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The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 7:47:05 AM

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Hello all,

I found this article interesting. It suggests that there is proof that Jesus Christ was a fictional character and was deliberately created by the ancient Roman aristocracy.

From the article:
Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire

I thought you all might find it a worthwhile read. There is a symposium in London in a couple of weeks. It sounds like an interesting experience.

best,
sunshine

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 10:12:30 AM

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The Gospel of Judas, just recently found and authenticated, has the theologians pretty busy right now.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 10:43:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello all,

I found this article interesting. It suggests that there is proof that Jesus Christ was a fictional character and was deliberately created by the ancient Roman aristocracy.

I think that might be a little overblown. I think the evidence is overwhelming that Christianity began as one of a number of mystery cults which were quite common in the Roman Empire at the time. Clearly almost everything in the NT about a person named Jesus is fiction but I think there must have been a guy who all of this was based on. A guy, a cult leader in a period when numerous doomsday cults existed in Judea not a deity or third of a deity.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 4:48:14 PM

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I think it has been pretty well understood for a long time that Christianity is a synthetic religion that combines an extension of sacrificial Judaism (courtesy of Paul) with various pagan streams. Compared to the volume of study establishing this, Atwill's psychological warfare twist strikes me as a very big house built on a very small foundation. But in any case, it seems to me a fundamental error to think that religious myths have to be historically true. The truths conveyed by religious myths do not depend on the historicity of the characters.

K.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 6:06:48 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
It suggests that there is proof that Jesus Christ was a fictional character and was deliberately created by the ancient Roman aristocracy.

I suppose the next thing ya are gonna tell me is that Santa Claus isn't real either!..

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 6:45:15 PM

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FR

My problem with Atwill's assertion is Judaism. The Messiah is prophecy. Old Testament prophecy.

How could this go unnoticed in the most scrutinised books of all time? "Many of the parallels are conceptual or poetic, so they aren't all immediately obvious. After all, the authors did not want the average believer to see what they were doing, but they did want the alert reader to see it. An educated Roman in the ruling class would probably have recognised the literary game being played." Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

It's comical in one respect. 2000 years of Judaism does not deny he existed. The Pharisees and Sadducee, educated people, did not deny he existed. It would be the Mother of conspiracies for this assertion to be correct. All the conspiracy theories: The Maine, it did blow up in Havana Harbor. 9/11, the planes did strike the towers. JFK was assassinated. Each holding something tangible.

So, who was the guy crucified? What happened to the body? Or is he saying no one saw anything because it's absolute fiction?

Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

Hell, I heard that an attorney said he can indict a ham sandwich.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 10/9/2013 6:47:04 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 7:11:25 PM

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FR
There's nothing new about speculations and proposals
that Jesus never existed. The hows and the whys are
varied. Atwill's theory sounds like Oliver Stone presents
The Story of Jesus. Very far fetched.

I think Jesus did exist and he had followers who kept
and spread his teachings after his death. Christianity
thrived for a lot of reasons. It appealed strongly to
women and the poor, it emphasized community,
it was merciful and promised forgiveness and a new
beginning, it gave people hope and a deity that was
personal and human in a way no other deity had probably
ever been before. It also evolved as it spread.

That the narrative of the life of Jesus was shaped by others
is a given. But to conclude that he never existed is a great
stretch and no doubt a good bit of wishful thinking on the
part of some.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 8:19:11 PM

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Good arguments of yours to which I would like to add another puzzle piece.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

FR

My problem with Atwill's assertion is Judaism. The Messiah is prophecy. Old Testament prophecy.

Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

When Pontius Pilate was assigned prefecture of the Roman province of Judaea, his private correspondence reveals this was no honor. It was almost a slap in the face to be placed in governorship of what the Romans considered a backwater province. Except for the tax revenues collected for Tiberius Caesar, a few natural resources, and being a geographical trade hub, Judaea was insignificant to Graeco-Roman civilization, more trouble than it was worth. The pagan Romans as a whole had no interest in the Greek-Aramaic-Hebrew writings of the New & Old Testaments. (It wasn't until 1611 that British King James had The Holy Bible compiled & translated in completed form.)

There isn't even the remotest possibility that such an alleged Roman conspiracy, much less one involving the Caesars, could have ever materialized, been executed and sustained over a period spanning at least 1500 years. This is a mere figment of Atwill's over-active imagination.

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< Message edited by TigressLily -- 10/9/2013 8:27:43 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 8:22:12 PM

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Jesus is just alright with me.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 8:37:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

FR

My problem with Atwill's assertion is Judaism. The Messiah is prophecy. Old Testament prophecy.

