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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 1:21:38 PM   
EligibleOwner


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Thank you.

(in reply to SailingBum)
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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 1:38:09 PM   
ARIES83


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Ishtar,
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Ishtar,
Where do you fall on the subject of, dominant/submissive associations to some degree accompanying acts such as giving/receiving penetration?


I think dominance is related to power and influence over others and not act driven.

For example (yup I'm using Kana again, he's just going to become my example for everything) Kana mentioned on this thread that lw wouldn't take well to a man desiring to be penetrated anally. So if Kana could manage to command lw to do so anyways, without her thereupon feeling less secure with him as her partner, I'd consider that an act of sheer dominance.


"an act of sheer dominance..."
If an act can be associated with dominance or submission, then ipso facto its of course possible for an act to carry a dominant/submissive association.
So is that a "yes" with a "but"?

To be honest, when this argument comes up it doesn't really convince me... The idea that "sure the slave is fucking my butt, but I command the slave so, whilst I am being fucked up the but, I'm still in a dominant position..." Is one degree of separation more than I care to go.



EligibleOwner,
quote:

ORIGINAL: EligibleOwner
quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
I think it was a bad choice of words EligibleOwner considering what I believe you were actually getting at.

Thanks. I don't think there was an issue with my choice of words, but I will have a think about that.

If you think that's the worst of it, though, and that I've not actually been "spreading homophobia" (which I've been accused of in this thread), I'd appreciate it if you said so.


I don't know about that. I've seen these type of labels thrown about a lot lately, by posters who don't seem to be able to entertain any opposing opinion without viewing it's owner in a belittling light.

It's happened to me at least three times over the last week... I'm just shaking my head at that...

But anyway, as far as homophobia being displayed, I don't really think so... Your choice of words and bolding, places you close to it but as frunandsins points out, you haven't given your opinion, but that of a hypothetical woman... But perhaps you could expand on this:
quote:

I think it's important to understand this "natural" aspect in, I think, many submissive women's feelings.

Natural is one of those hidden "land mine" words like true or real, but I'd be very interested in discovering what you mean by it.

*I just realised you've posted a lot since I wrote this, which I haven't gotten around to reading yet.*


< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 3/27/2014 1:41:37 PM >


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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 1:56:22 PM   
EligibleOwner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

as far as homophobia being displayed, I don't really think so...

Thank you. I don't think have got anywhere close to homophobia, to be honest, but it's good you agree with me at least that I've not crossed that line.

On "natural", please notice that there are, and always were, scare quotes around that word.

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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 2:04:28 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Ishtar,
Where do you fall on the subject of, dominant/submissive associations to some degree accompanying acts such as giving/receiving penetration?


I think dominance is related to power and influence over others and not act driven.

For example (yup I'm using Kana again, he's just going to become my example for everything) Kana mentioned on this thread that lw wouldn't take well to a man desiring to be penetrated anally. So if Kana could manage to command lw to do so anyways, without her thereupon feeling less secure with him as her partner, I'd consider that an act of sheer dominance.


"an act of sheer dominance..."
If an act can be associated with dominance or submission, then ipso facto its of course possible for an act to carry a dominant/submissive association.
So is that a "yes" with a "but"?


I should have been more clear. I consider the act of overriding her will and bending it to his own the act of dominance. Not the penetration. The penetration is neither dominant or submissive, within the context of what

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

To be honest, when this argument comes up it doesn't really convince me... The idea that "sure the slave is fucking my butt, but I command the slave so, whilst I am being fucked up the but, I'm still in a dominant position..." Is one degree of separation more than I care to go.



I find it interesting that you'd define something so many vanillas engage in without a hint of power structure to be 'submissive' but then again, I don't tend to asses behaviors lin that manner.

I've command slaves working for me in my garden from my knees digging in flower beds before... I don't see people's activities as either dominant or submissive, I see their interaction with each other as dominant or submissive.

Curious minds need to know: if, in the privacy of your own bedroom without anybody else around, you'd stick a dildo up your butt, would that be dominant, submissive, or neutral?

