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RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 2:28:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Two problems with this
A The police don't start off shooting the attacker they give him a chance to surrender, wouldn't the same procedure follow for the armed teacher?
B You are saying that the person shooting at the attacker is a greater threat to the children than the attacker.

A. I think that depends on whether it is an actual "active" shooting going on vs a hostage situation. If there are shots being fired the cops are going to shoot.

B. No I am not saying the educator is a greater threat than the shooter. I am saying the educator is at a much greater disadvantage than the shooter. The shooter most likely does not care who or how many he shoots. The teacher will have to be a good enough shot to pick off one person in a building full of panicked people; and it matters if he hits the wrong person. (but no pressure)

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 2:29:13 PM

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quote:

There are a bit over 132,000 schools in the US. The US averages about 12 school shootings per year. (sometimes less. This year has been quite a bit more but 12 is about average.) What are the odds that an armed teacher will stop (let alone actually ever encounter) a school shooter?

You're looking at that backwards.
If there are armed teachers in every school, there is a 100% chance that someone shooting up a school will encounter an armed teacher.

quote:

Its math. There is a cost-benefit to this

Again, you've got a point, but-
It's math, but it's also common sense. Suicides and homicides are just not very damned likely to occur as a result of letting trained teachers be armed. I just don't see Miss Brown killing little Johnny because he forgot his homework. Again!!! And I'm sure you don't either.
So- how many concealed weapons permits are there in the country, and how many accidental shootings were committed last year by a member of that group?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to MsMJAY)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 2:33:20 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Two problems with this
A The police don't start off shooting the attacker they give him a chance to surrender, wouldn't the same procedure follow for the armed teacher?
B You are saying that the person shooting at the attacker is a greater threat to the children than the attacker.

A. I think that depends on whether it is an actual "active" shooting going on vs a hostage situation. If there are shots being fired the cops are going to shoot.

B. No I am not saying the educator is a greater threat than the shooter. I am saying the educator is at a much greater disadvantage than the shooter. The shooter most likely does not care who or how many he shoots. The teacher will have to be a good enough shot to pick off one person in a building full of panicked people; and it matters if he hits the wrong person. (but no pressure)

A, in every case the cops have offered the chance to surrender.
B the attacker usually no in the middle off a crowd what with everyone trying to get away. Nobody I shoot with would have a problem making the shot.
In most cases if the teacher fired in the air the attacker would surrender or commit suicide putting an end to the problem.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MsMJAY)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 2:37:30 PM

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Yeah the firing in the air, thats good hallucination. How would that differ from just telling the guys out there in one of these shooting, hey, you shouldnt do that.

Look shot in the air, the fool is dead, that'll get him killed.

An adult with a gun a kid with a gun, who do you shoot as a cop? And dont say nobody.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 2:39:01 PM

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quote:

I am saying the educator is at a much greater disadvantage than the shooter.

Are you trained in the use of handguns? I ask because you make excellent points, and in a calm manner. Anyone loathe to kill is at something of a disadvantage when facing someone lusting to do so.
The above quote is often true of any armed citizen in a crowded situation, including police officers. Great restraint must be used, and a certain minimum amount of training is useful.
First, making your presence known gives nearby innocents a chance to scatter or get down (granted, it may also put you at greater risk. Cover and concealment- always, cover and concealment}.
Second- get low. If you are shooting up you are shooting over anyone behind your target..... (That's rarely taught, but damned useful nonetheless).

< Message edited by truckinslave -- 12/23/2013 2:40:21 PM >

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to MsMJAY)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 2:56:09 PM

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Actually I do not think it would significantly effect the number. In some instances it might even increase it. (suicide by teacher) We are not speaking of rational people who would think like a normal person. Most school shooters do long term planning and go into it knowing they are going to die. They are just determined to take some people with them.

And btw- who decides if the teachers carrying are or are not responsible enough to possess a firearm and how is it determined? Did we not just have an incident last year where a teacher thought it was a good idea to bring a gun and fire blanks at his students? I think he was charged with multiple felonies.

In general this is new territory with no research to back it up. So all of this is speculation, but it needs to be considered. If schools choose to allow teachers to be armed, that's fine but it should not be just a knee jerk reaction to fear of school shootings. It should be something that is well thought out with input from all stakeholders (faculty, insurance providers, parents, local law enforcement and even students) and there should be many policies and rules in place before implementing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
What are the odds that an armed school teacher will stop (let alone actually encounter) a school shooter?

They've already been stopped in a few instances and at a church and other places someone mentioned in another post on this thread. I find there are a number of states that allow concealed carry in schools. If there has ever been a mishap or a shooting where the armed teacher was shot down it would have been all over the news.

