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RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 8:43:34 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
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The believability issue is the nasty part about the whole thing.

Trayvon Martin could not testify as to what happened, so his version of the story had to be told by others.

And unfortunately, their narratives were full of even more holes than Zimmerman's.

Martin's mother claimed that he had made it all the way to the doorstep of the residence, in one statement... that makes him look like the aggressor if a few minutes later, he was fighting around the corner, instead of simply going in the house and locking the door. Then she canged that sstory, which doesn't look good in court.

Martin's girlfriend said she heard the gunshots on the telephone, even though the time line made that impossible... and then changed her story more than once, lessening her credibility as to the 'get off me' assertion.

The coroner changed his story about the possibility of Martin moving after being shot, and bout the tox screen

The neighbor who was sure that the 'man in the red and black patterned shirt was on top of the little boy', is also sure she heard 3 distinct shots. Pop!, Pop!, Pop!. After it came out to be impossible, she too altered her testimony.

This kind of inconsistency could look bad to some jurors.

On the other hand, as more and more reliable witnesses testified as to verifiable facts, Zimmerman's overall version got more and more support. It was proven that he never said the N word on the phone call. It was proven that he did indeed have some injuries consistent with his story of being punched. The neighbor who said that Martin was on top had no holes in his story.

That kind of consistency could look persuasive to some juries.

Martin had no choice as to who was going to speak for him after his death, and he had no control over how well they would do so.




quote:

ORIGINAL: BBBTBW


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana



1-We don't know that Z "took the matter into his own hands."All available evidence suggests that he was attacked. To suggest that Z acted in a vigilante fashion is to manufacture false facts.
2-Last I checked, as far as I know, in America there are lots of ways to respond to someone following you,none of which involve assault (or, to placate the whackos and hairsplitters, A&B). You can go home (The easiest and best solution), call the cops (What most citizens would do), try to lose the pursuer, or just go about your damn business (Cuz, you know, it's a public area-Z has as much right to be there as M.And vice versa).
The one thing you don't do is assault the person.The second you do that you've shifted from possible victim to, depending on the nature of the attack, felon.

Here's what I wonder?
Had Martin had been a white kid, would people be howling about how Z's civil liberties were being trampled, a poor latin trying to do the right thing, crushed underneath the jackboot of an overzealous prosecution?
I wonder...




1. We only have Mr. Zimmerman's account of his initial encounter with Mr. Martin which makes it one-sided and biased.

2. Mr. Zimmerman instigated this encounter by not complying with what he was asked to do by the 911 operator. Had he complied, this whole incident would never have happened. There is evidence to prove that.

3. The fact that he followed Mr. Martin regardless of the instructions he was given makes him a vigilante. Why is it so hard to consider that Mr. Martin might have felt threatened? Who is to say that Mr. Zimmerman didn't come at Mr. Martin first? There are too many holes and lies in Mr. Zimmerman's account of things to make believable on any level.




_____________________________

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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to BBBTBW)
Profile   Post #: 1781
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 8:50:14 AM   
truckinslave


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A boy is dead because he trained in the martial arts and decided to attack an armed man.
Bad decision.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 1782
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 8:52:17 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Yawwwwwwwwwwn
he made that decision, he took that choice... and followed



And Trayvon made the decision to attack someone and continue doing injury to him for nearly a minute as George screamed for help.

If Trayvon had ceased his attack or if George had been able to escape, he'd still be alive.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 1783
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 8:54:01 AM   
mnottertail


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OH, he ceased it alright. That is one actual FACT we have. Now, the notion that he started the attack is fanciful and fanciful only.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 1784
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 8:55:09 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

A boy is dead because he trained in the martial arts and decided to attack an armed man.
Bad decision.



Do you think that George and Trayvon were in the same MMA classes or what?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 1785
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 8:58:41 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Yawwwwwwwwwwn
he made that decision, he took that choice... and followed



And Trayvon made the decision to attack someone and continue doing injury to him for nearly a minute as George screamed for help.

If Trayvon had ceased his attack or if George had been able to escape, he'd still be alive.

of course he had no reason to stand his ground or defend himself against Zimmy did he.... you have all that proof n stuff



_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

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Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 1786
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 8:59:49 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

A boy is dead because he trained in the martial arts and decided to attack an armed man.
Bad decision.

Zimmerman made the first move...

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 1787
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 8:59:54 AM   
truckinslave


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Joined: 6/16/2004
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quote:

They'd be lawyering up,


The biggest takeaway in this for me, other than an absolute confirmation of my frequently classroom-given advice that: "There are no winners in a gunfight. Some lose more than others, but nobody wins", is the absolute disingenuous havoc the persecution will try to make of any discrepancy in statements made by the defendant.