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 3/27/2014 2:05:09 PM >


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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 2:08:49 PM   
SailingBum


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Offers some friendly advice to EligibleOwner. You can waste a lot of time attempting to convince ppl that they have misconstrued your words. This medium is difficult <txt> to make a complicated point. I really try not to engage ppl that refuse to "listen"

BadOne


< Message edited by SailingBum -- 3/27/2014 2:11:48 PM >


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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 3:55:32 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EligibleOwner


quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

as far as homophobia being displayed, I don't really think so...

Thank you. I don't think have got anywhere close to homophobia, to be honest, but it's good you agree with me at least that I've not crossed that line.



I still don't see how it's not, but considering how many people seem to disagree, and the fact that English is my third language, I can admit that I'm probably wrong.

My apologies if I did indeed misinterpret your words, and I don't think there is a point in keep arguing about it -as you indicated in a previous post of yours- because I don't think the amount of time, effort and debate it would take to end up agreeing would be worth it.

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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 4:46:17 PM   
EligibleOwner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

I still don't see how it's not, but considering how many people seem to disagree, and the fact that English is my third language, I can admit that I'm probably wrong.

My apologies if I did indeed misinterpret your words, and I don't think there is a point in keep arguing about it -as you indicated in a previous post of yours- because I don't think the amount of time, effort and debate it would take to end up agreeing would be worth it.

Thank you.

I can see you still disagree with me, and that's fair enough – I expect and welcome disagreement. But most people are incapable of saying what you've just written, and the fact that you have done so shows a lot about your quality as a person.

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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 4:51:22 PM   
EligibleOwner


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I don't think we're going to agree. That's okay as far as I'm concerned.

But given what UllrsIshtar has said, I want to tell you that, if you felt my initial response was rough on you – I'm sorry.

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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 7:41:26 PM   
ARIES83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

...if Kana could manage to command lw to do so anyways, without her thereupon feeling less secure with him as her partner, I'd consider that an act of sheer dominance.


"an act of sheer dominance..."
If an act can be associated with dominance or submission, then ipso facto its of course possible for an act to carry a dominant/submissive association.
So is that a "yes" with a "but"?


I should have been more clear. I consider the act of overriding her will and bending it to his own the act of dominance. Not the penetration. The penetration is neither dominant or submissive, within the context of what


Not at all, you were quite clear. I was merely speaking in terms of what's possible. Not universally labelling something Dominant or Submissive behaviour, but establishing that a behaviour can carry such an association. Like kneeling! Which is a great example. Because its an act which obviously can be associated with submission. Is it by default a submissive act? Not at all, however it can be, and is associated with submission.

If someone says that whatever they are doing is in fact not submissive/dominant/gay/straight despite it being commonly associated with such. Well that's one thing. But to deny that something can carry with it such associations is... I duno, denial I guess, for lack of a better word.

quote:

Curious minds need to know: if, in the privacy of your own bedroom without anybody else around, you'd stick a dildo up your butt, would that be dominant, submissive, or neutral?


Curiosity is unbecoming of a knuffeltje.
Such a line of questioning might well land your butt in jeopardy of discovering just how a much dominance could be inflicted upon it, were it within reach...

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 3/27/2014 7:42:14 PM >


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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 7:46:32 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

quote:

Curious minds need to know: if, in the privacy of your own bedroom without anybody else around, you'd stick a dildo up your butt, would that be dominant, submissive, or neutral?


Curiosity is unbecoming of a knuffeltje.
Such a line of questioning might well land your butt in jeopardy of discovering just how a much dominance could be inflicted upon it, were it within reach...


Excuse me?

If you don't want to answer, then that's fine dude. But issuing threats against me for asking a question isn't appreciated...

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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 7:57:16 PM   
FightingChains


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That's called "Dominant Not Liking The Answer", UllrsIstar

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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 8:00:02 PM   
ARIES83


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Wasn't really a threat, more like playfully responding to the outlandishness of the question, as I would with any of my female friends.
But if it's not appreciated so be it, it won't happen again.

Also, I was under the impression knuffeltje meant something like cute, cuddly plaything in your native tounge. If I blundered and referred to you in a derogatory way or something, I apologise.