How could this go unnoticed in the most scrutinised books of all time? "Many of the parallels are conceptual or poetic, so they aren't all immediately obvious. After all, the authors did not want the average believer to see what they were doing, but they did want the alert reader to see it. An educated Roman in the ruling class would probably have recognised the literary game being played." Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

It's comical in one respect. 2000 years of Judaism does not deny he existed. The Pharisees and Sadducee, educated people, did not deny he existed. It would be the Mother of conspiracies for this assertion to be correct. All the conspiracy theories: The Maine, it did blow up in Havana Harbor. 9/11, the planes did strike the towers. JFK was assassinated. Each holding something tangible.

So, who was the guy crucified? What happened to the body? Or is he saying no one saw anything because it's absolute fiction?

Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

Hell, I heard that an attorney said he can indict a ham sandwich.

I'm quite familiar with Jewish scholarship on the Messiah. No mainstream Jewish sect acknowledges that a person named Jesus ever even existed much less was their Messiah.

The facts are the Synoptic Gospels fulfill a standard set of requirements for a mystery cult, virgin birth, successive mysteries to serve as initiations, resurrection etc., not terribly dissimilar from the cults of Zoroaster or Dionysus. It seems likely that Christianity started off as one of a number of doomsday cults that were popping up all of Judea at the time (the Dead Sea Scrolls come from one such group). The Gospel of John was likely written for that audience. It contains details consistent with Jewish tradition and laws of the era. The Synoptic Gospels are pretty clearly written for a Greco-Roman audience.

BTW the complete Bible was assembled long before 1611. The Catholic Vulgate dates to the 4th Century CE and is based on Old Latin versions of the bible.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 9:00:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'm quite familiar with Jewish scholarship on the Messiah. No mainstream Jewish sect acknowledges that a person named Jesus ever even existed much less was their Messiah.

Although it may be difficult to penetrate the layers of tradition and legend in order to arrive at any certainty about the details of the life and ministry of Jesus, there is no valid reason for doubting his historical reality or assuming him to be a purely mythical figure. ~Jewish Virtual Library

K.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 9:45:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'm quite familiar with Jewish scholarship on the Messiah. No mainstream Jewish sect acknowledges that a person named Jesus ever even existed much less was their Messiah.

Although it may be difficult to penetrate the layers of tradition and legend in order to arrive at any certainty about the details of the life and ministry of Jesus, there is no valid reason for doubting his historical reality or assuming him to be a purely mythical figure. ~Jewish Virtual Library

K.

So like I said. Why do you always think you can go find some beginners explanation for something and it is the end all of something?

The above says, nothing in the Gospels is accurate, and we know most of it is patently untrue. Jews do not acknowledge Jesus as anything. There are no Jewish scripture with him (this despite the fact the Books of Maccabee were written within a century of the period in question).

But you will base your entire bizarre argument on a throwaway beginners explanation.

Let's see what a rabbi has to say:
http://ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm

Now I'll await your pathetic flailing trying to prop up the existence of Jesus despite absolutely no evidence what so ever existing anywhere at all.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 10:02:33 PM

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I think it is probably true that there is a 50/50 chance that Jesus never existed. The Roman didn't write of him while he was healing the sick, making the blind see and turning water into wine, let alone walk on water.

Plus, wasn't there a further modern discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls that the Israeli govt. continues to hide and didn't these contain writings that said Jesus didn't didn't die on the cross but was given just enough strychnine by his followers to knock him out while the Romans then convinced was dead, allowed his followers to take down his body where soon he regained consciousness and...the rest his history as they say ?

Plus, wasn't there in history a number of so called messiahs in other foreign cultures that played the same role ? Suggesting they were all propaganda figures used to subjugate the people.

I am not sure about any of it and regard the story of Jesus as merely a character of the past whose role was as moral philosopher.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 10:06:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

FR

My problem with Atwill's assertion is Judaism. The Messiah is prophecy. Old Testament prophecy.

How could this go unnoticed in the most scrutinised books of all time? "Many of the parallels are conceptual or poetic, so they aren't all immediately obvious. After all, the authors did not want the average believer to see what they were doing, but they did want the alert reader to see it. An educated Roman in the ruling class would probably have recognised the literary game being played." Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

It's comical in one respect. 2000 years of Judaism does not deny he existed. The Pharisees and Sadducee, educated people, did not deny he existed. It would be the Mother of conspiracies for this assertion to be correct. All the conspiracy theories: The Maine, it did blow up in Havana Harbor. 9/11, the planes did strike the towers. JFK was assassinated. Each holding something tangible.

