselves to not engage with him because of that. That means that it is VERY likely that these situations of rape where cases of people getting in over their head because they didn't communicated, and things got perceived differently in the moment by both sides.

That means that the possibility of this guy being innocent just increased.

You stepping in and attempting to destroy a man's reputation because you're jealous at the pussy he's getting is NOT the right thing to do.

Edited to add: From what I saw on fetlife, this thing has exploded into a giant drama fest to the point that a new fetish was created to pick on the women who runs Scarlet Moons... any particular reason you felt it necessary to spread out the drama more by bringing it here?

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 5/4/2013 9:58:00 AM >

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 9:53:56 AM

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Dude, from your posts, all this sounds like to me is you are upset that he's removing women that you want to go after and a tinge of jealousy and nothing more.

You have absolutely NOTHING to substantiate your claims and you just come off as a drama whore.

These women are adults. If they get into trouble then they learned a good lesson. Why do you feel the need to be a rescuer. This is a good and I mean REALLY good question to ask yourself. Why?? My experience with rescuers have been one of two; they feel women are these innocent, mythological princess creatures who can't do anything for themselves and the rescuer believes that only a man can help her and then there's the daddy issue. They actually like the idea of being a caregiver and yeah, an unpopular opinion here, just a warning...they want children but refuse to come to terms with that so next closest thing is helping a woman, teaching her, taking care of her, etc....Like I said, my experiences.

Anyway, stay out of it unless you want to find yourself that hatred of all women who will eventually spread rumors about you the same way you want to spread rumors about this guy.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 10:33:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I don't know if I'd label it as immaturity. The problem is, if these women are new to WIITWD, they may not realize that what he's doing is inappropriate or that they can say no.

They don't know any better when someone tells them, "If you were REALLY submissive, you would do XYZ". They live in fear that they are doing it wrong, that they will be rejected from the new life that they have just discovered and get labeled as not really submissive within the community. It's gets used as a form of emotional blackmail. They end up feeling like they can't say "No". It's for that very reason that many of the predator types go looking for novices. (It's also for that reason that many novices leave WIITWD after their first experience)

OK, but that's the difference, isn't it? Them feeling like they can't say "no" isn't the same as them saying no. A bottom not knowing any better isn't the responsibility of the top. (I'm not denying that some tops take advantage of exactly that.) If we're talking about situations like you describe above where it's a case of she wanted to say no at the time but didn't for any of a thousand reasons running through her head, I'll be the first one to feel sorry with her for feeling like she was manipulated, even had her own lack of knowledge used against her, but it's not rape.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 10:58:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I don't know if I'd label it as immaturity. The problem is, if these women are new to WIITWD, they may not realize that what he's doing is inappropriate or that they can say no.

They don't know any better when someone tells them, "If you were REALLY submissive, you would do XYZ". They live in fear that they are doing it wrong, that they will be rejected from the new life that they have just discovered and get labeled as not really submissive within the community. It's gets used as a form of emotional blackmail. They end up feeling like they can't say "No". It's for that very reason that many of the predator types go looking for novices. (It's also for that reason that many novices leave WIITWD after their first experience)

OK, but that's the difference, isn't it? Them feeling like they can't say "no" isn't the same as them saying no. A bottom not knowing any better isn't the responsibility of the top. (I'm not denying that some tops take advantage of exactly that.) If we're talking about situations like you describe above where it's a case of she wanted to say no at the time but didn't for any of a thousand reasons running through her head, I'll be the first one to feel sorry with her for feeling like she was manipulated, even had her own lack of knowledge used against her, but it's not rape.

I agree that it's not rape. I was responding to labeling them as immature. Simply because I remember how I felt so pressured when I first started into WIITWD. I was lucky, I found an honest man.

But, we honestly don't if these women said "no" or not. My view is if they removed consent, regardless of far it has gone, it is rape.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 11:01:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I don't know if I'd label it as immaturity. The problem is, if these women are new to WIITWD, they may not realize that what he's doing is inappropriate or that they can say no.

If we're talking about situations like you describe above where it's a case of she wanted to say no at the time but didn't for any of a thousand reasons running through her head, I'll be the first one to feel sorry with her for feeling like she was manipulated, even had her own lack of knowledge used against her, but it's not rape.

Absolutely.

A woman getting manipulated in a situation where she doesn't want to be in may be unfortunate, but it's not rape.

The fact that women have the right to say no at any point in time is something that's currently drilled into women to the point where they sometimes overplay that right to shove off any personal responsibility for what happens on to men. Which then leads to men being taught not to assume a woman actually means "yes" even when she's said "yes" several times.

If they didn't vocalize the objections running through their head in a clear way, it's not rape, no matter how pressured they felt.