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 3/27/2014 8:16:34 PM >


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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 8:18:46 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Wasn't really a threat, more like playfully responding to the outlandishness of the question, as I would with any of my female friends.
But if it's not appreciated so be it, it won't happen again.

Also, I was under the impression knuffeltje meant something like cute, cuddly plaything in your native tounge. If I blundered and referred to you in a derogatory way or something, I apologise.


It means 'tiny teddy bear' or 'tiny cuddle' though it's not so much that which annoyed me, as it was the reference to curiosity being unbecoming in a kajira, and the implication that as a slave (which I am not fyi) I better shut my mouth of be punished for continuing the line of questioning you started.

Don't worry about it, I said it wasn't appreciated, and you didn't went into a hissy fit, tone can be hard to read in text, especially when you don't know a person personally, so we cool man.



How was the question outlandish though? You're asking me if I consider anal penetration dominant or submissive, now I'm trying to figure out the same thing about you. You've already indicating that you don't consider 'being fucked up the butt' a position of dominance, so now I'm trying to figure out if that's due to the submissive doing the acting or it being because of the act itself.

If you consider all anal penetration submissive, no matter whether its done by you yourself or not, then that answers my question immediate, and I didn't need to ask any of the below. If not, we get into interesting gray territory.

For example would a slave tied up in a mummification bag, so they are unable to even wiggle around, wearing a dildo gag be in a position of dominance over the Top satisfying themselves on the subs mouth?
If not, then where is the line?

What about if the sub is bound tightly, but still able to bob their head? Is it now an act of penetration that puts the position of power with the submissive?

How about if they sub is only has their wrists bound behind their back, is otherwise free to move, and is ordered to penetrate the top with a dildo gag? Is the act of penetration now dominant or not? Does it make a difference if the Top uses pain from say a cattle prod to force the reluctant sub to obey and complete the penetration?

What if the sub is not bound at all, and only is wearing the dildo gag? Is following the order to penetrate the Top now an act of dominance?

What if instead of wearing a dildo gag the sub is ordered to pick up a hand held dildo and penetrate the Top with that?

What if instead of using a manual dildo the sub is ordered to wear a strap-on?

Where does being penetrated become an act of submission if the Top is in control over the what, where, how and why? Is it the penetration itself that does it, or the fact that the sub is doing the manual labor?

And if it's the act of penetration itself that signifies submission, is it therefore impossible for a gay male Top to ever receive penetration from his slaves without loosing dominance? What about a lesbian female Top who enjoys vaginal and/or anal intercourse with her lovers by means of strap-ons? Can she be anally penetrated without being in a submissive position?
Are only straight male Tops unable to receive penetration in a dominant fashion? And if so, why?





< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 3/27/2014 8:41:18 PM >


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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 8:21:54 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 3/27/2014 8:22:13 PM >


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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 8:47:34 PM   
FightingChains


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Perhaps this comes from the concept that "only gay/bi men enjoy being penetrated analy" - in which case this would only be painful, and receiving pain is not a dominant thing - dominance is about taking what the dominant wants, not enduring pain that the sub wields....


Which just makes me think this gets all fucked up anyway for Dominant Masochists ha

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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/27/2014 10:00:23 PM   
frunandsins


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quote:

Perhaps this comes from the concept that "only gay/bi men enjoy being penetrated analy" - in which case this would only be painful, and receiving pain is not a dominant thing - dominance is about taking what the dominant wants, not enduring pain that the sub wields....


Well, if that were true for some Doms, then they are restricting their erotic psyche with unnecessary garbage, because they basically eliminated (heh, eliminated) anal sex from things that they can/may enjoy in order to maintain the status of a Dom according to some arbitrarily notion about a very simple sexual act. That sort of thinking comes across as rather insecure, if coming from a male Dom, and very bigoted coming from the hypothetical fem sub.