Never talk to the police. Never answer questions. Your only response after a shooting, regardless of the circumstances, should be : "He tried to kill me". Give them nothing.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 1788
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 9:06:41 AM   
MasterCaneman


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Joined: 3/21/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

They'd be lawyering up,


The biggest takeaway in this for me, other than an absolute confirmation of my frequently classroom-given advice that: "There are no winners in a gunfight. Some lose more than others, but nobody wins", is the absolute disingenuous havoc the persecution will try to make of any discrepancy in statements made by the defendant.

Never talk to the police. Never answer questions. Your only response after a shooting, regardless of the circumstances, should be : "He tried to kill me". Give them nothing.

The only thing to say after something like that is your name, and that you're invoking your 5th Amendment rights and you want a lawyer. Accept the fact that no matter how 'righteous' the shoot was, you will be arrested and confined until they sort it all out. And this isn't me talking, it's what my club's lawyer told us. Don't say a thing until there's a credentialled lawyer present, even if it means cooling your heels overnight. If you must say anything, inquire about what the Habeas Corpus is and are you being charged or not? If not, then why are you being held?

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 1789
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 9:08:56 AM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
fr.


Free Zimmerman
from you.


_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 1790
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 9:13:26 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

A boy is dead because he trained in the martial arts and decided to attack an armed man.
Bad decision.

I don't know where you got that he trained in MA but if he did, he forgot everything.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 1791
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 9:20:02 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Yawwwwwwwwwwn
he made that decision, he took that choice... and followed



And Trayvon made the decision to attack someone and continue doing injury to him for nearly a minute as George screamed for help.

If Trayvon had ceased his attack or if George had been able to escape, he'd still be alive.

of course he had no reason to stand his ground or defend himself against Zimmy did he.... you have all that proof n stuff




Judging by the amount of evidence shown in trial, no Trayvon didn't have a reason to stand his ground. Even the pro-prosecution judge wouldn't allow the aggressor instructions to be given to the jury because of the complete nonexistence of evidence of George provoking anything.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 1792
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 9:23:11 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

They'd be lawyering up,


The biggest takeaway in this for me, other than an absolute confirmation of my frequently classroom-given advice that: "There are no winners in a gunfight. Some lose more than others, but nobody wins", is the absolute disingenuous havoc the persecution will try to make of any discrepancy in statements made by the defendant.

Never talk to the police. Never answer questions. Your only response after a shooting, regardless of the circumstances, should be : "He tried to kill me". Give them nothing.

The only thing to say after something like that is your name, and that you're invoking your 5th Amendment rights and you want a lawyer. Accept the fact that no matter how 'righteous' the shoot was, you will be arrested and confined until they sort it all out. And this isn't me talking, it's what my club's lawyer told us. Don't say a thing until there's a credentialled lawyer present, even if it means cooling your heels overnight. If you must say anything, inquire about what the Habeas Corpus is and are you being charged or not? If not, then why are you being held?


Massad Ayoob teaches you should tell law enforcement 3 things.

1). That you want to sign the complaint.
2) To point out where any evidence and witnesses are.
3) That you will cooperate fully in 24 hours after you have obtained legal representation.

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 1793
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 9:23:42 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

My 'idea' of justice says that some nutjob should not be allowed, in any civilized society, to take it upon himself to implement justice by his own individual estimation.


Fuck the idea that you get to define "nutjob"




I didn't actually 'define' nutjob. Fuck the notion that every opinion ventured automatically equates to a 'definition.' Other than such assertion by nutjobs, that is. What is it about everybody taking anything I say as a 'definition'? I had no idea I carried so much power.

quote:

Fuck a society that does not allow self defense


Which such self defense is apparently denied Martin, and you cheer heartily for that particular instance of self defense being denied, not by a jury, but by a verifiable nut case. Where is your brain?

Here's the news, Mr. 45-strapped-to-ankle-before-putting-shoes-on-nutjob: I've already pointed out that a high profile instance of insanity by a nutjob brings almost all the nutjobs of society to the fore in defense of their own kind. Thanks for proving the point.

This isn't about guns. I know too many people who lack disdain of using their brain as a matter of course, whom some of them happen to own guns.

