quote:

(And aren't all black teenage boys a threat?)

quote:

80% of teachers surveyed said they had been harassed, intimidated or assaulted

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

(And aren't all black teenage boys a threat?)

quote:

80% of teachers surveyed said they had been harassed, intimidated or assaulted

Should teachers have more rights, fewer rights, or the same rights at school than my wife has at the mall?

Should students who have to put up with the same type of bullying, harassment and assaults, have more rights, fewer rights or the same rights that your wife has at the mall? If an adult is so afraid of a teen bully that they need a gun to defend themselves how is a child in that same situation at school going to feel?

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Nice dodge.

Did you swerve into a place where there are a lot of "children" who should never be allowed to step into a ("normal", public) school?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jif1961
and yes the ATF needs to get its teeth back

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: jif1961
and yes the ATF needs to get its teeth back

There are reasons the ATF lost their teeth. They have a history of harassing innocent gun owners and going after gun owners and dealers for trivial violations. Add to that, Randy Weaver, Waco, Fast and Furious. Why do you think they got stuck with the term "jack booted thugs" ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Just spit balling here, but wouldn't it be better to stop the guns from actually getting into the schools?

Duh
Peace on Earth and an end to poverty would also be nice.

Bama I was not attacking you, I apologize if it seemed that way.

I was trying to get some of these folks to understand that the inner city schools have been pretty successful at keeping weapons out of schools, granted it means metal detectors, an armed police presence, and other things.

Granted, in the 80's it was usually one African American male shooting another African American male or Hispanic shooting a Hispanic, or African American shooting a Hispanic and Hispanic shooting an African American.

Clearly the problem is that White Anglo American kids are getting shot now.

Seriously, when the gun crimes just involved gangs and was limited to the inner cities, not too many people on capital hill said much. It was only after it began to happen in the suburbs did congress and the senate go batshit crazy.

Seriously, when it was gang related, it was looked at with the same opinion as the various groups of in Africa killing each other. Which is why I see this "ban guns" movement a bit of too little too late.

Yes we need better regulations, and yes the ATF needs to get its teeth back, and to be honest, considering armed police are in the local schools here and there has been no school shootings locally in god knows how long if ever, put em in every school. Put up metal detectors, and considering the drug problems among our teens, put drug dogs at the entrances. Why stop at weapons?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: jif1961
and yes the ATF needs to get its teeth back

There are reasons the ATF lost their teeth. They have a history of harassing innocent gun owners and going after gun owners and dealers for trivial violations. Add to that, Randy Weaver, Waco, Fast and Furious. Why do you think they got stuck with the term "jack booted thugs" ?

Ruby Ridge was not an ATF operation, the US Marshal service was trying to serve a warrant. Waco would not have happened if some nutjob who believed he was Jesus Christ would have let the authorities serve a search warrant. Sorry, if you dont have anything to hide, what is the fucking problem?

Fast and Furious was a good idea on paper (key words- on paper) but was flawed in execution.

And the ATF lost its teeth long before either of the first two happened.

As for harassing gun owners and dealers for trivial violations, you may be right, it is not necessary for gun dealers to keep records of who they sold weapons to, or maybe selling an illegal weapon, or a weapon without the proper forms filed. I worked for a gun dealer for a few years. The only time we had an ATF agent in the store was not a hassle. Some well meaning idiot reported my employer was selling weapons illegally that required a NFA registration.

What we were selling were semi auto uzi's and an updated version of the 9mm sten gun. It took the agent all of two hours to figure out it was a bogus complaint by someone who could not tell a semi auto from a full auto.

I am own guns, a number of them, and I fully support giving the ATF the ability to enforce the fucking laws they are responsible for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Yeah. Janet Reno did us soooo proud.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Yeah. Janet Reno did us soooo proud.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: jif1961
and yes the ATF needs to get its teeth back

There are reasons the ATF lost their teeth. They have a history of harassing innocent gun owners and going after gun owners and dealers for trivial violations. Add to that, Randy Weaver, Waco, Fast and Furious. Why do you think they got stuck with the term "jack booted thugs" ?

Ruby Ridge was not an ATF operation, the US Marshal service was trying to serve a warrant. Waco would not have happened if some nutjob who believed he was Jesus Christ would have let the authorities serve a search warrant. Sorry, if you dont have anything to hide, what is the fucking problem?

Fast and Furious was a good idea on paper (key words- on paper) but was flawed in execution.

And the ATF lost its teeth long before either of the first two happened.

As for harassing gun owners and dealers for trivial violations, you may be right, it is not necessary for gun dealers to keep records of who they sold weapons to, or maybe selling an illegal weapon, or a weapon without the proper forms filed. I worked for a gun dealer for a few years. The only time we had an ATF agent in the store was not a hassle. Some well meaning idiot reported my employer was selling weapons illegally that required a NFA registration.

What we were selling were semi auto uzi's and an updated version of the 9mm sten gun. It took the agent all of two hours to figure out it was a bogus complaint by someone who could not tell a semi auto from a full auto.