If a male Dom tries it and doens't like it, then that's a different story. But to categorically refuse to try it and to not allow oneself to perhaps enjoy it, all for the purpose of fitting someone else's notion of what "straight" and "Dom" means seems... not very Dom to me. If I put myself in the shoes of a putative submissive, I would find that lack of self-assurance to be more of a turn-off than finding out that my straight male Dom likes to have his prostate stimulated when he cums. I could also never fully respect a man who is such a... slave, to societal notions on anal sex. If we allow in the notion that straight men are not supposed to like anal sex (not sex with other men, but just anal sex), then why not also allow in the notion that pain should not be erotic, that partners must be equal in power, or any number of social limits on sexual expression that we violate gleefully every day? Clearly, we are all happy to transgress against social norms on sex, or we wouldn't be members here. So what, anal sex is the final frontier of man's sexual liberation? Gandalf is standing on the precipice, behind him the yawning chasm of male anal sex, and he strikes his staff unto the ground, declaiming to all the straight men, "Thou shalt not pass!" ?

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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/28/2014 3:37:36 AM   
FieryOpal


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Aries, this is not directed to you personally, or to any particular Dom. However, I am inspired by how UllrsIshtar framed her posits to present another set of hypothetical scenarios pertaining to a Dominant woman. According to the below schematic, where does Dominance end and alleged submission begin?

1. Bound or otherwise restrained sub wears dildo gag and Domme sits on his face to pleasure herself vaginally.

2. In above example, Domme then inches forward and uses sub to penetrate herself anally. Yes, this can be done.

3. Unrestrained sub wearing dildo gag is directed to face-fuck Domme vaginally, in whatever position.

4. Same as Item#3 above, whereupon sub is instructed to do same to her anally.

5. Sub uses dildo-vibrator to penetrate Domme vaginally at her behest.

6. Sub uses dildo-vibrator to penetrate Domme anally at her behest.

7. Sub is tied with bed restraints, and Domme starts to ride him cowgirl....

8. ... Said cowgirl-riding Domme shifts over to penetrate herself anally on bed-restrained sub.

7. After pleasuring Domme orally, sub gets green light to fuck Domme vaginally....

8. ... then Domme wants to take it up the butt doggie-style.

9. Domme has sub (with or without oral worship beforehand) rim her, then penetrate her vaginally.

10. Independent of optional step #9, Domme has sub rim her then penetrate her anally.

11. Same as Items 9 and/or 10 above, without rimming taking place.

At what point does the Domme no longer become the Dominant partner and, in your minds, turn into the alleged submissive partner? This is about Dominance/submission, irrespective of who is doing the Topping/bottoming. If one or more items is an act of submission by the Domme, at which point did the power shift occur and she was no longer in charge of the sub or in control of the sexual scene?


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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/28/2014 3:51:42 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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To be fair, I don't think Aries was implying that penetration can't be dominant in nature (unless I misunderstood him). He did say that for he himself, he wouldn't feel dominant being anally penetrated, which is a difference from projecting that reality onto others.

But -if it's not too personal Aries- it still leaves me with the hypothetical and the question of when exactly that feeling kicks in, and why, and what it's based on.

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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/28/2014 4:00:56 AM   
FieryOpal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

To be fair, I don't think Aries was implying that penetration can't be dominant in nature (unless I misunderstood him). He did say that for he himself, he wouldn't feel dominant being anally penetrated, which is a difference from projecting that reality onto others.

But -if it's not too personal Aries- it still leaves me with the hypothetical and the question of when exactly that feeling kicks in, and why, and what it's based on.

While this is absolutely true in our PoVs, there are those - both Dominants and submissive alike - who consider Dominance/submission to be directly tied (no pun) into who is doing the penetrating or being the active party and which one is playing the passive-receptive role.

I run into this dissonant argument periodically, even with Dommes themselves who fool themselves into thinking that by replacing a live cock with an inanimate object, they somehow circumvent this process. Or else, that they have to humiliate their subs in some fashion in order to assert their dominance.

If this isn't an issue for Aries, then his opinion is entirely gender-based.

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RE: Dominant men recieving strap-on sex? - 3/28/2014 4:20:22 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: frunandsins
Clearly, we are all happy to transgress against social norms on sex, or we wouldn't be members here. So what, anal sex is the final frontier of man's sexual liberation?


I think you really struck on something there. I do think that straight men having anal stimulation is one of the last taboos out there. Hell, even watersports seem to get more widespread acceptance that the idea that a straight dominant man could get himself off by means of assisted anal stimulation.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
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