What if there were armed teachers in every single school in the nation ? What if almost every single time an active shooter was stopped before he could shoot any one or before it turned into a total bloodbath ? What if once the word gets out that if an idiot comes into a school trying to shoot the place up, he's going to meet armed resistance somewhere along the way ? Do you think that average of 12 a year might be dramatically reduced of even go to zero ?

(in reply to lovmuffin)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 2:58:20 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah the firing in the air, thats good hallucination. How would that differ from just telling the guys out there in one of these shooting, hey, you shouldnt do that.

Look shot in the air, the fool is dead, that'll get him killed.

An adult with a gun a kid with a gun, who do you shoot as a cop? And dont say nobody.

Virtually every shooter has surrendered or committed suicide as soon as they found out they were not the only one with a gun.
And I was not saying that would be the advised action on the part on the educator.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 12/23/2013 2:59:55 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:01:15 PM

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well lets go with the exactly numbers, not the virtual ones, and how did they find out they werent the only one with a gun?

Cuz by cops, it is twofold, won't give the cops the satisfaction, and they made their point.

A teacher firing in the air, or known to carry guns in the school will be more of a target, and a dead one.

The perps knowing that will not be a suicidal idea for the perp, it will for the teacher.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:15:40 PM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

well lets go with the exactly numbers, not the virtual ones, and how did they find out they werent the only one with a gun?

Cuz by cops, it is twofold, won't give the cops the satisfaction, and they made their point.

A teacher firing in the air, or known to carry guns in the school will be more of a target, and a dead one.

The perps knowing that will not be a suicidal idea for the perp, it will for the teacher.

you are entitled to your opinion.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:21:42 PM

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From: Somewhere Texas
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Just spit balling here, but wouldn't it be better to stop the guns from actually getting into the schools?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:21:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

There are a bit over 132,000 schools in the US. The US averages about 12 school shootings per year. (sometimes less. This year has been quite a bit more but 12 is about average.) What are the odds that an armed teacher will stop (let alone actually ever encounter) a school shooter?

You're looking at that backwards.
If there are armed teachers in every school, there is a 100% chance that someone shooting up a school will encounter an armed teacher.

quote:

Its math. There is a cost-benefit to this

Again, you've got a point, but-
It's math, but it's also common sense. Suicides and homicides are just not very damned likely to occur as a result of letting trained teachers be armed. I just don't see Miss Brown killing little Johnny because he forgot his homework. Again!!! And I'm sure you don't either.
So- how many concealed weapons permits are there in the country, and how many accidental shootings were committed last year by a member of that group?

I am not sure there are any numbers regarding the concealed permits but from the news reports there does seem to be an increase in accidental (or just plain stupid) shootings since open carry has been hyped. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 2 recent incidents where a home owner shot a person outside of their door who needed help and were causing no threat. Not to mention the idiots who opened fire on the highway or pulled over to kill each other at the car wash.

No a teacher would not shoot johnny for forgetting his homework, but physical confrontations between teachers and students happen a lot more frequently than most people realize. I'll have to find the study but about 80% of teachers surveyed said they had been harassed, intimidated or assaulted by a student. Do you think some of those teachers if armed would not pull that gun on a student that gets in their face and threatens them with bodily harm? Justified or not the minute a teacher shoots (or even pulls a loaded gun on) an unarmed student that changes everything.

(in reply to truckinslave)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:23:25 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Just spit balling here, but wouldn't it be better to stop the guns from actually getting into the schools?

Duh
Peace on Earth and an end to poverty would also be nice.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:27:15 PM

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How?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:32:55 PM

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
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quote:

I'll have to find the study but about 80% of teachers surveyed said they had been harassed, intimidated or assaulted by a student. Do you think some of those teachers if armed would not pull that gun on a student that gets in their face and threatens them with bodily harm? Justified or not the minute a teacher shoots (or even pulls a loaded gun on) an unarmed student that changes everything.

First- yes, it might well change everything, including how often students harass, intimidate, or assault teachers.

Second- a teacher with a student in their face threatening bodily harm has a right to self-defense; and, in some cases, the right to armed self-defense. I see no problem with teachers having the same rights on school grounds that my wife has at the mall.....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to MsMJAY)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:38:48 PM

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Joined: 3/17/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

I am saying the educator is at a much greater disadvantage than the shooter.

Are you trained in the use of handguns? I ask because you make excellent points, and in a calm manner.

Yes I am very well trained in fire arms. And I am calm because I understand both sides of this issue.