So, who was the guy crucified? What happened to the body? Or is he saying no one saw anything because it's absolute fiction?

Atwill maintains he can demonstrate that "the Roman Caesars left us a kind of puzzle literature that was meant to be solved by future generations, and the solution to that puzzle is 'We invented Jesus Christ, and we're proud of it.'"

Hell, I heard that an attorney said he can indict a ham sandwich.

I'm quite familiar with Jewish scholarship on the Messiah. No mainstream Jewish sect acknowledges that a person named Jesus ever even existed much less was their Messiah.

The facts are the Synoptic Gospels fulfill a standard set of requirements for a mystery cult, virgin birth, successive mysteries to serve as initiations, resurrection etc., not terribly dissimilar from the cults of Zoroaster or Dionysus. It seems likely that Christianity started off as one of a number of doomsday cults that were popping up all of Judea at the time (the Dead Sea Scrolls come from one such group). The Gospel of John was likely written for that audience. It contains details consistent with Jewish tradition and laws of the era. The Synoptic Gospels are pretty clearly written for a Greco-Roman audience.

BTW the complete Bible was assembled long before 1611. The Catholic Vulgate dates to the 4th Century CE and is based on Old Latin versions of the bible.

The bible wasn't published and widely translated until after Gutenberg.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 10:08:20 PM

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The significance of the 1611 Authorized Version of the King James Bible containing the 66 Books of Scripture is not to dispute that there weren't other versions of Bibles extant prior to then. What I should have emphasized was how this ties in with having a finished foundational work from which to compare both Old & New Testaments for the fulfillment of Messianic prophecies to have been embodied by just one man who ever walked the face of this planet by the name of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ (the Anointed One).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The Synoptic Gospels are pretty clearly written for a Greco-Roman audience.

BTW the complete Bible was assembled long before 1611. The Catholic Vulgate dates to the 4th Century CE and is based on Old Latin versions of the bible.

Mea Culpa DK, for I come from a Protestant background and fundamentally speaking, KJV is the only Holy Bible we Protestants universally recognize. I have great respect for the many contributions the Catholic Church has made to uphold and preserve Christian traditions, from a theological (despite our differences), scholarly historical, and archaeological perspective. The original languages as translated into the Greek are what were sourced for KJV's translation into English by the team of scholars assembled from 1604-1611, not translated from Latin of previously translated renditions.

There are many versions which may be considered complete works or culminations unto themselves. The followers of John Wycliffe (The Wycliffe Bible) undertook the first complete English translations of the Christian scriptures in the 15th century, which pre-dated the printing press and had to be circulated in manuscript form. It was, however, banned in 1409. In 1525, William Tyndale, an English contemporary of Martin Luther, undertook a translation of the New Testament, which was the first printed Bible in English. This was the basis for the Great Bible commissioned in 1539 during the reign of King Henry VIII, but it was an incomplete work on the Old Testament. This was the first "authorized version" issued by the Church of England.

I have provided this background info for the sole purpose of elucidating why I attached such importance to making 1611 a benchmark demarcation point. No ancient Roman nor Roman Catholic could have foreseen these developments in a future timeline.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 10:40:30 PM

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I'll be blunt, beyond the historical stuff the rest of that was nonsense. Some English speaking protestants view the abridged KJV as important, no one actually uses the unabridged 1611 version much anymore. However there are many other languages on Earth. For instance German protestants use Luther's translation from 1534 and French protestants use the 1910 version of the Segond translation.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 10:53:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So like I said. Why do you always think you can go find some beginners explanation for something and it is the end all of something?

The above says, nothing in the Gospels is accurate, and we know most of it is patently untrue. Jews do not acknowledge Jesus as anything. There are no Jewish scripture with him (this despite the fact the Books of Maccabee were written within a century of the period in question).

But you will base your entire bizarre argument on a throwaway beginners explanation.

Let's see what a rabbi has to say:
http://ohr.edu/ask/ask00j.htm

Now I'll await your pathetic flailing trying to prop up the existence of Jesus despite absolutely no evidence what so ever existing anywhere at all.

See? With no snarky commentary, I simply quote a respectable Jewish source that disagrees with your alleged "knowledge of Jewish scholarship," and you turn around and throw a bag of shit at me.

When early Popes ordered that the Talmud be burned, there was dispute (and there remains dispute today) about whether or not the offending passages actually referred to Jesus.