Men aren't mind readers, not even the sleazy ones that would take advantage of inexperienced people (not saying that was the case here). In the end, the duty of communication lays on both parties, and if one of the parties doesn't communicate, for whatever reason, it's their own fault when things don't end up working out the way they had hoped. I mean, barring a gun being held to their head, or fearing for life or safety some other way, there is NO excuse whatsoever these days for a woman not to be aware of the fact that she has the right to say no.

A woman who refused to take personal accountability for her own right and duty to make it clear whether she consents, or does not consent is a danger to this community, and should be shunned until she learns to step up and not put other people in SERIOUS jeopardy by refusing to be personal accountable for her own actions.

If a woman enters the BDSM community feeling like the negative consequences she imagines (like being labeled not a true submissive) prohibit her from saying "no", she's playing with other people's lives, and is dangerous. Rape accusations are VERY serious, as this thread has well proven. A woman who won't acknowledge that it's her duty to, at all times, make sure that she is actually consenting, after she made clear she was consenting, until she says she isn't anymore, is putting the life, the safety, and the future of EVERY man in the community at risk.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 11:05:48 AM

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DS,

If the guy is raping women then he must be stopped, but that is not something that you can do.
They need to decide.
Probably if there is more than one woman making a complaint, they will be listened to despite BDSM wrappings.

You are a bright guy.
I am sure you understand how baseless accusations caused people to be prosecuted (and killed) during the various literal witch-hunt eras.

I am not suggesting that he has not committed rape, but neither is there any verifiable proof.
Until there is at least a criminal complaint, this seems like a 'witch-hunt'.
Witch-hunts are horrible for the innocent hunted.
Reputations can be nearly irrevocably damaged.

As for this part:

quote:

This falls smack between YKINMK and "that's not cool."

that is a very subjective line.

You stated other people do.
That is reality.

And replying to other's comments: taking someone out of the potential pool of playing partners is not necessarily referring to having sex with them.
Many people publicly play with people and sex is never on the table to begin with.

Having said that, it does sound like you have some feelings that are making this an issue that will make you less than objective.

You don't have a way of resolving this.
There are two ways you can minimise the drama (as stated by others):
Stay away from those play parties or go and disengage yourself from all the unknowns that are creating the drama to begin with.

I think the first option will be easier for you.

edit: clarity

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 5/4/2013 11:07:30 AM >

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 11:11:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Edited to add: From what I saw on fetlife, this thing has exploded into a giant drama fest to the point that a new fetish was created to pick on the women who runs Scarlet Moons... any particular reason you felt it necessary to spread out the drama more by bringing it here?

Yeah, actually, she's the one fueling the drama. The originator of the term has posted the origin and meaning of what the code is that she is claiming is a hate group against her. It's a pretty straight forward explanation of where the term started.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 11:34:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Edited to add: From what I saw on fetlife, this thing has exploded into a giant drama fest to the point that a new fetish was created to pick on the women who runs Scarlet Moons... any particular reason you felt it necessary to spread out the drama more by bringing it here?

Yeah, actually, she's the one fueling the drama. The originator of the term has posted the origin and meaning of what the code is that she is claiming is a hate group against her. It's a pretty straight forward explanation of where the term started.

I don't really care who's fueling the drama. I just noted that there was drama, and I'm wondering why it's being brought here.

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I am your sinner
And your whore
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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 12:05:00 PM

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You know more than the rest of us, and you definitely know yourself better than any of us. Break it down into the sections that bother you, 1) This guy is likely a rapist or sexual predator, 2) The issue is being handled in a particular way by the group, 3) Law Enforcement has not yet been contacted, 4) Your concern for doing what you feel is right.

Then apply your own moral code to them, prioritize them and do what you feel is right. In the end it will have to be something you can live with internally, and any fall out will just have to be handled regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Personally, I have dealt with similar but handled it in a different way because I am a primitive sort ;).

It is a tough balancing act sometimes, but often the toughest things are.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 12:07:29 PM

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My advice would be to stay out of it, Steven. I think your motives are probably good, I don't buy this is about jealousy, I have read a lot of your other posts and they seem very level headed. Some of the posts on here bother me, they smack me too much of a mentality I have seen other places, that what goes on in our community stays in our community, we should circle the wagons and such, and I find that a problem. There were troubles with that in the gay leather community many,many years ago, where there were bad tops who basically were raping and abusing people, and the attitude was that no one had the right to handle it (It was, some of the first gay leather groups kind of took matters into their own hands, and they would publicize lists of names of 'bad tops' to try and warn people, it had gotten that bad).