Our own school district has School Resource Officers. They are armed law enforcement officers who had to have least 3 years experience as a regular cop on the streets. They then had to undergo an additional training school to be certified to work in a school environment. There is a class that teachers or principals can take to become a "designee" School Safety Officer and they would be allowed to carry a gun. In all the years that the program has been in place only two faculty members (one coach, one vice principal) have done it. I don't think either one of them are still working for the school district now. Our school district has never had a school shooting but most people have no idea how many close calls there have been.

edited to correct "Student Resource Officers" with "School Resource Officers"

< Message edited by MsMJAY -- 12/23/2013 3:51:31 PM >

(in reply to truckinslave)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:45:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

I'll have to find the study but about 80% of teachers surveyed said they had been harassed, intimidated or assaulted by a student. Do you think some of those teachers if armed would not pull that gun on a student that gets in their face and threatens them with bodily harm? Justified or not the minute a teacher shoots (or even pulls a loaded gun on) an unarmed student that changes everything.

First- yes, it might well change everything, including how often students harass, intimidate, or assault teachers.

Second- a teacher with a student in their face threatening bodily harm has a right to self-defense; and, in some cases, the right to armed self-defense. I see no problem with teachers having the same rights on school grounds that my wife has at the mall.....

And THAT is another reason why so many people are against arming teachers. They believe that underneath all of that, some teachers will use it as an excuse to intimidate or even kill unarmed students because they perceive them to be a threat. (And aren't all black teenage boys a threat?)

(in reply to truckinslave)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:48:47 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

I'll have to find the study but about 80% of teachers surveyed said they had been harassed, intimidated or assaulted by a student. Do you think some of those teachers if armed would not pull that gun on a student that gets in their face and threatens them with bodily harm? Justified or not the minute a teacher shoots (or even pulls a loaded gun on) an unarmed student that changes everything.

First- yes, it might well change everything, including how often students harass, intimidate, or assault teachers.

Second- a teacher with a student in their face threatening bodily harm has a right to self-defense; and, in some cases, the right to armed self-defense. I see no problem with teachers having the same rights on school grounds that my wife has at the mall.....

And THAT is another reason why so many people are against arming teachers. They believe that underneath all of that, some teachers will use it as an excuse to intimidate or even kill unarmed students because they perceive them to be a threat. (And aren't all black teenage boys a threat?)

That statement reeks of bias

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MsMJAY)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:49:44 PM

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Yes it would..... if it was that easy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Just spit balling here, but wouldn't it be better to stop the guns from actually getting into the schools?

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:50:57 PM

Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

I'll have to find the study but about 80% of teachers surveyed said they had been harassed, intimidated or assaulted by a student. Do you think some of those teachers if armed would not pull that gun on a student that gets in their face and threatens them with bodily harm? Justified or not the minute a teacher shoots (or even pulls a loaded gun on) an unarmed student that changes everything.

First- yes, it might well change everything, including how often students harass, intimidate, or assault teachers.

Second- a teacher with a student in their face threatening bodily harm has a right to self-defense; and, in some cases, the right to armed self-defense. I see no problem with teachers having the same rights on school grounds that my wife has at the mall.....

And THAT is another reason why so many people are against arming teachers. They believe that underneath all of that, some teachers will use it as an excuse to intimidate or even kill unarmed students because they perceive them to be a threat. (And aren't all black teenage boys a threat?)

That statement reeks of bias

Yes. I know.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Anotther school shooting. - 12/23/2013 3:57:23 PM

Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Just spit balling here, but wouldn't it be better to stop the guns from actually getting into the schools?

Duh
Peace on Earth and an end to poverty would also be nice.

Bama I was not attacking you, I apologize if it seemed that way.

I was trying to get some of these folks to understand that the inner city schools have been pretty successful at keeping weapons out of schools, granted it means metal detectors, an armed police presence, and other things.

Granted, in the 80's it was usually one African American male shooting another African American male or Hispanic shooting a Hispanic, or African American shooting a Hispanic and Hispanic shooting an African American.

Clearly the problem is that White Anglo American kids are getting shot now.

Seriously, when the gun crimes just involved gangs and was limited to the inner cities, not too many people on capital hill said much. It was only after it began to happen in the suburbs did congress and the senate go batshit crazy.

Seriously, when it was gang related, it was looked at with the same opinion as the various groups of in Africa killing each other. Which is why I see this "ban guns" movement a bit of too little too late.

Yes we need better regulations, and yes the ATF needs to get its teeth back, and to be honest, considering armed police are in the local schools here and there has been no school shootings locally in god knows how long if ever, put em in every school. Put up metal detectors, and considering the drug problems among our teens, put drug dogs at the entrances. Why stop at weapons?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to BamaD)

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