Notably influential on later Jewish responses was the defence of Yechiel of Paris (1240) that a passage about an individual named Yeshu in the Talmud was not a reference to the Christian Jesus, though at the same time Yechiel also conceded that another reference to Yeshu was. ~Source

Starting in the 13th century, manuscripts of the Talmud were sometimes altered in response to the criticisms made during the disputations, and in response to orders from the Christian church. Existing manuscripts were sometimes altered (for example, by erasure) and new manuscripts often omitted the passages entirely. Peter Schäfer compared several editions and documented some alterations as illustrated in the following table: ~Source

Commenting on this period of history, Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz, hailed by Time magazine as a "once-in-a-millennium scholar," writes in The Essential Talmud (see "Look Inside" page 105):

Wherever the Talmud makes derogatory references to Jesus or to Christianity in general, the comment was completely erased, and the name of Christ was systematically removed, even when the reference was not negative.

Additionally, no less a figure than Maimonides mentions Jesus in several places in Mishneh Torah and Epistle to Yemen (see here).

And since you have now expanded your claim beyond "Jewish scholarship," allow me to point out that arguments against the historicity of Jesus based on the inventions and prevarications of the early Church lose much of their shine when confronted by the conspicuously non-canonical scrolls found at Nag Hammadi.

K.

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< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/9/2013 11:36:10 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/9/2013 10:56:41 PM

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I can't remember the name of the documentary but, some years ago, on the history channel, there was a guy that claimed that he had found Jesus' burial chamber (after the "ressurection"). He made a pretty good case for his assertions.

Whether or not Jesus was any more a son of God than you or I was not part of the hypothesis; just that he did exiast.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 12:23:58 AM

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Of the 3 versions of The Holy Bible I have read, I always go back to my family's 50-year-old KJV which has inscribed within "based on 1611 translation," and is the most commonly used edition that "follows the standard text of 1769, edited by Benjamin Blayney at Oxford" where "the New Testament was translated from Greek, the Old Testament was translated from Hebrew text, while the Apocrypha were translated from the Greek and Latin." Another KJV I've had on hand for 10 years is also "based on 1611 translation." Just saying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'll be blunt, beyond the historical stuff the rest of that was nonsense. Some English speaking protestants view the abridged KJV as important, no one actually uses the unabridged 1611 version much anymore. However there are many other languages on Earth. For instance German protestants use Luther's translation from 1534 and French protestants use the 1910 version of the Segond translation.

Why wouldn't non-English speaking persons use their own linguistic versions? This doesn't change the fact that the full extent of the fulfillment of Messianic prophecies was made available at that point in time.

Old Testament Scriptures That Describe The Coming Messiah

The Messianic Prophecy (paraphrased) Where the prophecy appears in the Old Testament (written between 1450 BC and 430BC) Jesus’ fulfillment of the prophecy in the New Testament (written between 45 and 95 AD)
The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 John 19:31-33,36
Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24
The Messiah will accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57
The Messiah will be hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 John 15:23-25
The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21
The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22
The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30
Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah Psalm 72:10,11 Matthew 2:1-11
The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head cornerstone” Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16 Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8
The Messiah will be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 Luke 1:32,33
The Messiah will be a born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16
The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31
The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah) Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38
The Messiah will be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15
The Messiah will be killed Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30
The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14
The Messiah will be buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42
The Messiah will be crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33
The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13
The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at “. . . year of the LORD’s favor”) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world
The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26 Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10
The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45

Source http://clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml
See also http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/messianic.htm

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_____________________________

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Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
She Moves in Mysterious Ways . . . On Your Knees, Boy. ~ U2

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 5:05:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I think it has been pretty well understood for a long time that Christianity is a synthetic religion that combines an extension of sacrificial Judaism (courtesy of Paul) with various pagan streams. Compared to the volume of study establishing this, Atwill's psychological warfare twist strikes me as a very big house built on a very small foundation. But in any case, it seems to me a fundamental error to think that religious myths have to be historically true. The truths conveyed by religious myths do not depend on the historicity of the characters.

K.

The historicity of major religious figureheads such as Jesus or Mohammed is a matter to be determined by scholarship. While I am sure many people have interesting contributions to make to that debate, it's hardly going to be resolved one way or the other on these boards.

For me, the claim that "[t]he truths conveyed by religious myths do not depend on the historicity of the characters' is far more interesting and relevant. Does this claim stand up to scrutiny?

What might Christianity look like without the figure of Jesus? Or Islam without the figure of Mohammed? Would the claims or 'truths' of either religion still stand? If these figureheads turn out to be fictional or semi-fictional characters, what impact does that have on the foundation texts of those religions? Could believers still present these texts as the 'unedited words of God/Allah/deity of your choice'?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/10/2013 5:08:59 AM >

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(in reply to Kirata)

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