I am troubled, though, that these accusations are on fetlife yet nothing was done about it. If this guy is stepping over the line, if he is raping women, then a post on fetlife isn't enough, someone needed to follow through with the women in question, if they really thought they had been raped then they should be working with someone to file formal charges. The duty I am afraid lies with them, because only they know what is going on. The guy could be guilty of nothing more then breaching boundaries he shouldn't, where he thought he had consent and didn't, it can get confused, we don't know. If you are really concerned, Steven, I would work with your sub to find out if there is a way to get the women who claim rape to file formal charges, the last thing the community needs is someone running around masking rape with BD/SM. It is hard to get people to file, the cops and DA's either are on one side, where you can't consent to anything, or on the other hand, they seem to be "oh, you are one of those freaks, you got what you were looking for", and both are bad. If you can get multiple ones to corroborate what the guy is doing, that would genuinely protect both other women and the community as well. Acting on claims on fetlife, while with good intentions, is all over the place.

I think the woman who runs those parties, while she might think she is doing the right thing by making the statement about the guy, isn't all the bright when it comes to real world issues,either. There is a difference between reality and perceptions, and by saying what she did, basically this guy is my friend and he is going, and you don't like it, don't go, she is telling others "I don't care about what you think, I don't care about your concerns, he is still going". The perception there is there potentially could be something going on here and that she is ignoring it; it may be her right as she is the one running the party, but she also runs the risk that people will get so disgusted thinking she is covering up for him, that it will die...it is hard with allegations like this, but for example, if someone is accused of abusing children and is in a position where children are around, you don't sit there and say "okay, we'll wait until there is proof until we do something", they will suspend someone, take them out of the way of being with children, until they can investigate and figure out if there is fire there (it is something the church couldn't quite figure out, even now). She might have been better served by telling her friend to cool it until things could be worked out; I admire someone for standing up for a friend, but unless she is absolutely certain nothing happened with him, she is putting herself in for a lot of problems by doing what she did, and he is even less of a friend, for not knowing the position he is putting her in by not voluntarily backing off.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 12:30:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

I am troubled, though, that these accusations are on fetlife yet nothing was done about it. If this guy is stepping over the line, if he is raping women, then a post on fetlife isn't enough, someone needed to follow through with the women in question, if they really thought they had been raped then they should be working with someone to file formal charges.

That's where I'm at, too. I think the community needs to hear both sides. If the LA community had done more than trying to be politically correct and had actually done some investigating of their their own, it might not have come down to 8 women being raped in 6 months.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 1:13:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

I am troubled, though, that these accusations are on fetlife yet nothing was done about it. If this guy is stepping over the line, if he is raping women, then a post on fetlife isn't enough, someone needed to follow through with the women in question, if they really thought they had been raped then they should be working with someone to file formal charges.

That's where I'm at, too. I think the community needs to hear both sides. If the LA community had done more than trying to be politically correct and had actually done some investigating of their their own, it might not have come down to 8 women being raped in 6 months.

This is something that bothers me as well.

The idea of someone raping women and getting away with it and being able to do same again and again, is horrific.

But on the other side: what if he didn't.
Then a reputation is trashed.
It is sometimes too easy to make a presumption of guilt under where there's smoke, there's fire, but going back to the whole witchcraft analogy: there were plenty of people; groups of people, who accused one person or another of witchcraft, and we all know how that turned out.

People who are in a position to act, should do so so that allegations can be properly investigated, and prosecuted if evidence supports such.

edit: clarity

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 5/4/2013 1:14:14 PM >

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 1:21:22 PM

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Sort of a fast reply.........

The way that I was brought up in the community was under the concept of "House Rules". That means whoever has the event at their house makes the rules. I don't know how Scarlet Moons runs their events, but unless the "community" is actually renting her space under the group name, the group doesn't have the right to dictate who can or can not be there. Like it or not, she's the host and she has the right to put any stipulations (or lack thereof) of any activities that can happen on her property and who is and is not welcome. The "community" doesn't get to override her decisions on this with the exception of making their preferences known by walking with their feet.

As a host, yes, you have a responsibility to your guests to provide a safe environment. Even Steven is saying that none of these incidents happened at the parties being held in her home. They happened elsewhere when people were conducting their private activities and nobody really knows what happened there except the people who were present. There's nothing proving any of the allegations, so other than the host's own investigation, I don't see anything tangible for the host to rely on as proof. Would you really want to be banned just because somebody said something about you? What if a few somebody's got together, decided that 'hit it and quit it' wasn't <cough> conduct becoming of a Dom <cough> and decided to twist some stories a little?

I don't really think the host in question is handling things in the best way. There are some different things that I would had done and some I'd have avoided. I think it would have been enough to say that the matter was under investigation and ask for those with PROOF to come forward.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/4/2013 1:29:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Even Steven is saying that none of these incidents happened at the parties being held in her home.

But, in at least one case, they met the man at her party and the hostess "sold" the man in question.

quote:

Would you really want to be banned just because somebody said something about you?

Some venues in our community will temporarily not allow someone to attend an event while they contemplate an an accusation. In which case, both sides are out until the organizer had heard both sides and any background evidence.

_____________________________

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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