I am own guns, a number of them, and I fully support giving the ATF the ability to enforce the fucking laws they are responsible for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

A warrant based on FBI entrapment (still not ATF).
Waco also would not have happened if instead of grandstanding ATF had waited till Saturday and picked up Koresh(sp?) when he made his weekly grocery run.
Fast and Furious had already been proven to be a bad idea by Wide Receiver.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Try 80 teachers per 1,000 students (schools teach more than one subject these days), plus administrators, plus the people I listed below. 12 to run the cafeteria, the physical plant, transportation, and all clerical? Nope, doesn't add up.

And bus drivers, etc. aren't employees? Says who?

And none of that addresses the fact that even a smaller pool of armed people with only CCW training, are more dangerous to everyone else during an active shooter situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

And for every hundred teachers, how many coaches, bus drivers, maintenance people, clerical staff, and so on?

The worst case scenario is still undesirable with even a handful of untrained people, especially the very people who would think that their 16 hours CCW class equipped the to be effective is n active shooter situation.

Part of the overall US gun culture is a widespread belief that all American males are born experts at driving, lovemaking, holding their liquor, and conquering evil in a crisis...

Reality disagrees.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Why do you think that 20 - 30 is an unreasonable number to have carry permits?

I'm not envisioning the little red schoolhouse, I'm talking about a school of 1,000 or more kids, and a hundred or more employees.

As far as track record, I only know that Arkansas passed such a law, and most schools in that state opted out on a faculty vote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.

Statistically with 100 teachers no more than 4 or 5 would be expected to have permits.
When you consider that educators tend to be liberal it could be even less.

For starters with 1000 students you would have not more than 40 teachers, to be generous 1 dozen more for clerical and maintenance , bus drivers don't count.
That gives us 52 people. Only about 5% of people get permits so you have maybe 3.

Double the staff ok. That brigs you up to six or seven eligible to carry.
Sure bus drivers are employees, but they don't count in this conversation because thy don't work INSIDE the schools.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Yeah. Janet Reno did us soooo proud.

Ruby Ridge was during Bush sr. Sorry to burst your blame the liberal bubble.

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

I'm not sure what schools you are talking about. I'm used to seeing a good sized school have it's own bus garage which puts the drivers on campus 2 to 3 hours a day while checking in and checking out.

And one more time, it isn't the range of possible numbers that causes the worst case scenario, it is that a CCW doesn't prepare people to handle an active shooter situation without a large risk of making things worse

If it's 3 or 30 armed employees, in order to minimize the chance for things to go wrong, there needs to be a much higher level of training than a CCW class offers, and a much higher level of coordination than acting independently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Try 80 teachers per 1,000 students (schools teach more than one subject these days), plus administrators, plus the people I listed below. 12 to run the cafeteria, the physical plant, transportation, and all clerical? Nope, doesn't add up.

And bus drivers, etc. aren't employees? Says who?

And none of that addresses the fact that even a smaller pool of armed people with only CCW training, are more dangerous to everyone else during an active shooter situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

And for every hundred teachers, how many coaches, bus drivers, maintenance people, clerical staff, and so on?

The worst case scenario is still undesirable with even a handful of untrained people, especially the very people who would think that their 16 hours CCW class equipped the to be effective is n active shooter situation.

Part of the overall US gun culture is a widespread belief that all American males are born experts at driving, lovemaking, holding their liquor, and conquering evil in a crisis...

Reality disagrees.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: EdBowie

Why do you think that 20 - 30 is an unreasonable number to have carry permits?

I'm not envisioning the little red schoolhouse, I'm talking about a school of 1,000 or more kids, and a hundred or more employees.

As far as track record, I only know that Arkansas passed such a law, and most schools in that state opted out on a faculty vote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

You're probably right about spending the money. If we dropped the gun free zones designations and just let school employees who have permits carry, there wouldn't be any additional costs. However if this is adopted by most schools, I'm sure some Zimmerman type of fuck up would eventually happen though certainly nothing to the extent of 30 teachers running around waving guns.

Now I'm curious what the history has been with the 3 states and parts of Texas that have been allowing concealed carry in their schools. I believe Utah has recently approved it and it's under consideration in other states.

Statistically with 100 teachers no more than 4 or 5 would be expected to have permits.
When you consider that educators tend to be liberal it could be even less.

For starters with 1000 students you would have not more than 40 teachers, to be generous 1 dozen more for clerical and maintenance , bus drivers don't count.
That gives us 52 people. Only about 5% of people get permits so you have maybe 3.

Double the staff ok. That brigs you up to six or seven eligible to carry.
Sure bus drivers are employees, but they don't count in this conversation because thy don't work INSIDE the schools.

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

(And aren't all black teenage boys a threat?)

quote:

80% of teachers surveyed said they had been harassed, intimidated or assaulted

Should teachers have more rights, fewer rights, or the same rights at school than my wife has at the mall?