It's not about 'racism,' much as some would cheer for it to be. Zimmerman's long record of harassing, assaulting, 'following,' or otherwise being every menace to society shows his long history of being an "equal opportunity danger" to everyday citizens of whatever demographic.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/17/2013 9:31:33 AM >

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 1794
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 9:26:28 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
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And speaking of Massad Ayoob,

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2013/07/16/zimmerman-verdict-part-2-the-unarmed-teen/

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 1795
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 9:38:04 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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Edwynn
Nutjob referred to Mnotter - not you.


quote:


It's not about 'racism,' much as some would cheer for it to be. Zimmerman's long record of harassing, assaulting, 'following,' or otherwise being every menace to society shows his long history of being an "equal opportunity danger" to everyday citizens of whatever demographic.



As for this- again - it simply isn't true. Are you aware that Zimmerman had a history of working with blacks?
"He and a black friend opened up an insurance office in a Florida..."
"He'd engaged in notably un-racist behaviour such as taking a black girl to his high-school prom..."
"Not only does he have black relatives, he has reportedly donated his time to tutor black children."
"He launched a campaign to help a homeless black man who was beaten up by a white kid."

He's a democrat and he voted for Obama. (Personally I hope he learned his lesson.)

Finally, no one is denying that Martin would have had an opportunity for self defense. But the only evidence in the trial was that Martin initiated arms length contact AND threw the first punch.

Edwyn, really. Can you honestly say you'd be this motivated if it were black on black violence?

If a black man A had approached black man b and asked him demeaning questions.
If black man B had pushed black man A - and then swung on him.
If black man B continued the assault by throwing him to the ground and beating him up
If black man A pulled a gun out and shot him in self defense.

You think about that in your heart of hearts. Because statistics say - you wouldn't be. Look at the number of deaths in chicago that go unprotested.

Whereas my position - and the position of Power, Raikin, and most of the others would be unchanged. There isn't enough evidence to convict black man A.
And my position would be the same regardless of the colors of the people involved.

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 7/17/2013 9:45:17 AM >

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 1796
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 9:45:48 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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And shiteater referred to you.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/17/2013 9:51:40 AM >


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 1797
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 9:53:15 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:


It's not about 'racism,' much as some would cheer for it to be. Zimmerman's long record of harassing, assaulting, 'following,' or otherwise being every menace to society shows his long history of being an "equal opportunity danger" to everyday citizens of whatever demographic.


As for this- again - it simply isn't true. Are you aware that Zimmerman had a history of working with blacks?



Thanks for reminding us again of your infinite incapacity to properly absorb even the simplest point.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/17/2013 9:54:49 AM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 1798
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 10:00:19 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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~FR


http://www.examiner.com/article/ignored-by-media-zimmerman-voted-for-obama-tutored-black-kids

Breitbart.com reported almost six months ago:

Not only was Zimmerman not a racist – he had a black business partner, has Afro-Peruvian roots, and helped out underprivileged black kids in his neighborhood – he also was a supporter of the very president who would later slander him by innuendo.

As Robert, George’s brother, told me, George is "a registered Democrat. He registered as a Hispanic. He kind of did some internal family campaigning for Obama."


Ahem

Breitbart?

The Afro-Peruvian thing has already been explained.

Since we have the claims Z did all these things as "proof" of his love for black people, here is a counterpoint...

I will be forever unimpressed by the fact that Zimmerman tutored young black children, took a black girl to prom, had black friends or acquaintances or whatever, because I can separate the attitudes that Zimmerman has for black children he knows, and even black women he doesn't, while also considering that he has many racist, preconceived ideas about black men who are strangers to him, that scare him, and make him call the police.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brittney-bullock/zimmerman-jury-race_b_3606262.html

People may not like what she had to say... may not like the sentiment at all. May hate the idea that many people are outraged by the reaction to the verdict....

Its not going away folks.

I said earlier... public opinion is a fucking bitch... and it seems she is pissed.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 7/17/2013 10:06:49 AM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 1799
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/17/2013 10:05:08 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Saw this on Facebook today. Not sure I totally agree, but the perspective intrigued me.

Dear George Zimmerman... For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a Black man in America.

You will feel people stare at you. Judging you for what you think are unfair reasons. You will lose out on getting jobs for something you feel is outside of your control. You will believe yourself to be an upstanding citizen and wonder why people choose to not see that. People will cross the street when they see you coming. They will call you hurtful names. It will drive you so insane some days that you'll want to scream at the top of your lungs. But you will have to wake up the next day, put on firm look and push through life.

I bet you never thought that by shooting a black male you'd end up inheriting all of his struggles. Enjoy your "freedom."


A croak of racist crap if there ever was.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 1800
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